Avengers Campus: E-Watch! (Waiting on the new ride)

[Disney Analyst]

Yes, I think we're all agreed the narrow service road and current backstage buildings will be unaffected by Infinity Defense/Stark Fight Lab. Yet just like the same types of facilities were affected by SWGE and will likely be affected by Coco (and are affected countless times across all of Disney's global theme parks when they need the space for expansion), I'm excited by for these area's potential for attraction-capacity expansion use in the years to come.

The coaster footprint I showed displacing all those backstage buildings but of course they could use just the northern 80,000 sq. ft. or so of what I show (which is enough), or some of the Hyperion plaza/footprint to the north instead, allowing them to retain some backstage space for a modern cast office building at the southeast. That could be around 15,000-18,000 sq. ft. footprint, three to four levels, something like this building in Irvine. It would be a roughly $50 million project or about 10% of the cost of the coaster.
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Taking upcoming Avatar and Coco into account, the E-tickets will be distributed rather evenly all around the perimeter of the park, just like the most high-trafficked grocery items are distributed around the perimeter of a supermarket (produce, meat, dairy). That sucks traffic off to the far corners of the park, as desired. I don't see a problem. And if adding more (a coaster) to that eastern side is perceived as an issue, given that the Simba lot is hanging out there for possible use to the far west, doesn't that offer some potential balance?

That wall that looks to be the northern edge of the new development retains some space to the north (behind the Avenger's building) that's interesting. I'm hoping the entrance to a coaster is the Avenger's building facade with an Indy-like path/tunnel just outside that wall, and wraps around Mission Breakout (leaving whatever access/emergency vehicle space is necessary for MB), with a 20:1 slope so it has a 14-foot clearance over the backstage area/service road.

I am pretty sure that wall will eventually connect into the back of the avengers HQ, as the entrance for the ride is supposed to be just behind that building, based on the concept art.

 

[mickEblu]

Yes, I think we're all agreed the narrow service road and current backstage buildings will be unaffected by Infinity Defense/Stark Fight Lab. Yet just like the same types of facilities were affected by SWGE and will likely be affected by Coco (and are affected countless times across all of Disney's global theme parks when they need the space for expansion), I'm excited by for these area's potential for attraction-capacity expansion use in the years to come.

The coaster footprint I showed displacing all those backstage buildings but of course they could use just the northern 80,000 sq. ft. or so of what I show (which is enough), or some of the Hyperion plaza/footprint to the north instead, allowing them to retain some backstage space for a modern cast office building at the southeast. That could be around 15,000-18,000 sq. ft. footprint, three to four levels, something like this building in Irvine. It would be a roughly $50 million project or about 10% of the cost of the coaster.
View attachment 890092View attachment 890095

Taking upcoming Avatar and Coco into account, the E-tickets will be distributed rather evenly all around the perimeter of the park, just like the most high-trafficked grocery items are distributed around the perimeter of a supermarket (produce, meat, dairy). That sucks traffic off to the far corners of the park, as desired. I don't see a problem. And if adding more (a coaster) to that eastern side is perceived as an issue, given that the Simba lot is hanging out there for possible use to the far west, doesn't that offer some potential balance?

That wall that looks to be the northern edge of the new development retains some space to the north (behind the Avenger's building) that's interesting. I'm hoping the entrance to a coaster is the Avenger's building facade with an Indy-like path/tunnel just outside that wall, and wraps around Mission Breakout (leaving whatever access/emergency vehicle space is necessary for MB), with a 20:1 slope so it has a 14-foot clearance over the backstage area/service road.

Not that it’s impossible but would a narrow building like that really be ideal for a coaster? Maybe the ol Spider-Man pendulum ride going through the city streets instead?

 

[DrStarlander]

Not that it’s impossible but would a narrow building like that really be ideal for a coaster? Maybe the ol Spider-Man pendulum ride going through the city streets instead?

Actually I think it's perfect for a suspended coaster flying down a street (or multiple parallel streets). It could be forced perspective (wide at top, narrow at bottom, tiny cars moving on streets "far below"). We could see Spidey projected in moonlight silhouette swinging alongside us on the building's walls. Here's the USH backlot as an example of how a narrow street could be used. We'd whip around the Daily Bugle building at one end (seeing a scene in office), a villain scene at the other, etc. A real showstopper themed coaster.

 

[mickEblu]

Actually I think it's perfect for a suspended coaster flying down a street (or multiple parallel streets). It could be forced perspective (wide at top, narrow at bottom, tiny cars moving on streets "far below"). We could see Spidey projected in moonlight silhouette swinging alongside us on the building's walls. Here's the USH backlot as an example of how a narrow street could be used. We'd whip around the Daily Bugle building at one end (seeing a scene in office), a villain scene at the other, etc. A real showstopper themed coaster.
View attachment 890116

I think it could work but I’m not sure I’d say it would be perfect or ideal. So like Rocket Rods style? Fast on the straightaway’s and then slow down for the turns?

 

[Disney Irish]

Actually I think it's perfect for a suspended coaster flying down a street (or multiple parallel streets). It could be forced perspective (wide at top, narrow at bottom, tiny cars moving on streets "far below"). We could see Spidey projected in moonlight silhouette swinging alongside us on the building's walls. Here's the USH backlot as an example of how a narrow street could be used. We'd whip around the Daily Bugle building at one end (seeing a scene in office), a villain scene at the other, etc. A real showstopper themed coaster.
View attachment 890116

Do you have a real world example of any theme park/amusement park using such a space for an actual coaster build and not just a pie-in-the-sky idea but an actual functioning coaster?

 

[Disney Irish]

I think it could work but I’m not sure I’d say it would be perfect or ideal. So like Rocket Rods style? Fast on the straightaway’s and then slow down for the turns?

Doesn’t sound ideal to me either, it wouldn’t be a traditional coaster to say the least.

 

[DrStarlander]

I think it could work but I’m not sure I’d say it would be perfect or ideal. So like Rocket Rods style? Fast on the straightaway’s and then slow down for the turns?

I think what people would want from a Spider-Man coaster (and what's perfect for a themed Disney coaster) is something fast, swooping, smooth and flowy, like you're flying. The building would be about 40 meters wide so here's an at-speed turn in 30m, so I don't think it needs to slow necessarily to turn around.

Do you have a real world example of any theme park/amusement park using such a space for an actual coaster build and not just a pie-in-the-sky idea but an actual functioning coaster?

First, wouldn't the same thing have been said about pie-in-the-sky ideas of Matterhorn or Space Mountain?

Many out and back coasters occupy narrow slice of land for much of the coaster with multiple parallel tracks and the issue is turning them around and at what speed, as addressed above. And for putting a coaster inside a building, do I need to provide examples?

Doesn’t sound ideal to me either, it wouldn’t be a traditional coaster to say the least.

There are hundreds of coasters offering wide-ranging experiences. Is Hiccups Wing Gliders or Seven Dwarfs Mine Train traditional coasters? No, and good for it. A themed coaster should uniquely bring to life the theme, or the IP. It doesn't need to be, and shouldn't probably, be traditional. Other parks in So. Cal. offer traditional coasters.

 

[Disney Irish]

I think what people would want from a Spider-Man coaster (and what's perfect for a themed Disney coaster) is something fast, swooping, smooth and flowy, like you're flying. The building would be about 40 meters wide so here's an at-speed turn in 30m, so I don't think it needs to slow necessarily to turn around.
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I think guests would also want a few loops and/or cork screws in there too to get the experience of Spidey flipping in the air, so it can't just be low and "flowy".

First, wouldn't the same thing have been said about pie-in-the-sky ideas of Matterhorn or Space Mountain?

We're many years and many generations of coaster builds away from when Matterhorn or Space Mountain were built. Consumers now have a certain expectation when it comes to coasters.

Many out and back coasters occupy narrow slice of land for much of the coaster with multiple parallel tracks and the issue is turning them around and at what speed, as addressed above. And for putting a coaster inside a building, do I need to provide examples?

An "out and back" coaster would be pretty boring in my opinion in this situation.

There are hundreds of coasters offering wide-ranging experiences. Is Hiccups Wing Gliders or Seven Dwarfs Mine Train traditional coasters? No, and good for it. A themed coaster should uniquely bring to life the theme, or the IP. It doesn't need to be, and shouldn't probably, be traditional. Other parks in So. Cal. offer traditional coasters.
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Sure, but again I think when people think of Spider-Man theme for a coaster something like a mine train or an "up and back" coaster wouldn't fit their expectation. Again a larger coaster with cork screws and loops would be more on what I would expect for a Spidey coaster.

Also, and this should be pointed out so people understand and don't get confused, there is no indication that Disney is even planning (even in blue sky) a Spidey coaster at this point.

 

[DrStarlander]

I think guests would also want a few loops and/or cork screws in there too to get the experience of Spidey flipping in the air, so it can't just be low and "flowy".

It can have features like that, there's room. But I'm not sure it needs inversions for the IP and target audience. But I don't care if it has them either.

We're many years and many generations of coaster builds away from when Matterhorn or Space Mountain were built. Consumers now have a certain expectation when it comes to coasters.

My point was that just because there wasn't a readily available exact example, it didn't prevent Disney from doing something...the point was not that this attraction would replicate those coasters. Again, coasters range significantly. But anyway, while not a fast coaster, Arthur at Europa Park is a significantly indoor suspended coaster with show scenes (no inversions) and it's fantastic and very popular.

An "out and back" coaster would be pretty boring in my opinion in this situation.

It wouldn't need to be "just" an out and back, but the point was that coasters can fit a narrow footprint. Lots of action is possible still.

Sure, but again I think when people think of Spider-Man theme for a coaster something like a mine train or an "up and back" coaster wouldn't fit their expectation. Again a larger coaster with cork screws and loops would be more on what I would expect for a Spidey coaster.

Also, and this should be pointed out so people understand and don't get confused, there is no indication that Disney is even planning (even in blue sky) a Spidey coaster at this point.

Lot's of potential for track features and thematic environments. For example, here is a cross section at scale (2' grid) of a coaster building that could fit. Coaster could swing down city street, over building rooftops, through a subway tunnel at an oncoming train, and through a factory/warehouse with villain activity -- all through partitioning the space to create thematic channels.

 

[Disney Irish]

It can have features like that, there's room. But I'm not sure it needs inversions for the IP and target audience. But I don't care if it has them either.

Who is the target audience that you think would be wanting such a ride? To me it would be teens and adults who expect more thrills such as inversions with loops and cork screws. Again the idea is to flip and spin through the air like they see Spidey do on-screen, can't experience that unless you have some sort of inversion.

My point was that just because there wasn't a readily available exact example, it didn't prevent Disney from doing something...the point was not that this attraction would replicate those coasters. Again, coasters range significantly. But anyway, while not a fast coaster, Arthur at Europa Park is a significantly indoor suspended coaster with show scenes (no inversions) and it's fantastic and very popular.

It wouldn't need to be "just" an out and back, but the point was that coasters can fit a narrow footprint. Lots of action is possible still.

Sure there are many coaster profiles that can fit in that space, a wild mouse for example. But a wild mouse is not what I would expect when I hear a Spider-Man coaster. And I don't expect any theoretical Spider-Man coaster in some hypothetical future to be in a small footprint either. I think any Spider coaster would be more akin to Cosmic Rewind in terms of footprint. And would have a height restriction of 48", which would means something like Arthur would be out.

Lot's of potential for track features and thematic environments. For example, here is a cross section at scale (2' grid) of a coaster building that could fit. Coaster could swing down city street, over building rooftops, through a subway tunnel at an oncoming train, and through a factory/warehouse with villain activity -- all through partitioning the space to create thematic channels.
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You have an interesting idea, I just don't know if Spidey is the right IP for it. This would be more what I expect from the Monsters coaster coming to WDW.

 

[DrStarlander]

Who is the target audience that you think would be wanting such a ride? To me it would be teens and adults who expect more thrills such as inversions with loops and cork screws. Again the idea is to flip and spin through the air like they see Spidey do on-screen, can't experience that unless you have some sort of inversion.

Families: coaster age/size kids all the way to some grandparents. This is like RSR, Big Thunder, Space Mountain...it's core Disney. Yes it would likely be similar to the Monsters door coaster. DCA does not need another intimidating coaster, it needs a themed family coaster. Spidey is a massively broad IP familiar to generations.

Sure there are many coaster profiles that can fit in that space, a wild mouse for example. But a wild mouse is not what I would expect when I hear a Spider-Man coaster. And I don't expect any theoretical Spider-Man coaster in some hypothetical future to be in a small footprint either. I think any Spider coaster would be more akin to Cosmic Rewind in terms of footprint. And would have a height restriction of 48", which would means something like Arthur would be out.

You actually could fit 10 Wild Mouse coasters in this volume. This box is bigger than some other indoor Disney coasters.

 

[Disney Irish]

Families: coaster age/size kids all the way to some grandparents. This is like RSR, Big Thunder, Space Mountain...it's core Disney. Yes it would likely be similar to the Monsters door coaster. DCA does not need another intimidating coaster, it needs a themed family coaster. Spidey is a massively broad IP familiar to generations.

Disagree, while I personally don't need the thrill myself, I think DLR as a whole could use another coaster like Incredicoaster. And Spidey would be a perfect IP for it in my opinion. DLR already has a few of "family" coasters with BLRR, Matterhorn, Gadgets, and even Space Mountain. And I expect they will be building something like the Oaken's from HKDL built out in one of the DLForward expansion slots.

You actually could fit 10 Wild Mouse coasters in this volume. This box is bigger than some other indoor Disney coasters.

I think that is an over exaggeration, 2-3 Wild Mouse of the same size as Goofy's in the opposite corner, maybe.

 

[DrStarlander]

I think DLR as a whole could use another coaster like Incredicoaster.

Then put that in DL, maybe in SWGE. DCA needs one themed family coaster, it has zero. Magic Kingdom is getting its 5th and its not five times the attendance of DCA, it's not even twice the attendance. DHS is getting its third.

I think that is an over exaggeration, 2-3 Wild Mouse of the same size as Goofy's in the opposite corner, maybe.

No, Goofy's is 18,000 sq. ft., so 5 fit the footprint, and you can stack them two tall (two 60' building floors). Magic Mouse coasters range from 42' to 55' high. So 10 within the volume of building I showed.

 

[Disney Irish]

Then put that in DL, maybe in SWGE. DCA needs one themed family coaster, it has zero. Magic Kingdom is getting its 5th and its not five times the attendance of DCA, it's not even twice the attendance. DHS is getting its third.

I think Disney is looking at the whole resort not just a single Park. So in my opinion they aren't seeing DCA as needing a specific ride profile, but rather the whole resort. So as long as they add something like Oaken's in some plot they aren't seeing that DCA specific "needs" it.

Also just because another resort gets multiple of some type of ride doesn't mean that DCA specifically going to get the same thing.

Also also I think we're putting the cart before the horse here. There is no indication that Disney is even looking at this area for future development.

No, Goofy's is 18,000 sq. ft., so 5 fit the footprint, and you can stack them two tall (two 60' building floors). Magic Mouse coasters range from 42' to 55' high. So 10 within the volume of building I showed.

Which building? This building?

Only one would fit, maybe two if you stack them. But given Goofy's is already 55' tall it's already as tall the range of a Wild Mouse. So being stacked isn't gonna work in most cases.

 

[DrStarlander]

I think Disney is looking at the whole resort not just a single Park. So in my opinion they aren't seeing DCA as needing a specific ride profile, but rather the whole resort.

I disagree. DCA needs to work as a stand-alone park. If DCA doesn't have the right offerings, maybe guests only need to go to DL and can skip DCA (clearly the 17 to 10 million guests difference suggests that's the case). Maybe guests should just do DL plus USH or SeaWorld. DCA is competing for business.

Which building? This building?

This one:

 

[Disney Irish]

I disagree. DCA needs to work as a stand-alone park. If DCA doesn't have the right offerings, maybe guests only need to go to DL and can skip DCA (clearly the 17 to 10 million guests difference suggests that's the case). Maybe guests should just do DL plus USH or SeaWorld. DCA is competing for business.

How many tourists are actually skipping DCA on a DLR trip, very few in my opinion. Its only locals would maybe skip DCA.

Also I never said they shouldn't build a family coaster in DCA, as I said I suspect Oaken's is coming, whether that goes into DCA or DL remains to be seen. I just don't think it should go in this specific spot you outlined, or be themed to Spidey. So really we're not saying too much different, just the nuisance of the specifics of the theme and the location.

This one:
View attachment 890187

Lol, ok, so you're back to this fictitious "building" that you think would go on this spot. Got it. Also noticed you have that almost as tall as MB, which I doubt they would make any building that tall if one was built there. Just saying.

So lets agree to disagree here. As I still think this is putting the cart WAY WAY before the horse. As I hightly doubt at this point that they are going to do anything with that space for the foreseeable future. Let's revisit this in a few years after Coco and Avatar are built and see where things sit with future announced projects.

 

[mickEblu]

I disagree. DCA needs to work as a stand-alone park. If DCA doesn't have the right offerings, maybe guests only need to go to DL and can skip DCA (clearly the 17 to 10 million guests difference suggests that's the case). Maybe guests should just do DL plus USH or SeaWorld. DCA is competing for business.

This one:
View attachment 890187

I mean you have a point. At what they re charging for one day park hoppers I’m skipping DCA when I take my family from out of the country in a few weeks. Maybe I feel differently with a few more bonafide E tickets at DCA. Or even better for Disney - add a day to the itinerary. Right now it feels like I would be paying a decent upcharge for them to ride Guardians, a non themed coaster and to put myself in another up charge situation with RSR.

But this old news. A one day park hopper is the worst value of any ticket.

 

[DrStarlander]

How many tourists are actually skipping DCA on a DLR trip, very few in my opinion. Its only locals would maybe skip DCA.

We come from out of state and typically do, say, 2 or 3 days at DL and only 1 at DCA. Then we'd go to other attractions in So. Cal., including San Diego Zoo, Wild Animal Park, etc. If DCA had more/better to do, we'd do more days there. And locals do matter too. Any possible guest matters, they need them all.

Lol, ok, so you're back to this fictitious "building" that you think would go on this spot. Got it. Also noticed you have that almost as tall as MB, which I doubt they would make any building that tall if one was built there. Just saying.

Back to it? I never left! I'm proposing a building that's 120 feet tall compared to MB's 184 feet. To the extent it would be visible, it would blend in and accentuate Avenger's Campus skyline/placemaking but overall it would be hidden in part by MB and because it's fairly far back from guest areas.

So let's agree to disagree here.

Sure. But you know your comment yesterday about there not being room left in Avenger's Campus was a callback to our exchanges and I will always get baited into a conversation about a Spider-Man coaster because I want to keep saying the phrase "Spider-Man coaster" as often as I can. Not to irritate you. But because I'm a Disney shareholder.

 

[Disney Irish]

We come from out of state and typically do, say, 2 or 3 days at DL and only 1 at DCA. Then we'd go to other attractions in So. Cal., including San Diego Zoo, Wild Animal Park, etc. If DCA had more/better to do, we'd do more days there. And locals do matter too. Any possible guest matters, they need them all.

I mean sure, all guests matter. But even in your personal scenario you aren't skipping DCA, you're spending at least one day there. And I imagine most non-locals are doing the same. And as DCA continues to add more, even with just the 4 attractions in the next 4-6 years, it'll have more to do.

Back to it? I never left! I'm proposing a building that's 120 feet tall compared to MB's 184 feet. To the extent it would be visible, it would blend in and accentuate Avenger's Campus skyline/placemaking but overall it would be hidden in part by MB and because it's fairly far back from guest areas.

Sorry, but the conversation skewed a bit so I didn't immediately think about your fictitious building from yesterday.

Also I'm not thinking about views inside the Park, I'm thinking about views outside the Park along Harbor and how much they would be willing to cut off the access roads or not based on what you're proposing, etc.

Sure. But you know your comment yesterday about there not being room left in Avenger's Campus was a callback to our exchanges and I will always get baited into a conversation about a Spider-Man coaster because I want to keep saying the phrase "Spider-Man coaster" as often as I can. Not to irritate you. But because I'm a Disney shareholder.

I'm a shareholder as well, and I don't think that its worth spending on a "Spider-Man coaster" in that specific spot as you laid out.

I'd be more inclined to put one in the Hyperion spot with a majority of the show building there and then some of the track going into this area you've allocated.

 

[coffeefan]

It will be interesting to see how much attendance increases at DCA once Avengers opens (and the other attractions). According to Google, Epcot had a 20% increase after Cosmic Rewind and Moana.