Len Testa - “Disney positions itself as the all-American vacation. The irony is that most Americans can’t afford it.”

[Nubs70]

If data could be gathered over the last 20 years, it would be interesting to build a time lapse heat map of guest zip codes.

Would we see WDW trending towards a multi regional park, that happens to be located in FL, rather than a national/international park?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I’m gonna be blunt here. Can you even just answer a question?

But we’re here to have fun

 

[HauntedPirate]

I don't mean to be rude, but how long have you been on these online Disney forums?

I have been around long enough to have been through multiple rounds over the years of people reporting empty parks and surveying empty hotel parking lots only to have the quarterly results come out and show attendance was either steady or up. There are so many things that can affect a guest's experience of crowds that subjective experience is not a reliable indicator of objective attendance.

This is not an argument that Disney is great value and everyone should be vacationing there. I personally don't find WDW great value right now and have no trips planned anytime soon. However, I am more interested in what is going on with pricing and crowds than finding information that suggests everyone thinks the same way I do.

This forum? Check my profile. I started in the late 90's, before this version of the forum software was implemented, since it required a new account. So this ain't my first rodeo either.

Since you have zero interest in an actual discussion, I'm done here.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

@Sir_Cliff is a classy poster. Angry insults aren't his style.

Many thanks, and also to @Agent H!

My comment was completely sincere as I signed up on this forum more than 23 years ago and was around back in the alt.disney.disneyland and rec.arts.disney.parks going back to the mid-1990s, so I have been through many waves of discontent with Disney management. Over that time, I have observed and participated in many discussions of how management is screwing up, and sometimes there was some evidence that was the case. On the attendance front and particularly at WDW, though, I mostly remember reports of empty parks, hotels, etc. followed by quarterly reports that suggested the opposite.

The article that inspired this thread suggests that there are broader issues related to income distribution that explain Disney's strategy. I am honestly more interested in knowing if that strategy actually makes sense however much we may dislike it than trying to find evidence that it doesn't, whatever the case may be.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I honestly have no idea what this means!

…that response was pretty much on the line of “nasty”…a bit of knee jerk, “too personal” kinda response

 

[Jrb1979]

Many thanks, and also to @Agent H!

My comment was completely sincere as I signed up on this forum more than 23 years ago and was around back in the alt.disney.disneyland and rec.arts.disney.parks going back to the mid-1990s, so I have been through many waves of discontent with Disney management. Over that time, I have observed and participated in many discussions of how management is screwing up, and sometimes there was some evidence that was the case. On the attendance front and particularly at WDW, though, I mostly remember reports of empty parks, hotels, etc. followed by quarterly reports that suggested the opposite.

The article that inspired this thread suggests that there are broader issues related to income distribution that explain Disney's strategy. I am honestly more interested in knowing if that strategy actually makes sense however much we may dislike it than trying to find evidence that it doesn't, whatever the case may be.

IMO their strategy does make sense but at the same will likely fail in the long run.
It makes sense in that those who have disposable income are the upper class, so they have the money to spend on your product.

At the same time, majority of those that have the money either visit once and move on. Or they have no interest in Disney. As much as most here want to deny it there was and partially still is a lot of overlap between those who visit regional parks and Disney. Those people are in the middle class. IMO due to that they have lost a lot of families. Families was how they got kids attached to Disney. When those kids grew up they took their kids and the cycle kept going.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

IMO their strategy does make sense but at the same will likely fail in the long run.
It makes sense in that those who have disposable income are the upper class, so they have the money to spend on your product.

At the same time, majority of those that have the money either visit once and move on. Or they have no interest in Disney. As much as most here want to deny it there was and partially still is a lot of overlap between those who visit regional parks and Disney. Those people are in the middle class. IMO due to that they have lost a lot of families. Families was how they got kids attached to Disney. When those kids grew up they took their kids and the cycle kept going.

I’d say the truth is somewhere in the middle on this…

But that doesn’t make the strategy sound at all. The thinking is way to short term to be sound

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Many thanks, and also to @Agent H!

My comment was completely sincere as I signed up on this forum more than 23 years ago and was around back in the alt.disney.disneyland and rec.arts.disney.parks going back to the mid-1990s, so I have been through many waves of discontent with Disney management. Over that time, I have observed and participated in many discussions of how management is screwing up, and sometimes there was some evidence that was the case. On the attendance front and particularly at WDW, though, I mostly remember reports of empty parks, hotels, etc. followed by quarterly reports that suggested the opposite.

The article that inspired this thread suggests that there are broader issues related to income distribution that explain Disney's strategy. I am honestly more interested in knowing if that strategy actually makes sense however much we may dislike it than trying to find evidence that it doesn't, whatever the case may be.

Well I definitely learned something new today. I’ll store that in the old data banks

 

[TheMaxRebo]

IMO their strategy does make sense but at the same will likely fail in the long run.
It makes sense in that those who have disposable income are the upper class, so they have the money to spend on your product.

At the same time, majority of those that have the money either visit once and move on. Or they have no interest in Disney. As much as most here want to deny it there was and partially still is a lot of overlap between those who visit regional parks and Disney. Those people are in the middle class. IMO due to that they have lost a lot of families. Families was how they got kids attached to Disney. When those kids grew up they took their kids and the cycle kept going.

I do think they are trying to keep the cycle going and get the next batch of hooked Disney fans with a number of the promotions and perks like they had the half price kids tickets, the kids eat free promotion for next year keeping the value resorts and quick service pretty flat (adjusted for inflation, etc)

Whether it proves to be effective we shall see, but I do think they realize that

 

[Ayla]

They should be doing that already! Many people here act as if Disney's repeat customers are trapped in some mindless cycle until they see the light and discover that there are other/better options out there. Perhaps that's true for some, but I tend to think consumers (particularly today) are better informed than that.

Disney is a choice, and no-one should be going there unless they consider it absolutely worth their time, money, and energy.

You think much higher of people than I do. I know better than to believe people are better-informed.

 

[monothingie]

I don't mean to be rude, but how long have you been on these online Disney forums?

I have been around long enough to have been through multiple rounds over the years of people reporting empty parks and surveying empty hotel parking lots only to have the quarterly results come out and show attendance was either steady or up. There are so many things that can affect a guest's experience of crowds that subjective experience is not a reliable indicator of objective attendance.

This is not an argument that Disney is great value and everyone should be vacationing there. I personally don't find WDW great value right now and have no trips planned anytime soon. However, I am more interested in what is going on with pricing and crowds than finding information that suggests everyone thinks the same way I do.

I’ve been around long enough to know that what’s happening is certainly not normal.

This is not a simple ebb and flow of demand. This is a sizable sentiment shift in the public towards the brand. Pick your reason (price, politics, Josh’s extra tight pants - a plus for me btw) but the Disney brand is in the toilet of public perception, and you can thank Bob for that.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I do think they are trying to keep the cycle going and get the next batch of hooked Disney fans with a number of the promotions and perks like they had the half price kids tickets, the kids eat free promotion for next year keeping the value resorts and quick service pretty flat (adjusted for inflation, etc)

Whether it proves to be effective we shall see, but I do think they realize that

If you break down the math…that’s not really an effective discount to do that stated goal. Because there are minimum purchase caveats imbedded all over the place in those “deals”

Not like this kinda thing:

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

They should be doing that already! Many people here act as if Disney's repeat customers are trapped in some mindless cycle until they see the light and discover that there are other/better options out there. Perhaps that's true for some, but I tend to think consumers (particularly today) are better informed than that.

I have never considered this to be true…it’s not that simple

Disney is a choice, and no-one should be going there unless they consider it absolutely worth their time, money, and energy.

What we…the “haters” who travel there more and with a long histories than most of the “lovers” have been trying to say is that the issue for all of us is the impression the current product will give to those who DON’T fall into those categories…because there is no future without the ability to deliver and attract new customers into the market?

How do I know?…it applies to every product in History.

 

[Andrew C]

I’ve been around long enough to know that what’s happening is certainly not normal.

This is not a simple ebb and flow of demand. This is a sizable sentiment shift in the public towards the brand. Pick your reason (price, politics, Josh’s extra tight pants - a plus for me btw) but the Disney brand is in the toilet of public perception, and you can thank Bob for that.

Pants. For sure.

 

[LittleBuford]

What we…the “haters” who travel there more and with a long histories than the “lovers” have been trying to say is that the issue for all of us is the impression the current product will give to those who DON’T fall into that categories…because there is no future without the ability to deliver and attract new customers into the market?

No, everyone.

If you find yourself travelling regularly to a destination that no longer feels like good value for money, stop going there and explore other options.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

No, everyone.

If you find yourself travelling regularly to a destination that no longer feels like good value for money, stop going there and explore other options.

In my Experience…no one who doesn’t find value continues to go…

This isn’t black and white…that stance looks cute as a quip on chatboard…but is 100% disingenuous.

There is still value in many things…however that doesn’t negate that some things are declining and mistakes are made and the consumer has a responsibility to identify those things and ask for changes.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Pants. For sure.

I don’t know how anyone can think with pants cutting off the circulation that much?


…i also bet that’s why he always looks like he’s about to hold
Gotham city hostage for $1 million dollars…

 

[Biff215]

I do think they are trying to keep the cycle going and get the next batch of hooked Disney fans with a number of the promotions and perks like they had the half price kids tickets, the kids eat free promotion for next year keeping the value resorts and quick service pretty flat (adjusted for inflation, etc)

Whether it proves to be effective we shall see, but I do think they realize that

You wouldn’t think that looking at the most recent promotions just announced for January and beyond. Cheapest value comes in at $220+/night with the ($13) “discount” for my dates. Then about $3,000 for four basic park passes for six days.

I can only assume bookings are either up or they’re hoping the cheerleading groups fill the place. At these prices I’ll look offsite or rent DVC. We’ll get our fill after 3+ years going elsewhere and then spend our summer vacation on a cruise.

I’m willing to bet my teenagers will go the same direction as adults even though they each spent a decade plus of multiple WDW trips. That’s because we openly talk about money with them and they choose cruising based on the experience and value, despite their love of Disney and many great memories. Proud parents.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

You wouldn’t think that looking at the most recent promotions just announced for January and beyond. Cheapest value comes in at $220+/night with the ($13) “discount” for my dates. Then about $3,000 for four basic park passes for six days.

I can only assume bookings are either up or they’re hoping the cheerleading groups fill the place. At these prices I’ll look offsite or rent DVC. We’ll get our fill after 3+ years going elsewhere and then spend our summer vacation on a cruise.

I’m willing to bet my teenagers will go the same direction as adults even though they each spent a decade plus of multiple WDW trips. That’s because we openly talk about money with them and they choose cruising based on the experience and value, despite their love of Disney and many great memories. Proud parents.

Yes…

That is above the market…but we have to repeat it over and over again for those in the back of the class

 

[LittleBuford]

In my Experience…no one who doesn’t find value continues to go…

Exactly! That's why comparisons of the sort I was responding to don't make much sense. Those of us who continue to go are aware of what we're paying and consider it worth the price overall, regardless of whether alternative options would be more affordable or not.

That doesn't mean there aren't aspects of the experience to criticise, of course.