MK Cars-Themed Attractions at Magic Kingdom

[lazyboy97o]

I disagree. The change occurs because no one goes to the restaurant until they’re notified that their food is ready. That’s the point.

What is the discouraging and prohibiting of access you’re referring to?

When QSRs are operated as mobile order only they don’t let people inside until their order is ready. Mobile order only QSRs are even designed more like table service with a single entrance, a host position and a small waiting area. This is because more people arrive and then order versus order and wait to arrive. Even those who order before arriving, people don’t know their place in line and most don’t realize that simply placing the order isn’t what puts it in line to actually be made.

Even without mobile order, Cast Members will ask people to wait until they have their food before sitting down.

 

[Chi84]

When QSRs are operated as mobile order only they don’t let people inside until their order is ready. Mobile order only QSRs are even designed more like table service with a single entrance, a host position and a small waiting area. This is because more people arrive and then order versus order and wait to arrive. Even those who order before arriving, people don’t know their place in line and most don’t realize that simply placing the order isn’t what puts it in line to actually be made.

Even without mobile order, Cast Members will ask people to wait until they have their food before sitting down.

How do the majority that give you a choice operate?

“Discouraging” and “prohibiting access” don’t sound very magical. Probably results in harried CMs and ticked off guests.

Mobile ordering (at least when we’ve done it) accomplishes the same thing naturally.

 

[lazyboy97o]

How do the majority that give you a choice operate?

“Discouraging” and “prohibiting access” don’t sound very magical. Probably results in harried CMs and ticked off guests.

Mobile ordering (at least when we’ve done it) accomplishes the same thing naturally.

Different places have different strategies based on their design and seating capacity. Some of it is operational, such as asking people to wait to sit. Others are design-based, like not having door pulls on exterior doors that are not entrances leading to the ordering area. In general, you can see how the design has shifted. Something like Cosmic Rays wouldn’t be built today because of how spread out the ordering area is, how there are multiple access points and there isn’t really a barrier between the ordering area and the dining area. A more contemporary design is going to have a single main entrance, it’s going to direct you towards an ordering area (possibly even in a single queue) and there will be a much more physical separation between ordering and dining. Tomorrowland Terrace isn’t closed because of a lack of foot traffic, but it would absolutely have a problem with people trying to just sit at the tables.

That’s great for you, you know the system and how to make the most of it. Nobody is disputing the available utility. But that doesn’t describe the macro of how a venue or a park operate as a whole. We went down this tangent because of claims that the closure of the Adventureland Verandah and Tomorrowland Terrace was a non issue despite a significant increase in visitation since the Adventureland Verandah closed for good in 1994. They’re two sizable venues and it’s weird how much push back there is at times when I point out that the park once has these big venues available even though it was a lot less busier.

Additional attractions, increased capacity and utilization are major arguments for this project, Villains land and the removal of the Rivers of America. We know attraction demand is high because we have easy access to wait times, which generally have a strong correlation to demand. We don’t for other venue types so the strain is more easily accepted or explained away (ie. “restaurants are busy at lunch”). But the capacity issues for the Magic Kingdom extend beyond just its attraction capacity. Even if these attractions provide enough capacity to absorb the demand they induce, that’s still additional strain on already strained dining capacity (unless Villains contains an absolutely massive QSR). Access into and, more importantly, out of the park is still going to be constrained and the consistent use of the bypasses is an embarrassment for what should be a full-time part of the show. A possible future hotel in back is also not going to meaningfully help. The monorails and ferries are also still going to be strained. There’s a whole list of things that can and should be done to help capacity, crowding and movement to, from and through the Magic Kingdom that are not being done. They’re not being done because they cannot (and should not) be sold as a reason to visit, because people may not recognize how certain components contribute to an easier day, and because no one can point to a big change on a map.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

They’re two sizable venues and it’s weird how much push back there is at times when I point out that the park once has these big venues available even though it was a lot less busier.

There was also Main Street bakery which had a larger menu, indoor seating area, and lots of outdoor seating available down by the old swan boat dock. That and Tomorrowland terrace made a big difference in access to food and seating.

it’s why I wondered what the actual usage of the riverboat and island has been over the years. Wasn’t it always designed for about the usage it had?

 

[flynnibus]

I disagree that mobile order does not add capacity, I suppose it does not in the typical way but it allows more people to eat who would have skipped a long line at that area. Instead of being frontloaded all into 1 ordering section and hogging up tables while they wait for their parties order to be done, they would most likely be checking out some shops/rides in the area nearby.

You incorrectly assume seating or lines are the limiting factor - It's the kitchen.

Mobile order just minimizes bodies standing around - it doesn't actually speed anything up, nor change that the fact the capacity of the place is really the kitchen. When laying the place out you plan out how many tables and order stands and kitchen velocity as a system. Guess which is the most expensive to scale? So that's usually the bit that bounds everything else.

 

[Chi84]

You incorrectly assume seating or lines are the limiting factor - It's the kitchen.

Mobile order just minimizes bodies standing around - it doesn't actually speed anything up, nor change that the fact the capacity of the place is really the kitchen. When laying the place out you plan out how many tables and order stands and kitchen velocity as a system. Guess which is the most expensive to scale? So that's usually the bit that bounds everything else.

But isn't seating an issue when the 10 families behind you in line have people saving tables?

Mind you, I care not about Disney as a business. I'm just considering the convenience of the guest (me).

 

[flynnibus]

But isn't seating an issue when the 10 families behind you in line have people saving tables?

Mind you, I care not about Disney as a business. I'm just considering the convenience of the guest (me).

That's not really a capacity topic but more about your experience. When people 'play out of turn' they upset the balance yes.. but as noted that can be solved by keeping people from getting out of turn. That problem is exaggerated the longer a meal is. But look at it the other way around.. assume people don't camp out and meals are not actually a long seated experience. Does mobile order make the place turn over more orders? No, the kitchen will still be the ultimate speed limit on customer throughput. Taking more orders than you can fill just creates a backlog.. guests not being able to be seated just clogs up the downhill side of things and causes negative sentiment.

Mobile order like many 'convenience' models only really is a benefit when no one else is using it. When it becomes the dominate way of doing something, those advantages tend to disappear.

Something like getting your order in faster because you're avoiding the trolog in front of your line is great.. but if 50 other people are doing it too you've lost that advantage.

Lines are useful as self-regulating. When the line gets long enough, human nature will cap how long the wait gets. Mobile order fails at that.. which is why when SWGE opened you ended up with the stupidity like lunch selling out at 9am and other absurdities.

Mobile ordering has benefits.. but like many things, the real total answer 'depends'. Order pickup works great for turning over hand overs quickly.. but you gotta throttle it, else you end up with the situation like 300 people trying to all stand around the same 10ft of counter space.

 

[Chi84]

That's not really a capacity topic but more about your experience. When people 'play out of turn' they upset the balance yes.. but as noted that can be solved by keeping people from getting out of turn. That problem is exaggerated the longer a meal is. But look at it the other way around.. assume people don't camp out and meals are not actually a long seated experience. Does mobile order make the place turn over more orders? No, the kitchen will still be the ultimate speed limit on customer throughput. Taking more orders than you can fill just creates a backlog.. guests not being able to be seated just clogs up the downhill side of things and causes negative sentiment.

Mobile order like many 'convenience' models only really is a benefit when no one else is using it. When it becomes the dominate way of doing something, those advantages tend to disappear.

Something like getting your order in faster because you're avoiding the trolog in front of your line is great.. but if 50 other people are doing it too you've lost that advantage.

Lines are useful as self-regulating. When the line gets long enough, human nature will cap how long the wait gets. Mobile order fails at that.. which is why when SWGE opened you ended up with the stupidity like lunch selling out at 9am and other absurdities.

Mobile ordering has benefits.. but like many things, the real total answer 'depends'. Order pickup works great for turning over hand overs quickly.. but you gotta throttle it, else you end up with the situation like 300 people trying to all stand around the same 10ft of counter space.

That hasn’t happened, at least in my experience. Some people use it while others prefer the registers. But it seems to have made a positive difference in the experience.

It would probably be different if everyone used it.

 

[LSLS]

I’m comparing it to times when we walked around with trays full of food past multiple people saving places for the ones in line waiting to order food.

With mobile ordering you go in, get your food and the find a seat. You didn’t have to compete with people in line well behind you whose family members were saving seats.

So no dates. Most recent data, MK was under 18 million people a year. They have not been under 18 million people without mobile ordering since 2012. So if you are comparing your experience now to your experience 7 years ago, you are also talking about a vastly different amount of people in the park. Lots of times people show up to mobile ordering and their food is not ready. At which point, people will go and find places to sit. Unless you can find data (or even personal experience) to compare what finding a table was like in 2012 vs. 2023, you don't have any proof as you are missing a huge variable in the number of people at the park. Again, some people love it, and it's great as an option, but it has done nothing to improve capacity, and I am reluctant to say it's done much to improve the access to seating either.

 

[lazyboy97o]

There was also Main Street bakery which had a larger menu, indoor seating area, and lots of outdoor seating available down by the old swan boat dock. That and Tomorrowland terrace made a big difference in access to food and seating.

it’s why I wondered what the actual usage of the riverboat and island has been over the years. Wasn’t it always designed for about the usage it had?

Main Street Bakery is something that would require more detailed analysis. It’s more than possible that its throughput is about the same or greater. That’s not to say conveniences like seating or a better menu weren’t lost, it’s just not the easy example for numbers. It’s also more in the line of kiosk rather being a full QSR, which are the real engines of meal output. Tomorrowland Terrace on the other hand was a full QSR and thousands walk through every day with the tables and chairs sitting there unused and blocked off.

Given that the original design was for two riverboats to operate, it seems hard to believe utilization matched that intent. Not to mention the canoes and keel boats and additional island access. I’m not sold on the idea that utilization couldn’t have been improved (especially since my personal experience was being thanked for showing people how to actually get to the island). But we shouldn’t fool ourselves into believing it wasn’t under utilized.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But isn't seating an issue when the 10 families behind you in line have people saving tables?

Mind you, I care not about Disney as a business. I'm just considering the convenience of the guest (me).

People behind you in line getting seating ahead of you is only a problem when either seating is insufficient for kitchen output or capacity is being strained. It can also be exacerbated by things like insufficient seating elsewhere in the park and long standby waits.

 

[cheezbat]

Mobile ordering? Park restaurant capacity?

For a second I thought I was in the wrong forum…wasn’t this about Cars coming to Frontierland at Magic Kingdom?

 

[Chi84]

So no dates. Most recent data, MK was under 18 million people a year. They have not been under 18 million people without mobile ordering since 2012.

So MK is now okay in terms of dining capacity?

I can’t speak for everyone but once we got our notification the food has been ready.

 

[Chi84]

People behind you in line getting seating ahead of you is only a problem when either seating is insufficient for kitchen output or capacity is being strained. It can also be exacerbated by things like insufficient seating elsewhere in the park and long standby waits.

Yes but what you’re saying is true of any popular venue and can be avoided by having people sit after they get their food.

 

[phillip9698]

So MK is now okay in terms of dining capacity?

I can’t speak for everyone but once we got our notification the food has been ready.

I know it’s already been said but I think if they had better food the dining capacity would definitely be an issue. I’ve never had an issue getting a table in Cosmic Rays, then again I don’t like Cosmic Rays and only eat there because they have food my kids like and it’s easy.

Just seems like most restaurants in the MK that have large capacity have mediocre to bad food.

If they started actually serving good food in those places they would definitely need more capacity.

We don’t eat at a Cosmic Rays level restaurant in any other park.

 

[Chi84]

I know it’s already been said but I think if they had better food the dining capacity would definitely be as issue. I’ve never had an issue getting a table in Cosmic Rays, then again I don’t like Cosmic Rays and only eat there because they have food my kids like and it’s easy.

Just seems like most restaurants in the MK that have large capacity have mediocre to bad food.

If they started actually serving good food in those places they would definitely need more capacity.

I think the food is far better than other theme parks I’ve been to - much more variety.

Anyway, it’s only a matter of time until we get admonished to get back on topic.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So MK is now okay in terms of dining capacity?

Why do you keep jumping to claims no one made?

Yes but what you’re saying is true of any popular venue and can be avoided by having people sit after they get their food.

Which is what we’ve been trying to explain to you and isn’t dependent on or caused by mobile ordering. You keep ignoring design and processes that are in place because you don’t interact with them.

 

[Chi84]

You keep ignoring design and processes that are in place because you don’t interact with them.

I think that’s true of most people. You’re coming at this from a different angle.

But maybe it’s time to take this to the restaurant forum if there’s more to be said.

 

[phillip9698]

I think the food is far better than other theme parks I’ve been to - much more variety.

Anyway, it’s only a matter of time until we get admonished to get back on topic.

The food at MK better than Epcot?

No way.

 

[Chi84]

The food at MK better than Epcot?

No way.

Oh sorry I was thinking of non-Disney parks.