TheMaxRebo
Well-Known Member
The Chase Visa lounge longer exists - you get the extra character photo op but no lounge
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MK New Pirates of the Caribbean-themed lounge
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
The Chase Visa lounge longer exists - you get the extra character photo op but no lounge
Ayla
Well-Known Member
I thought that was DVC? LOL I guess not.
solidyne
Well-Known Member
DrStarlander
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if you're questioning my lifetime love of Disney or my statement that the down-aging is bad for the parks and the Disney company. But if you're unconvinced about the risk of down-aging, I'll elaborate:
The existential crisis that the Disney company found itself in during the late 1970s and 1980s was that they were perceived as a "children's brand" and they struggled -- no matter what they tried -- to appeal to older kids, teens, and adults. The company was so weakened it was almost overtaken by corporate raiders and sold off for parts.
Disney watched other studios capture older kids and teens with Star Wars and Indiana Jones and Goonies and Back to the Future...and over many years they attempted to mimic these IPs and up-age their audience with projects like The Black Hole, The Rocketeer, Something Wicked This Way Comes, Return to Oz, Black Cauldron and many others.
When Eisner came in to rescue the company, he saw that age-relevance problem. He asked his son for his opinions on what would make Disney "cool" and we got parks projects like Splash Mountain, Videopolis, Captain Eo, and Star Tours and Indiana Jones and Tower of Terror (under license...as Disney did not have older-appealing IPs to make attractions based on)...and Disney launched Touchstone Pictures and Hollywood Pictures, and in many different ways, desperately tried to shed the perception they were "only for kids."
Ultimately they spent a fortune to acquire Marvel and Lucasfilm to obtain an older boy and adult audience because they weren't successful in-house. They also invested in several video game companies (including Fortnite recently) and media companies (e.g., Maker Studios) along the way to get at that audience they needed and couldn't develop internally.
This 40-year struggle to appeal to older boys, teens, and adults has been the most persistent company-wide strategic and creative challenge for Disney, affecting film, television, and the parks, and costing the company billions of dollars. In the parks specifically, the IPs that are non-juvenile and have an adult-sensibility -- Star Wars, Marvel, Avatar -- were all externally created and acquired, expensively.
So, the one exception to all this history is Pirates of the Caribbean. It is the one, true, in-house smash success franchise by Disney with older boys, teens, adults in the past 40 years. It is Disney's equivalent of Jurassic Park/World or Harry Potter. Given the pain, and expense, Disney has gone to in order to obtain IPs for older boys and adults, it is completely unstrategic and totally unnecessary to down-age the IP. They have boatloads -- decades -- of juvenile IPs. PotC is a unique IP asset for older boys and adults. And overall, Disney needs this IP and any others that appeal to teens and adults because it is expensive to keep acquiring other IPs and studios.
But, you may say, it's just one project. Why the strong reaction? Because this infantilization and dumbing down and aging down is happening all throughout the Disney Parks, and arguably the Disney company. Things that don't need to be "cutified" are getting the cute-treatment. Places that used to appeal to adults and have gravitas are replaced with a Disney Jr. sensibility. I'm raising an alarm: Does management have a strategy around retaining older boys, teens, and adults? Are the leaders of all the divisions rowing in the right direction and helping? Do the executives understand the history and risks of down-aging Disney back to just a children's brand?
Big picture, what I'm seeing is a potential of history repeating itself...
JD80
Well-Known Member
Lucasfilm was pretty cheap, so was Marvel compared to what they've brought in over the last few decades.
$8B was a pretty good deal.
edit to add:
I think it's worth mentioning that currently Disney has the highest grossing movie in 2025 (along with #6 and 7) with Tron, F4, Zootopia, Avatar coming out in the second half.
Last year They had the top 3 grossing movies worldwide totally nearly $4B in sales. (Along with #6 - Mufasa with $700M)
In 2023 they struggled against Barbie/Oppenheimer/Mario but still managed to snag $4 with GotG. Was a pretty down year for Disney movies. (The rest of the slate that year was in #11-15 with Mermaid, Elemental, AntMan)
Do we count 2022? They had #1/4/6/8.
Comparing failed projects to the early 80s is disengenous. Sure Disney has had some stinkers, but they've killed the boxoffice most years. Brand fatigue? Maybe with the terminally online, but attendance to the parks is still increasing. Disney movies are still doing well, for the most part. I'm not sure how you can point to Moana 2 doing $1B in the boxoffice and saying there is lack of anything. The only movies that did over $1B last year were Disney ones and they were all sequels/franchises.
I dunno, I'm not sure how you can go from wooden whorls on a bar top to the company failing.
$8B was a pretty good deal.
edit to add:
I think it's worth mentioning that currently Disney has the highest grossing movie in 2025 (along with #6 and 7) with Tron, F4, Zootopia, Avatar coming out in the second half.
Last year They had the top 3 grossing movies worldwide totally nearly $4B in sales. (Along with #6 - Mufasa with $700M)
In 2023 they struggled against Barbie/Oppenheimer/Mario but still managed to snag $4 with GotG. Was a pretty down year for Disney movies. (The rest of the slate that year was in #11-15 with Mermaid, Elemental, AntMan)
Do we count 2022? They had #1/4/6/8.
Comparing failed projects to the early 80s is disengenous. Sure Disney has had some stinkers, but they've killed the boxoffice most years. Brand fatigue? Maybe with the terminally online, but attendance to the parks is still increasing. Disney movies are still doing well, for the most part. I'm not sure how you can point to Moana 2 doing $1B in the boxoffice and saying there is lack of anything. The only movies that did over $1B last year were Disney ones and they were all sequels/franchises.
I dunno, I'm not sure how you can go from wooden whorls on a bar top to the company failing.
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Tony the Tigger
Well-Known Member
Stopped reading right there.
I question your entire premise, among other things. There is absolutely no point going further. We have completely different systems of valuing and emphasizing what is important.
plutofan15
Well-Known Member
You got all that from some wood carvings on a bar? Your opinion is yours and you are certainly entitled to it but I will have to disagree. My son will be 20 years old in a few weeks and loves WDW. He would visit several times a year if he was able and prefers to stay in the parks from open to close. Obviously, not every 20 year old would do the same.
If you look at the major rides built recently they certainly are not "aging down". In fact, there are quite a few here that are calling for more all-age, family attractions to be built. When you consider the recent builds of Tron, Guardians and going a little farther back to include Flight of Passage and Rise of the Resistance, these are all geared towards an older demographic. Add in the new bars and lounges (although some would prefer not to have those) which obviously cater to an older crowd, I fail to see how Disney is "aging down".
In my opinion, when you say that Disney failed to address the older crowd from in house leading to the company spending money on acquiring outside companies, show me a large company that has grown without making purchases.
eddie104
Well-Known Member
The funny thing is most posters on here say Disney is moving away from that kitschy 90s style theming.
This lounge is bringing some of that back with its design and the poster is saids it looks childish which is very reminiscent of time period.
Casper Gutman
Well-Known Member
“Kitschy 90s style theming” doesn’t equal “poorly done.” Quite the opposite.
James Alucobond
Well-Known Member
There is definitely a point to be made about the scrollwork, but it is also a massive stretch to suggest that it is indicative of an intentional cutesification push that jeopardizes years of effort to be viewed more seriously. Pirates pre-dates most of those largely Eisner-era concerns. Mostly, it just indicates a lesser degree of care with anachronism, a lack of period knowledge, and/or a preference for architectural fantasy. Simple as that.
Figments Friend
Well-Known Member
I am looking forward to seeing what this space will look like once completed.
Seems promising to me, based on the concept art and general knowledge being noted by Disney.
This is of course a marketing departments job…the ‘make it look good’ and arouse interest….but I like what I am seeing so far related to this project.
I will agree however that this is likely going to become another ‘Trader Sam’s’ situation where the space will be too small to accommodate the demand and business potential.
But if this ends up looking even just 40% of the released concept art, I think this could be a great addition.
The size of the venue looks to be the only real issue.
But such size will likely create a perceived ‘high demand’ from potential visitors…which is often used in marketing to drive up interest and real demand.
This one will be interesting to watch develop and see revealed eventually…as will the forthcoming opening.
Lots of promise and potential here to make this a unique and fun experience.
Let’s see if the end result lives up to that potential.
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Seems promising to me, based on the concept art and general knowledge being noted by Disney.
This is of course a marketing departments job…the ‘make it look good’ and arouse interest….but I like what I am seeing so far related to this project.
I will agree however that this is likely going to become another ‘Trader Sam’s’ situation where the space will be too small to accommodate the demand and business potential.
But if this ends up looking even just 40% of the released concept art, I think this could be a great addition.
The size of the venue looks to be the only real issue.
But such size will likely create a perceived ‘high demand’ from potential visitors…which is often used in marketing to drive up interest and real demand.
This one will be interesting to watch develop and see revealed eventually…as will the forthcoming opening.
Lots of promise and potential here to make this a unique and fun experience.
Let’s see if the end result lives up to that potential.
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DisneyHead123
Well-Known Member
I will be curious to see where Disney goes with lounges after this. Given the small footprint of this place, the use of immersive theming that many have been clamoring for, and the relatively “dry” status of MK, I think it will be absolutely slammed. (At a time when table service reservations appear to be way down, based on availability in the app. I think that the margins on booze and snacks are also way better, as compared to full meals.)
My guess is that at a minimum they will include a lounge in Villains, and I could potentially see them going for a third. (Or renovating an existing space, like Gaston’s Tavern or even the Plaza.)
Figments Friend
Well-Known Member
I totally expect to see a lounge of some kind added to the Villians area.
It is just money waiting to be taken from people….
And I totally agree…
The fact the Beak n’ Barrel will serve booze will insure the place is packed open to close.
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TheMaxRebo
Well-Known Member
It's a good point comparing this to underutilized dining places ... Wonder if something could be converted to more of a lounge.
Tomorrowland Terrace would be tough as is a passthrough/open. Maybe something like Diamond Horseshoe?
Animaniac93-98
Well-Known Member
My problem with the Pirate mini golf appearance of some of the bar's features is that it doesn't fit with the look of either the ride or film series. It's just "pirate" for pirate's sake, which works fine in a self contained environment like those Caribbean Beach hotel rooms, but not as a part of Caribbean Plaza as a whole, which has a pre-established visual language.
There are Disney parks and experiences that have exaggerated perspectives, saturated colours, fanciful embellishments, but The Magic Kingdom specifically is very much a fantasy with right angles that draws from many real life architectural inspirations of buildings that either still exist or once did. I don't believe Tony Baxter likes the "boxy" look of Cinderella Castle, but that there sets the tone for the whole place. Buildings are big, they have weight and dimension to them, the upper floors look like real spaces (many are) that are clearly connected internally or externally to other parts. There's no comically proportioned dormers, windows, stairs to nowhere, it's all "real" in a sense that Disney has moved away from.
It's why I also don't care for some of the design choices for New Fantasyland. Yes, even in Fantasyland with its rides referencing cartoon characters, we have the Western corridor with it's alpine village timbers and towers taken from Switzerland and Germany and not trying to literally recreate the stylized, flat background art of Disney cartoons.
Also just as an aside, criticizing aesthetic choices is not the same thing as criticizing someone's work ethic.
I'm a firm supporter of reopening MK's abandoned spaces and making good use of them. I've said my support for the project as a whole before, but that does not make it 100% immune to criticism nor that people shouldn't be allowed to share their perspectives if they demonstrate a level of effort to articulate their points.
There are Disney parks and experiences that have exaggerated perspectives, saturated colours, fanciful embellishments, but The Magic Kingdom specifically is very much a fantasy with right angles that draws from many real life architectural inspirations of buildings that either still exist or once did. I don't believe Tony Baxter likes the "boxy" look of Cinderella Castle, but that there sets the tone for the whole place. Buildings are big, they have weight and dimension to them, the upper floors look like real spaces (many are) that are clearly connected internally or externally to other parts. There's no comically proportioned dormers, windows, stairs to nowhere, it's all "real" in a sense that Disney has moved away from.
It's why I also don't care for some of the design choices for New Fantasyland. Yes, even in Fantasyland with its rides referencing cartoon characters, we have the Western corridor with it's alpine village timbers and towers taken from Switzerland and Germany and not trying to literally recreate the stylized, flat background art of Disney cartoons.
Also just as an aside, criticizing aesthetic choices is not the same thing as criticizing someone's work ethic.
I'm a firm supporter of reopening MK's abandoned spaces and making good use of them. I've said my support for the project as a whole before, but that does not make it 100% immune to criticism nor that people shouldn't be allowed to share their perspectives if they demonstrate a level of effort to articulate their points.
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Animaniac93-98
Well-Known Member
Disney's obsession with self-referential ornamentation is also unnecessary because it's not the job of one piece of wood paneling or one chandelier alone to set the tone and communicate the story of an environment.
All the pieces and furnishings ultimately work in harmony to support the narrative. We're already in Caribbean Plaza next to the ride, it's an old tavern with servers and wait staff in period dress, there's music choices and so many other things that all come together to communicate "pirate". The audience has so many reference points they bring from their own experience with pirate media, that they can do a lot of the storytelling interpretation on their own.
It's why people think the load area for The Flying Dutchman at Efteling feels like Disney's Pirate ride. Not because there's anything visually or in the soundscape that's directly taken from Disney, but because the whole vibe of the space says "pirates" to the average guest who has a familiarity with that subject.
All the pieces and furnishings ultimately work in harmony to support the narrative. We're already in Caribbean Plaza next to the ride, it's an old tavern with servers and wait staff in period dress, there's music choices and so many other things that all come together to communicate "pirate". The audience has so many reference points they bring from their own experience with pirate media, that they can do a lot of the storytelling interpretation on their own.
It's why people think the load area for The Flying Dutchman at Efteling feels like Disney's Pirate ride. Not because there's anything visually or in the soundscape that's directly taken from Disney, but because the whole vibe of the space says "pirates" to the average guest who has a familiarity with that subject.
Animaniac93-98
Well-Known Member
Could the former Stitch's Great Escape space also be one in the future?
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
I’m one of the few left who doesn’t think alcohol should be in any castle park but either way please don’t take away more previous public space!
solidyne
Well-Known Member
So refreshing to hear the term "existential crisis" employed correctly. News media today seem to think it means something different.
That's unfortunate. I enjoy reading things I disagree with when they are written well.
You're not going to like the announcement of Stitch's Great Elixirs....