Universal Epic Universe (South Expansion Complex) - Now Open!

[Stripes]

Yes. This park will increase overall profit and attendance for universal but the parks impact on Disney is grossly overstated and honestly just comes off as wishful thinking. I predict this park will be the third most visited park in Orlando for the first 2 to 3 years and then will join the the ranks of the parks that have to be updated every couple of years to keep attendance as high as the other parks.

D'Amaro: Epic Universe Will Not Cannibalize Walt Disney World Visitation

Disney Experiences Chairman Josh D'Amaro was recently asked about Universal Epic Universe and the impact it'll have on Walt Disney World

blogmickey.com

 

[flynnibus]

I cannot be the only one who is going this way

you aren't - and it's a train of thought in 'online theme park wars' that gets lost when people fight for their camps vs just consider themselves as customers.

The products change... what made something good or bad in 2002 isn't necessarily the same in 2022.
What you experienced as a kid who was green and carefree is different from what you experience as an adult doing the organization and bill paying.
What your family needs or enjoys will evolve as the make-up of your family changes with age, growing up, growing older, etc.

TLDR - things evolve, both the product (like the WDW changes you mention) and you as a customer.

What made Disney so stand out for so many years was how the product managed to appeal to customers at various stages and could KEEP a customer engaged as they evolved.. so you got this generational cycle that built such loyalty. But they broke that cycle... and so it's not uncommon at all for evolving customers to find themselves stepping out of the loop.. or feeling out of place in the loop.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

What made Disney so stand out for so many years was how the product managed to appeal to customers at various stages and could KEEP a customer engaged as they evolved.. so you got this generational cycle that built such loyalty. But they broke that cycle... and so it's not uncommon at all for evolving customers to find themselves stepping out of the loop.. or feeling out of place in the loop.

I would be curious to know how true this has been during the lifespan of the parks and when/if it changed. My memory is that one of the issues with the Disney brand generally that was identified when Eisner took over is that it appealed to people when they were children, lost them when they became teenagers, and only regained them when they had children of their own. This was part of the logic for diversifying the options available at WDW and, on the studio side, creating Touchstone.

Unless I am misremembering something, then, I would be interested to know when Disney transitioned to a point where they held customers throughout their life and then when that changed and what made it change. I wouldn't think it would be pricing so much, as that is more pricing certain consumers out entirely rather than, say, making the parks less appealing to teenagers. As a brand, I would suggest that Disney is actually more all-ages now than it has ever been.

 

[Baloo124]

This is officially the new box office thread.

If that's the case, then who is to blame for poor sightlines in some areas of the park? Rachel Zegler or Gal Gadot?

 

[celluloid]

I would be curious to know how true this has been during the lifespan of the parks and when/if it changed. My memory is that one of the issues with the Disney brand generally that was identified when Eisner took over is that it appealed to people when they were children, lost them when they became teenagers, and only regained them when they had children of their own. This was part of the logic for diversifying the options available at WDW and, on the studio side, creating Touchstone.

Unless I am misremembering something, then, I would be interested to know when Disney transitioned to a point where they held customers throughout their life and then when that changed and what made it change. I wouldn't think it would be pricing so much, as that is more pricing certain consumers out entirely rather than, say, making the parks less appealing to teenagers. As a brand, I would suggest that Disney is actually more all-ages now than it has ever been.

I don't know if age appeal has changed much, but the post Baby Boomer and generations that did not have Davy Crockett to Cars are certainly spending less or moving on in numbers. There is more competition than ever.

The branding gap is much different and thinner than ever before.

Thing are reasonating very differently and Disney theme parks have been a mature project for a long time. There is naturally a bit of a decline before/if the cycle continues back.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I don't know if age appeal has changed much, but the post Baby Boomer and generations that did not have Davy Crockett to Cars are certainly spending less or moving on in numbers. There is more competition than ever.

The branding gap is much different and thinner than ever before.

Thing are reasonating very differently and Disney theme parks have been a mature project for a long time. There is naturally a bit of a decline before/if the cycle continues back.

Do we know that from any specific data?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I feel like I have been hearing on forums like this about consumers turning away from Disney for a long time evidence of it never seems to emerge when it comes to cold hard numbers. I can imagine that the generation that came of age in Disney's less successful years which may have less of a connection with the brand, though those who came of age in the past 35-40 years seem to, if anything, be more rusted on than previous generations considering how successful Disney has been in selling 1990s nostalgia.

The point about the Disney theme parks being a mature product with little scope for growth seemed to be the internal thought, at least as regards WDW, for much of the 2000s-2010s. That seems to have changed, though, and what is the evidence they are declining in terms of their appeal?

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Unless I am misremembering something, then, I would be interested to know when Disney transitioned to a point where they held customers throughout their life and then when that changed and what made it change. I wouldn't think it would be pricing so much, as that is more pricing certain consumers out entirely rather than, say, making the parks less appealing to teenagers. As a brand, I would suggest that Disney is actually more all-ages now than it has ever been.

Social media and influencer culture changed how people engaged with Disney content.

Young people were monetizing and advertising the idea of Disney as a lifestyle/fashion trend. People were clamoring to have their own online business or identity to sell Disney directly or indirectly. As Disney became prominent on socials, other influencers and online personalities were looking to engage and benefit from the prominence of the brand and conversations.

It wasn't just wannabe travel agents and trip hacks, it became fashionable and desirable all over the internet to get that spirit jersey selfie in front of the castle. Video essays and nostalgia bait became a thing on YouTube. Non Disney brands wanted to license products to cash in on this trend.

All of this was largely independent of Disney's direct involvement or intentions. This wasn't Eisner reshaping the company, it was the company being reshaped by the culture.

Disney didn't coin the phrase "Disney adult", but they sure have benefitted from it.

 

[flynnibus]

I would be curious to know how true this has been during the lifespan of the parks and when/if it changed. My memory is that one of the issues with the Disney brand generally that was identified when Eisner took over is that it appealed to people when they were children, lost them when they became teenagers, and only regained them when they had children of their own. This was part of the logic for diversifying the options available at WDW and, on the studio side, creating Touchstone.

Well remember we are talking Consumer Sentiment and behaviors here - so this isn't going to be some sharp line or binary thing that applies universally. You're looking at changes at the macro level as individual experiences have shifted, or experiences have accumulated that result in changes in behavior.

As much as Disney has generally had that elementary age kid appeal.. they still managed to keep their hooks in people of all ages. Yes, you might find the teen in 1994 prefer the Hulk coaster over Mickey's Birthday celebration... but that kid would have still seen The Little Mermaid and probably recite some song chorus' too.

One element you can look at is things like DVC. DVC is largely sold on the idea of frequency and generational value to keep returning with your kids, their kids, etc. Customers have to believe they will want that kind of repeat visit to buy into the concept.. and people did it in droves. So one can argue customers were still convinced they thought they needed that, and their interest would be handed down to the next generation too.

I believe the shift is based in the "Disney Difference". The eroding of that difference is what broken the loyalty loop. The eroding of the difference comes in many different forms. The fact that the form of entertainment wasn't as unique as it once was.. because the format was copied... that society, information, and travel also changed so Disney wasn't the only way you experienced such things... and then you have the things Disney did to themselves that eroded their stand out customer service. Then you add in the product changes.. and all of this starts accumulating negatives or just missing "wows".. so customers become less and less fanatical about your brand or product.

This isn't about 'one change' or even individual changes -- it's about a company stalling, and then flat out forgetting what their special sauce was as they chased the numbers to meet their goals instead of counting on success coming from great product and experiences.

I think the Disney changes themselves were really ramping up the early 2000s and by the 2010s we were full on coasting on our reputation vs establishing greatness. In the generational game that means the people in their 30s have a different set of experiences than those in their 50s or 70s. It's a game that literally takes decades for the outcomes to play out because we're not talking hard cutoffs.. we're talking how customers want to lead their families and what impressions they want to leave in their children, etc.

Some may point to attraction openings in the period I'm talking about but this conversation isn't about individual rides, etc.. It's about what a Disney vacation was as a whole - not just Expedition Everest or something.

 

[TalkingHead]

Disney didn't coin the phrase "Disney adult", but they sure have benefitted from it.

To your point, that term has more significance than the company-branded “Disney moms,” the corporate attempt to formalize and exert control over the brand/adult identity thing.

 

[Minnesota disney fan]

I have mentioned some of this before, but when it comes to theme park vacations, our family has completely shifted from WDW to Universal. The value proposition at WDW just isn't there anymore for us. And that combined with what Universal can offer us (even before this new park), it is a no brainer. More value for us, better pre-arrival experience, and honestly a better experience while being there. So, while I will miss many things about WDW, I just cannot justify going there when I know we will have a better experience at Universal, and will not feel like I am being ripped off. And that doesn't even touch on the fact that my kids are starting to get older...

I cannot be the only one who is going this way. Although I am also not exactly a typical theme park guest...

You are not the only one! Count us in as solid Universal fans now.

 

[jrhwdw]

Brief Celebratory Moment on EU's Opening Day.

 

[celluloid]

Do we know that from any specific data?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I feel like I have been hearing on forums like this about consumers turning away from Disney for a long time evidence of it never seems to emerge when it comes to cold hard numbers. I can imagine that the generation that came of age in Disney's less successful years which may have less of a connection with the brand, though those who came of age in the past 35-40 years seem to, if anything, be more rusted on than previous generations considering how successful Disney has been in selling 1990s nostalgia.

The point about the Disney theme parks being a mature product with little scope for growth seemed to be the internal thought, at least as regards WDW, for much of the 2000s-2010s. That seems to have changed, though, and what is the evidence they are declining in terms of their appeal?

I don't think you are being difficult.
That depends on what data would you find solid?

Specific numbers? You could go across the company and find the ones that are consistently dropping be it theme parks, box office etc.. Steady patterns and not ebb and flow.

That does not have to be done though because results are in and it has been verified by industry that Disney has dropped in branding reputation via their metrics. In terms of dropping in appeal evidence, that is proof.
https://www.disneytouristblog.com/d...ortunes-most-admired-companies-list-for-2025/

Bob Iger himself called the parks a mature product.

It is not just internet talk. It is an actual life cycle of all business, no one really avoids it.

On the micro and immediate.
Supply and demand from the consumer is evident, as FL resident park tickets to parks not MK have dropped to about 60 dollars for the first time in a very long time(decades) and the FL resident base in numbers is larger than ever.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

Good, bad, or ugly. In 8 days Universal is gonna unleash this unholy abomination.

The Today Show is going to broadcast live from the parks for 4 days. They are live streaming the Grand Opening Celebration on the evening of the 21st. And there is a 3 episode Universal Studios Theme Parks documentary that includes Epic debuting on Peacock in July.

Buckle up Buttercup, it's going to be an interesting Summer.

Potter 2010 was a shot across the bough.

This is turning the ship sideways and firing all the cannons.

 

[TennHokies]

Good, bad, or ugly. In 8 days Universal is gonna unleash this unholy abomination.

The Today Show is going to broadcast live from the parks for 4 days. They are live streaming the Grand Opening Celebration on the evening of the 21st. And there is a 3 episode Universal Studios Theme Parks documentary that includes Epic debuting on Peacock in July.

Buckle up Buttercup, it's going to be an interesting week.

Potter 2010 was a shot across the bough.

This is turning the ship sideways and firing all the cannons.

Our upcoming family trip in 3-weeks is 4 nights/5 days on campus at Universal with a round trip Lift ride one night to Hollywood Studio for a 3 hour after hours event. The tides they are a turnin’ for sure.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I don't think you are being difficult.
That depends on what data would you find solid?

Specific numbers? You could go across the company and find the ones that are consistently dropping be it theme parks, box office etc.. Steady patterns and not ebb and flow.

Is it true that we see a steady downward trend for the theme parks and box office? It seems that right up until the pandemic they were going up and up, and since then it is harder to tell if there is a consistent trend. In recent quarters, for example, Disney theme parks seem to have been performing a lot better than Comcast's. I know the response is often that people are waiting for Epic Universe which may turn out to be true, but, either way, those numbers are so far not showing big shift away from Disney as far as I can tell.

Disney's Box office also seems to drop off around the pandemic and in its immediate aftermath and then begin to climb again. At the same time, Disney has also become one of the main players in streaming and is apparently still seeing growth in subscribers.

That does not have to be done though because results are in and it has been verified by industry that Disney has dropped in branding reputation via their metrics. In terms of dropping in appeal evidence, that is proof.
https://www.disneytouristblog.com/d...ortunes-most-admired-companies-list-for-2025/

Bob Iger himself called the parks a mature product.

It is not just internet talk. It is an actual life cycle of all business, no one really avoids it.

Surely, though, if WDW is a mature product this would also be an issue for Universal in Orlando. If the market for WDW is mature with little room for growth, where are all the extra people who want to visit theme parks in Orlando going to come from to support Universal's expansion? That would suggest Universal's only real play with these expansions is attracting a greater share of the visitors who would have previously gone to WDW.

Again, this is not to suggest everything's great at Disney. I would just want more evidence that there is a great shift happening, particularly a generational shift away from Disney. Personally, I don't find WDW a great value proposition right now and am not really interested in visiting. I see numbers like those that came out last quarter, though, and I find it hard to argue that Disney is suffering because more and more people think like me.

 

[celluloid]

Comcast

Is it true that we see a steady downward trend for the theme parks and box office? It seems that right up until the pandemic they were going up and up, and since then it is harder to tell if there is a consistent trend. In recent quarters, for example, Disney theme parks seem to have been performing a lot better than Comcast's. I know the response is often that people are waiting for Epic Universe which may turn out to be true, but, either way, those numbers are so far not showing big shift away from Disney as far as I can tell.

Disney's Box office also seems to drop off around the pandemic and in its immediate aftermath and then begin to climb again. At the same time, Disney has also become one of the main players in streaming and is apparently still seeing growth in subscribers.


Surely, though, if WDW is a mature product this would also be an issue for Universal in Orlando. If the market for WDW is mature with little room for growth, where are all the extra people who want to visit theme parks in Orlando going to come from to support Universal's expansion? That would suggest Universal's only real play with these expansions is attracting a greater share of the visitors who would have previously gone to WDW.

Again, this is not to suggest everything's great at Disney. I would just want more evidence that there is a great shift happening, particularly a generational shift away from Disney. Personally, I don't find WDW a great value proposition right now and am not really interested in visiting. I see numbers like those that came out last quarter, though, and I find it hard to argue that Disney is suffering because more and more people think like me.

None of this is exclusively true in business and guest spending patterns.
For example, it can be FL residents are going to Uni more than ever and Disney at a lesser rate.
Mature product and mature market are different.

And that does not include ancillary spend.

For hypothetical purposes if spending is less at WDW and more at Uni, even if attending numbers were both the same, means you are losing to your competition sees gain from your loss.

Your second post specifically is opposite of true. Demand in travel has ebb and flow but not that much to where it guarantees less of relative earnings for Universal. In business, if a product loses many customers of value proposition, a present competitor in the market gains them.
We are currently seeing this.

These are proven theories and not the most exciting things, but with these posts there are evident.

Disney's box office ROI has yet to come back post pandemic. This is particuarly evident with the many disney family attempts that performed lower than family films and animation from other studios. There have been a few wins amongst a lot of loss.
While it takes longer to feel, it goes in line with what the metrics prove with branding and shift in interest.

 

[networkpro]

Brief Celebratory Moment on EU's Opening Day.

A liberal application of oil and seasonings on all guests as they bake in the sun.

 

[MrPromey]

I have mentioned some of this before, but when it comes to theme park vacations, our family has completely shifted from WDW to Universal. The value proposition at WDW just isn't there anymore for us. And that combined with what Universal can offer us (even before this new park), it is a no brainer. More value for us, better pre-arrival experience, and honestly a better experience while being there. So, while I will miss many things about WDW, I just cannot justify going there when I know we will have a better experience at Universal, and will not feel like I am being ripped off. And that doesn't even touch on the fact that my kids are starting to get older...

I cannot be the only one who is going this way. Although I am also not exactly a typical theme park guest...

Your not - that's us too but in my case at least, it's not so much that Universal just completely won us over as it was that we were Disney's to lose and they lost us.

I'm at a stage in life where I have to do all the un-fun stuff around trips, including pay for them. Low stress is better than any attachment I have to Haunted Mansion. Universal gives me that and my son's at an age where a lot of their themes are more interesting to him than a half baked Toy Story mini-land.

He really liked Rise but not enough to pick Disney when given the choice this year.

 

[Disney Maddux]

One would hope. One specifically in particular. But some show elements too is specifically partly what I was referring to.(atmospheric touches)

If this is meant to mean that Unchained's lighting is finally getting improved (and the removal of that black curtain), I'll be very happy.

 

[Agent H]

Not sure how much they can do to expand DK capacity outside of better OPs and reliability. The coaster is a prototype and suffers capacity for it.

My guess is they build a DK barrel flat ride, Jungle vine swing ride, ect. Give people something to do in the area that doesn't have a horrible wait.

a Mack twist and splash would fit the area perfectly.