Universal Epic Universe (South Expansion Complex) - Now Open!

[Tom Morrow]

I said earlier they went 90% in. Universal's way is to put up a hard stop at theming and everything beyond that, that is plainly visible but clearly not part of the "magic" is ok. Like when you look at SNW from Atlantic, the green hills painted on the surrounding wall stop and then the tan Mario Kart show building is plainly visible. But I think the General Public gets it. And I think it is really a non issue. Purists can stand there jaw dropped at the break in "immersion" while normies don't even notice. I mean, they see it, but they understand the real world.

Nah, sorry. F-- this excuse. The real world, the average Orlando tourist DOES get it and that is why Disney is still the leader of the theme park industry and will still be a year from now.

Though the average guest may not be able to articulate it, they surely will have thoughts like "Hmm, I don't recall seeing a sewage treatment plant from inside any of Disney's parks". I stand by this. On a subconscious level, unsightly views suggest "I guess they didn't care enough to make this is good as they possibly could".

Literally every theme park enthusiast wanted and was anticipating Epic Universe to set the new standard for an immersive theme park, and now that we see that it did not, we should voice our criticisms that they should have tried 10% harder rather than shift the narrative to "Actually this was never an issue and only nerds cared about immersion all along (in a place where you are literally paying to escape the real world)."

Honestly I didn't want to post so much negativity about an exciting new park that is mostly very good and in some aspects outstanding, but the attempt to stifle out any and all valid criticisms of it from some needs to stop.

 

[Andrew C]

Though the average guest may not be able to articulate it, they surely will have thoughts like "Hmm, I don't recall seeing a sewage treatment plant from inside any of Disney's parks". I stand by this. On a subconscious level, unsightly views suggest "I guess they didn't care enough to make this is good as they possibly could".

Disney guests certainly see a lot of giant painted boxes nowadays. Honestly, Disney hasn’t cared about sight lines since 1998 so I’m not sure what standard we are holding universal to. I think it’s pretty obvious they had to give up a few minors things to stay within budget. And the things they gave up were probably the right ones. Given what they have provided us, I’ll take a few moments of awkwardness.

 

[celluloid]

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Disney guests certainly see a lot of giant painted boxes nowadays. Honestly, Disney hasn’t cared about sight lines since 1998 so I’m not sure what standard we are holding universal to. I think it’s pretty obvious they had to give up a few minors things to stay within budget. And the things they gave up were probably the right ones. Given what they have provided us, I’ll take a few moments of awkwardness.

Exactly.

The great immersive completeness we are comparing it to is of The Disney Decade, which Disney themselves barely holds themselves to that often anymore.

We can't say a Disney park stateside today would be built today would match Epic for two major reasons.

1. They have not budgeted an entirely newon property park while keeping up their current.
2. Everything new build post Galaxy's Edge(which had its own cuts) has been fairly ugly compared to previous standards.

 

[James Alucobond]

Disney guests certainly see a lot of giant painted boxes nowadays. Honestly, Disney hasn’t cared about sight lines since 1998 so I’m not sure what standard we are holding universal to.

For the most part, they see exactly four from inside all of the parks without squinting at a great distance—Cosmic Rewind, TRON, Soarin', and RNRR. The two lower profile of those are the older ones and the two bigger offenders are more recent. Very few people will excuse the trend at Disney. Why do you think the same people who criticize it at Disney won't also criticize it at Universal?

 

[celluloid]

For the most part, they see exactly four from inside all of the parks without squinting at a great distance—Cosmic Rewind, TRON, Soarin', and RNRR. The two lower profile of those are the older ones and the two bigger offenders are more recent. Very few people will excuse the trend at Disney. Why do you think the same people who criticize it at Disney won't also criticize it at Universal?

You dont see it as much, because as a whole, Universal is delivering more. Theu were not all E tickets but taste aside both their parks kept adding attraction and venue builds while getting a third theme park full of attractions and entertainment.
Notice most of the flaws you listed are WDW's most recent.
The recent at Disney ARE the new builds, and Uni has Some of this as a part of an entire new theme park plus new builds.

And that is just the big building flaws.
Disney has more recent flaws than just boxes.

 

[ryno1982]

I said earlier they went 90% in. Universal's way is to put up a hard stop at theming and everything beyond that, that is plainly visible but clearly not part of the "magic" is ok. Like when you look at SNW from Atlantic, the green hills painted on the surrounding wall stop and then the tan Mario Kart show building is plainly visible. But I think the General Public gets it. And I think it is really a non issue. Purists can stand there jaw dropped at the break in "immersion" while normies don't even notice. I mean, they see it, but they are in a theme park and are willing to ignore what the designer suggested they ignore.

Except the whole point of the park is to step into different worlds through portals. That very concept relies on immersion. This isn't a studios park. When they stop at 90 percent they are undermining their own good efforts.

 

[James Alucobond]

Because as a whole, Universal is delivering more.

What does that have to do with anything? Does the quantity of delivery relative to Disney at any given moment mean the quality cannot be questioned? You and others keep acting like there's some unfair treatment going on when those commenting on these issues do so consistently for every project, whether from Universal or Disney.

EDIT: I guess I responded to an old version of your post. It's difficult to reply when your posts are always in flux.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Disney guests certainly see a lot of giant painted boxes nowadays.

There's basically two big offenders - Cosmic Rewind and Tron. I truly don't think Tron is that bad, at least from within Tomorrowland. Cosmic Rewind is unfortunate but it's also just in "Epcot", not a land that is aiming for full thematic immersion. Since I'm sure someone will claim that this is me making excuses for Disney and not Universal - yes, there is a big difference between show buildings visible within lands that are supposed to be 100% immersive vs. seeing in theme park lands that do not have that goal.

For instance, Pandora, Diagon Alley, SNW, and Ministry, as well as 95% of Galaxy's Edge, successfully hide any show buildings or back of house areas.

For the sake of covering all bases, other areas at WDW where show buildings are clearly visible:

- Soarin', but only from certain angles far away, and you really have to know where to look and what you're looking at.
- Expedition Everest's backside and the FoP buildings from outside of the park, but not in it.
- RnRc - themed to a soundstage, which worked for the park when it was new.

Basically, all four WDW parks have as many show buildings visible as Epic Universe alone. I get that space is a thing and show buildings are not always 100% hidable, but remember that they were working with a blank slate of land.

Second, the sightline issues we're mentioning are less about show buildings and more about seeing unthemed BOH areas, or worse, completely out of the park itself through to public land. The goal of a theme park is to escape the real world. I get that it's completely unavoidable when high on on rides - for instance you can see US-192 from the top of Everest. But from ground level, the real world should be blocked out - AND this is not too big of a task, again especially when designing a park from a blank slate.

Honestly, Disney hasn’t cared about sight lines since 1998 so I’m not sure what standard we are holding universal to.

Disney having ever had 100% perfect sightlines is a myth, but though they have slipped a bit in the last decade, they're still the king of quality sightlines.

With 10% more effort, Universal could have shown them up. It feels like literally 10%. That's why this is frustrating.

 

[celluloid]

What does that have to do with anything? Does the quantity of delivery relative to Disney at any given moment mean the quality cannot be questioned? You and others keep acting like there's some unfair treatment going on when those commenting on these issues do so consistently for every project, whether from Universal or Disney.

It is a fact and extension of showbusiness of you are only as good as the most recent project and it is easier to accept flaws with so many huge wins.

EPIC has  some "aww man"
While Disney consistently lately  is "Aww man."

Quality can be questioned, but it's obvious on the scale who is lately delivering more great product. You asked why others may not question it as much.

And why so few are caring about some bad sightlines as if they are angry others are not more mad about it.

 

[James Alucobond]

It is a fact and extension of showbusiness of you are only as good as the most recent project and it is easier to accept flaws with so many huge wins.

EPIC has  some "aww man"
While Disney consistently lately  is "Aww man."

Again, what does Disney's quality have to do with Universal's quality? You are the one consistently making a comparison. Most people are simply saying that the breaks in immersion and poor theming are disappointing, not that Disney would do it better at the moment.

 

[celluloid]

There's basically two big offenders - Cosmic Rewind and Tron. I truly don't think Tron is that bad, at least from within Tomorrowland. Cosmic Rewind is unfortunate but it's also just in "Epcot", not a land that is aiming for full thematic immersion. Since I'm sure someone will claim that this is me making excuses for Disney and not Universal - yes, there is a big difference between show buildings visible within lands that are supposed to be 100% immersive vs. seeing in theme park lands that do not have that goal.

For instance, Pandora, Diagon Alley, SNW, and Ministry, as well as 95% of Galaxy's Edge, successfully hide any show buildings or back of house areas.

For the sake of covering all bases, other areas at WDW where show buildings are clearly visible:

- Soarin', but only from certain angles far away, and you really have to know where to look and what you're looking at.
- Expedition Everest's backside and the FoP buildings from outside of the park, but not in it.
- RnRc - themed to a soundstage, which worked for the park when it was new.

Basically, all four WDW parks have as many show buildings visible as Epic Universe alone. I get that space is a thing and show buildings are not

Again, what does Disney's quality have to do with Universal's quality? You are the one consistently making a comparison. Most people are simply saying that the breaks in immersion and poor theming are disappointing, not that Disney would do it better at the moment.

I am only making a comparison when another does and showing showing flaws in logic.

Every theme park has breaks in immersion. Everyone has a different taste and threshold of what will break it or enhance it.
Just some examples:
For some it is Hagrid's murals, for others it is the fact that s coaster track was visible in the first place.

For some it is the Tron Box, for others it is the fact that Monsters Inc is in Tomorrowland.

 

[James Alucobond]

I am only making a comparison when another does and showing showing flaws in logic.

First, you absolutely make many comparisons unprompted by others, and second, your comparison in this case is not a comparison at all. It is an excuse for lapses in quality, a suggestion that the quantity of what is being delivered makes it okay, and an unfounded hypothesis that a nonexistent Disney fifth gate would manifest with the same flaws.

Every theme park has breaks in immersion. Everyone has a different taste and threshold of what will do it.

And everyone should be able to consistently comment on the fact that immersive failures bother them regardless of who built a park or when it was built.

 

[Vclguy90]

We are staying at Terra Luna 4/23 -4/28. Does anyone know if snagging early Epic Tickets for hotel guest will be extremely limited or do we have a decent shot?

 

[celluloid]

And everyone should be able to consistently comment on the fact that immersive failures bother them regardless of who built a park or when it was built.

And they are. Clearly. But not  everyone feels that way. Clearly.
It is OK if others find the visual breaks not a deal breaker for their immersion.

For many the big picture of the recent build with over 40 hours of audio scoring and more detailed entertainment interaction than any other major theme park currently operating and knowing not every corner of the park has a scenic gap...etc.
It is just as valid to say they don't find immersion lacking.

 

[celluloid]

We are staying at Terra Luna 4/23 -4/28. Does anyone know if snagging early Epic Tickets for hotel guest will be extremely limited or do we have a decent shot?

I think once your hotel stay is confirmed you can go for them. Get them as early as you can and I would say you have a decent shot.

 

[Tom Morrow]

It is a fact and extension of showbusiness of you are only as good as the most recent project and it is easier to accept flaws with so many huge wins.

EPIC has  some "aww man"
While Disney consistently lately  is "Aww man."

Consistently? Define "lately", because "lately" Disney has also given us the likes of Flight of Passage, Rise, and Cosmic Rewind, all smash hits.

Slinky Dog Dash, Tron and Ratatouille are fine. Moana Journey of Water is fine, albeit severely out of place.

Tiana and the Country Bears makeover are fails.

Etc etc. And let's not forget that in the same timeframe, Universal has given it's equal share of hits and misses.

 

[celluloid]

Consistently? Define "lately", because "lately" Disney has also given us the likes of Flight of Passage, Rise, and Cosmic Rewind, all smash hits.

Slinky Dog Dash, Tron and Ratatouille are fine. Moana Journey of Water is fine, albeit severely out of place.

Tiana and the Country Bears makeover are fails.

Etc etc. And let's not forget that in the same timeframe, Universal has given it's equal share of hits and misses.

I stated post Galaxy's Edge and around it.
Cosmic Rewind and Tron have story immersion issues and ugly box designs as mentioned already. Having attractions being a hit and having immersion flaws are not mutually exclusive. You should understand that as Epic is a smash hit and has flaws.
We already discussed Swan and Dolphin being visible within EPCOT's World Showcase as far as outside structures.
Slinky dog could not even get scale consistency right. So if we are speaking of immersion flaws, the one major thing in a land based on giant toys is to get scale right. Cars in Frontierland is going to change Frontierland and Libert Square's immersion goals big time.
Epcot's many year complete plaza redesign is uninspiring to what the park was and whatever it is now.

Also, the Toy Story MANIA queue entrance in a land redone has a giant metal building that you see a lot of before you enter it.
Velocicoaster is a great ride experience but for some reason there is a conflicting Jurassic World Clash in Isla Aventura.

Now you are getting it. Both and all major theme parks have their hits and misses! And those hits and misses will vary person to person.
The only reason to compare.


Epic's flaws are real and are also not out of the ordinary nor are shunned by the theme park enjoying public or creators as a whole.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Cosmic Rewind and Tron have story immersion issues and ugly box designs as mentioned already.

I agree, but people love Cosmic Rewind. Your stance was that everything Disney has done lately has been a letdown for all.

We already discussed Swan and Dolphin being visible within EPCOT's World Showcase as far as outside structures.

Again, a sleek hotel that is owned by Disney vs. an ugly industrial water treatment plant owned by the city. They knew it was there, and they could have taken every possible step to hide it. They didn't.

Slinky dog could not even get scale consistency right. So if we are speaking of immersion flaws, the one major thing in a land based on giant toys is to get scale right.

They're largely fictional toys. What scale? This is the first time I have ever seen this complaint anywhere.

Now you are getting it. Both and all major theme parks habe their hits and misses.

The only reason to compare.

Epic's are not out of the ordinary nor are shunned by the theme park enjoying public or creators as a whole.

Okay. This screenshot is taken from a video posted today from Coaster Studios on YouTube.

Please let me know where, in the WDW parks, I can find a view like this. This is really bad. We should not see this in a premium park.

I seriously didn't want to dwell this hard on the park's negative aspects because there's a lot to love. But man... come on.

 

[Centauri Space Station]

It is a fact and extension of showbusiness of you are only as good as the most recent project and it is easier to accept flaws with so many huge wins.

EPIC has  some "aww man"
While Disney consistently lately  is "Aww man."

Quality can be questioned, but it's obvious on the scale who is lately delivering more great product. You asked why others may not question it as much.

And why so few are caring about some bad sightlines as if they are angry others are not more mad about it.

Pandora, SWGE, Space 220, Awesome planet, Cosmic rewind (the ride), point of light, Luminous, MMRR, the skyliner are not aw man at all.

 

[celluloid]

I agree, but people love Cosmic Rewind. Your stance was that everything Disney has done lately has been a letdown for all.


Again, a sleek hotel that is owned by Disney vs. an ugly industrial water treatment plant owned by the city. They knew it was there, and they could

Pandora, SWGE, Space 220, Awesome planet, Cosmic rewind (the ride), point of light, Luminous, MMRR, the skyliner are not aw man at all.

They are great fun. But in terms of thematic immersion strength, more aww man than nailed it. Space 220 was a third party resteraunt, but sure it's fine.
The discussion was about immersion breaks, not quality of thrill or guest satisfaction. Also, MMRR was not technically a ground up build which is what I mentioned earlier. It was in a gutted already themed building.