Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

WOW!..I mean WOW!..
I stumbled across this site while looking for some info on the Magical Express for our trip to WDW this month. I first visited WDW for a day in 1985 and have made it an every or every other year destination with my kids since 1996. As an owner/operator of a design/build construction firm for the last 22 years I've always taken an interest in the details of the design at great theme parks. I have given up my business in the last year and have returned to school to pursue a (gulp!) MBA. Since finding this thread about a week ago I've read every post in the 370ish pages. There are some greatly insightful posters who've participated. And...Eddie...wow....you've been amazingly generous and forthright in discussing issues that you could and unbelievably patient in dealing with requests that you could not answer. Your insights into projects you've worked on and projects you haven't are unique in that you lived it, breathed it, and worked it. There seems to be no shortage of aspiring future imagineers here who should literally take notes. Just really wanted to say thank you for your generosity and patience in making this a very entertaining and informative read.

You are far too kind. If you get the chance in life to do what so many would kill for, then sharing those "true-life adventures" of what it's like is the least you can do. then everyone gets a sense of it, good and bad. Thanks for reading all the posts, now we'd like to hear more from you.

 

[MikeAGeorge]

Creativity vs. bottom line

You are far too kind. If you get the chance in life to do what so many would kill for, then sharing those "true-life adventures" of what it's like is the least you can do. then everyone gets a sense of it, good and bad. Thanks for reading all the posts, now we'd like to hear more from you.

Ok...I have a few thoughts to share..here goes.
Much of the tone/expectations on these forum sites are unrealistic. There seems to be a widely held expectation that WDW should continually be updated (I'm not talking about maintenance and upkeep) to meet some unrealistic expectation level. While as a fan I do very much look forward to new experiences I also have owned a business and been an employer through the last three recessions. WDC will make changes when forced to by the marketplace i.e. perhaps WWoHP. Beyond that, if the numbers they generate are meeting the requirements to operate and the expectations of the owners (stockholders...of which I am one) there is no impetus to go out on a limb with huge new capital improvements in uncertain times. We were at DL and DCA last August for the first time. I can see why they are adding a billion dollars to DCA..the experience was very un-Disney like. My brother and family are AP's in Socal and insist there have already been substantial improvements there. This is a perfect example of the market demanding capital infusion just to meet expectations. While WDC makes millions on operating WDW at this time their strategies to maintain these ever tighter margins on likely not sustainable. Really...10-15 years ago would any of you have expected discounting or free DDP? Next week will be my first time at WDW since Jan.08 so I will be looking at what's new and improved as well as some of the maint./upkeep issues I've heard on here. However, free DDP aside, we choose to return because of the value that still exists in the experience.
On a design note. Some of the links and info from this thread have inspired me a bit. I'd never heard of IAPPA but am considering attending this year to see how things are evolving. I am no longer interested in residential work...been there/done that...but am very interested in the idea of theming more of our everyday experiences..i.e. shopping, dining, or even entertainment. As I search for a new career path to hold my interests for the next 10-20 years this is certainly intriguing to me.

 

[ChrisFL]

Colin Chapman designed race cars in the same way - he added lightness to the car by making things as simple as possible. I think great design is just that...great design. Steve Jobs has the right ideas...simplicity works.

Yes, there are a few of my idols in the auto industry, Colin Chapman, Gordon Murray, Enzo Ferrari, Chip Foose, and now Eddie Sotto for his work on Pimp my Ride

 

[Mickey_777]

Eddie,

I was wondering you if you had any information/knowledge as to Disney's advancement in theming/facade design early on in the history of the parks. When I look at photos of Disneyland in the early days, it's clear that imagineers (if in fact they were the ones doing the theming) were on the right track but not "quite there" yet. Then you look at next two parks Disney built, EPCOT in particular, and the authenticity with which these showbuildings were crafted is gorgeous. The DL Fantasyland redo in '83 was also around this time.

Were imagineers sent to learn at a particular design/sculpting institute? Was this outsourced or did Disney use guys from thier movie studio? Architects? Who are the Disney theme team now? Thanks so much Eddie.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie,

I was wondering you if you had any information/knowledge as to Disney's advancement in theming/facade design early on in the history of the parks. When I look at photos of Disneyland in the early days, it's clear that imagineers (if in fact they were the ones doing the theming) were on the right track but not "quite there" yet. Then you look at next two parks Disney built, EPCOT in particular, and the authenticity with which these showbuildings were crafted is gorgeous. The DL Fantasyland redo in '83 was also around this time.

Were imagineers sent to learn at a particular design/sculpting institute? Was this outsourced or did Disney use guys from thier movie studio? Architects? Who are the Disney theme team now? Thanks so much Eddie.

Here's one of the legends who designed Main Street and oversaw the Art Direction back then.
http://www.mouseplanet.com/8561/Tribute_to_Imagineer_Marvin_Davis

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie,

I was wondering you if you had any information/knowledge as to Disney's advancement in theming/facade design early on in the history of the parks. When I look at photos of Disneyland in the early days, it's clear that imagineers (if in fact they were the ones doing the theming) were on the right track but not "quite there" yet. Then you look at next two parks Disney built, EPCOT in particular, and the authenticity with which these showbuildings were crafted is gorgeous. The DL Fantasyland redo in '83 was also around this time.

Were imagineers sent to learn at a particular design/sculpting institute? Was this outsourced or did Disney use guys from thier movie studio? Architects? Who are the Disney theme team now? Thanks so much Eddie.

Very interesting question. For one, budget and time played a role in the facade design for the original Disneyland. Fantasyland was not much more than sheet metal jousting "tents" and canvas when the 1983 version is what would have happened if they had the budget. Look at the Castle, it's pretty modest. Art Directors from the studios were driving the design then (Marvin Davis, Harper Goff) and they are typical of the design style that was prevalent in the movies back then. Cornices and moldings, even window depth were exaggerated in movie sets to create visual depth as the lights were so bright back then that you needed more shadows to read on film. Disneyland has that and it makes the facades more charming and cute. WDW obeys history and is more derivative of that. The DL buildings were more "scaled down", or tinier overall and had less ornament due to cost. You are right, the sculpted ornament is pretty minimal and simplistic, but DL depicts a rural small town, so to me, the level of ornament seems to be enough.

WDW Main Street is based on bigger and bolder architecture as its basis and even the later EPCOT work was of a different, more full scale size and had a much higher level of ornamentation and in many cases done or overseen by the same talent from Fox Studios. I'd say budget not talent is what grew over time, but to your point it seems to have matured and learned from the past.

Sadly, most all of this talent has passed on and today's facades suffer from a lack of classically trained depth in the details as schools don't teach it, and CAD programs compromise it. Where do you learn forced perspective?

This may be a bit surprising, but I prefer the earlier DL designs in some cases as they more skillfully deal with proportion and scale. EPCOT however, does forced perspective well as Canada really tricks your eye.

Somehow the facades at Disneyland's Main Street have the most soul and charm, whereas WDW has the overwhelming ability to wow you with the scope of it all. Both succeed in different ways in my opinion. Great topic, thanks for asking.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Yes, there are a few of my idols in the auto industry, Colin Chapman, Gordon Murray, Enzo Ferrari, Chip Foose, and now Eddie Sotto for his work on Pimp my Ride

WOW! Thanks, but I would not consider my work on that show "simplicity and restraint!" (Search the "Season 4 Episode Malibu" in iTunes. An Area 51 Alien Squad Car Episode. I did the design on this Malibu with electro luminescent "glow in the dark" body art and seats. Fun stuff, but not exactly MOMA material!)

Here's something you might think is pretty cool I worked on years ago. A "James Bond styled" Aston Martin showroom in a private airlock club.

http://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/aston_martin_la.php3

 

[ChrisFL]

WOW! Thanks, but I would not consider my work on that show "simplicity and restraint!" (Search the "Season 4 Episode Malibu" in iTunes. An Area 51 Alien Squad Car Episode. I did the design on this Malibu with electro luminescent "glow in the dark" body art and seats. Fun stuff, but not exactly MOMA material!)

Here's something you might think is pretty cool I worked on years ago. A "James Bond styled" Aston Martin showroom in a private airlock club.

http://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/aston_martin_la.php3

Right, I was meaning that each of those people had a unique thing they added to cars, even if yours didn't affect car manufacturers directly, its still something I wish I could do (with a budget like that)

 

[AEfx]

Since it seems to be the topic of the day...the reason I'm happy to say bye-bye to Jobs is that hopefully his short-sighted "let's be the new content monopoly!" efforts will be curbed somewhat, because he's just hurting the industries and themselves. Look at the announcement today about TV rentals being phased out - you mean, people won't pay a buck for a 24-hour period to watch a show that was just on broadcast TV last night? You don't say, LOL.

Also under his seemingly personal effort, the fact they won't put FLASH on iDevices, or that they STILL don't provide a SD slot, which everything down to my GPS and even my sneakers have these days. I mean, I get why not - they can charge $100 difference between iPod 16GB and 32GB, when I could buy a 32GB mini-SD card for $20 and buy as many as I want. And, want to replace your battery? Risk pulling apart your entire phone or pay them $80, lose your phone for a week or two as they mail them off, and get it back totally blank.

Grrr...LOL. Sorry to go on a rant...because I do love my iPhone. But I won't touch an iPad without an SD slot (not at those prices). I'd like one, but no way. I think it all drives me nuts because if they just stopped with all this proprietary garbage (on things it doesn't need to be on - like SD cards and batteries) which is simply designed to increase the load on customers artificially, Android wouldn't even exist and Apple truly would be king of the world, not well-heeled bully as they have turned out as.

Who knew fifteen years ago, Bill Gates would become a philanthropist and Jobs would be the guy in the corner with an evil little grin, twittling his fingers together trying to plot to find a way to take over the music, movie, and television industries by overcharging for content his company had no hand in creating.

/end rant, LOL

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Since it seems to be the topic of the day...the reason I'm happy to say bye-bye to Jobs is that hopefully his short-sighted "let's be the new content monopoly!" efforts will be curbed somewhat, because he's just hurting the industries and themselves. Look at the announcement today about TV rentals being phased out - you mean, people won't pay a buck for a 24-hour period to watch a show that was just on broadcast TV last night? You don't say, LOL.

Also under his seemingly personal effort, the fact they won't put FLASH on iDevices, or that they STILL don't provide a SD slot, which everything down to my GPS and even my sneakers have these days. I mean, I get why not - they can charge $100 difference between iPod 16GB and 32GB, when I could buy a 32GB mini-SD card for $20 and buy as many as I want. And, want to replace your battery? Risk pulling apart your entire phone or pay them $80, lose your phone for a week or two as they mail them off, and get it back totally blank.

Grrr...LOL. Sorry to go on a rant...because I do love my iPhone. But I won't touch an iPad without an SD slot (not at those prices). I'd like one, but no way. I think it all drives me nuts because if they just stopped with all this proprietary garbage (on things it doesn't need to be on - like SD cards and batteries) which is simply designed to increase the load on customers artificially, Android wouldn't even exist and Apple truly would be king of the world, not well-heeled bully as they have turned out as.

Who knew fifteen years ago, Bill Gates would become a philanthropist and Jobs would be the guy in the corner with an evil little grin, twittling his fingers together trying to plot to find a way to take over the music, movie, and television industries by overcharging for content his company had no hand in creating.

/end rant, LOL

I bought this Apple SD card adapter for iPad, called the Camera kit. http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC531ZM/A?fnode=MTc0MjU4NjE&mco=MjEwMDgzMDg

I think adding slots and ports force it to be heavier and thicker and so does creating conventional battery removal options. MacBook Air took away the CD drive, (that's huge) but WiFi and cloud computing was/is the future so Apple leads that in a sometimes harsh way. they wanted the thinnest machine ever, and they now perfected it. I bought the external DVD drive adapter and I seldom if ever use it. I have a VGA adapter for my iPad and it has copyright protection inside it because of the studios not wanting me to project certain movies, not Apple. That's the reason the Air does not have removable batteries like the older machines did. You can do it yourself with a screwdriver. http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Installing-MacBook-Air-Models-A1237-and-A1304-Battery/848/1

Not having Flash is because they think it's inferior and causes crashes, eats memory, etc. They could sell tons more iPads if they compromised, but they won't. A greedier company would accept it and even more market domination. They care about the performance of their product so they boldly dumped it. and In fact it's making Adobe rethink the engineering of their radically overpriced software. Talk about greed for a non intuitive product!

While I do think there is a certain irony to the all encompassing bigger brother of iCloud coming, and the old 1984 commercial demonizing IBM for the same thing. On the other hand, I also remember pre iTunes when CD's cost from 12 to 20 bucks a piece in a store (like average 16.99 for some obscure thing at Tower) and iTunes brought that all down to around 10 bucks on average. Prices have come down. Great songs that were trapped on a crummy album that record companies forced you to buy were made available as album singles for 99 cents by Apple. Love only buying what I like. Steve broke that price cartel and the record companies screamed over it. He proved that people would pay something less (not what the record companies charged) for the music versus stealing it and they did. All of the DRM stuff is from the record companies and studios, not Apple.

Appreciate your thoughts..good rant..

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Right, I was meaning that each of those people had a unique thing they added to cars, even if yours didn't affect car manufacturers directly, its still something I wish I could do (with a budget like that)

Sorry, went right over my hood, er, head.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

On a design note. Some of the links and info from this thread have inspired me a bit. I'd never heard of IAPPA but am considering attending this year to see how things are evolving. I am no longer interested in residential work...been there/done that...but am very interested in the idea of theming more of our everyday experiences..i.e. shopping, dining, or even entertainment. As I search for a new career path to hold my interests for the next 10-20 years this is certainly intriguing to me.

You might investigate the members of the THEA, Themed Entertainment Association. IAAPA is more carnival oriented.

http://www.teaconnect.org/

There will be a September social mixer held at WDI and non members can get in for 10 bucks. You can talk to those who do this and get a more real impression of how much and where the work is.

http://www.teaconnect.org/events/w-division-social-mixer

 

[david10225]

Your UNCLE Avitar

Off topic , but betraying my age...my best friend and I used to play "U.N.C.L.E when we were kids. I even had "walkie talkies" that looked like the pen they used

 

[wedenterprises]

You might investigate the members of the THEA, Themed Entertainment Association. IAAPA is more carnival oriented.

http://www.teaconnect.org/

There will be a September social mixer held at WDI and non members can get in for 10 bucks. You can talk to those who do this and get a more real impression of how much and where the work is.

http://www.teaconnect.org/events/w-division-social-mixer

Thanks for the heads up on this event, Eddie. What kind of folks might be attending this event? Could be a great place to network.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks for the heads up on this event, Eddie. What kind of folks might be attending this event? Could be a great place to network.

Look up the THEA sponsors and members list on there somewhere..usually industry people.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Off topic , but betraying my age...my best friend and I used to play "U.N.C.L.E when we were kids. I even had "walkie talkies" that looked like the pen they used

I wanted that stuff but never had it. Especially the yellow badge. Love the pen phones...Illya was my hero as a kid. Wore my hair that way! I broke down and bought the DVD Box Set last year. Been watching them systematically. The AMT Piranha car they had was super hip. Cramped but cool.

http://www.c-we.com/piranha/UNCLEcar.htm

 

[yeti]

I know I haven't been partaking in the conversation, but I thought I'd mention that our family just returned from a fine dinner at Rivera. To anyone who's ever in town-do stop by. First of all, outstanding service; I must give my regards to our waiter, Antonio- he was incredibly informative, offhandedly detailing the items on the menu, reciting bits of the restaurant's history, and was always exceptionally polite. Speaking of exceptional, the food is fantastic- we loved the diversity of having multiple menus available for the different rooms, it was a great thematic touch. I tried the "duck enfrigolada" as an entrée, and it was perfect-never thought duck would go so well with goat cheese!

I must also commend Mr. Sotto for the in-house design. The pre-dining lounge chairs were-like the style of the menus-highly inventive (and comfortable). We were seated in the "Sangre" room, where Antonio gave us the room's corresponding menu (the food in here was from Spain, I believe) and described the story behind the "tequila wall". Among the details, we especially got a kick out of the conquistador helmet-lamps!

The overall experience felt just like the work of an imagineer: smart, original, creative, and fun. And the food was phenomenal. Great stuff! Four thumbs way up! :wave:

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

 

[KevinYee]

A key computer designer from back-when (the guy who standardized the byte as having 8 bits rather than six) has a book which talks about ALL design principles: http://www.amazon.com/Design-Essays-Computer-Scientist/dp/0201362988. One of his key ideas is that the crucial element to recognize is exactly WHAT is scarce (there's usually just one thing). The answer is not always money. On a beachfront home, space may be scarce. On a moon rocket, lightweight materials are scarce.

How does this play out in Imagineering theme park rides? Certainly real estate is frequently scarce (Splash, Mansion, Pirates, and Indy zoom outside Disneyland's berm for this reason), but the principle might apply for other things, too. I could argue that the Queen of Hearts restaurant in Tokyo Disneyland is so successful because it recognized a scarcity of 1) vibrant colors in that part of Fantasyland, and 2) character-driven restaurants in the Disney universe. Or is this kind of thinking off base?

 

[StageFrenzy]

A key computer designer from back-when (the guy who standardized the byte as having 8 bits rather than six) has a book which talks about ALL design principles: http://www.amazon.com/Design-Essays-Computer-Scientist/dp/0201362988. One of his key ideas is that the crucial element to recognize is exactly WHAT is scarce (there's usually just one thing). The answer is not always money. On a beachfront home, space may be scarce. On a moon rocket, lightweight materials are scarce.

How does this play out in Imagineering theme park rides? Certainly real estate is frequently scarce (Splash, Mansion, Pirates, and Indy zoom outside Disneyland's berm for this reason), but the principle might apply for other things, too. I could argue that the Queen of Hearts restaurant in Tokyo Disneyland is so successful because it recognized a scarcity of 1) vibrant colors in that part of Fantasyland, and 2) character-driven restaurants in the Disney universe. Or is this kind of thinking off base?

Its been pointed out before by other people but, TSMM and its success at each park could be an example of the scarcity principle. It one of the few attractions that appeals to everyone no matter the age at DHS.

DCA has 25 "Attractions" that allow any height.

DHS has under 20 "Attractions" total including must sees such as journey into Narnia, Sounds Dangerous, Academy of television arts and sciences plaza and the American film institute showcase.

The result is it is one of the hardest attractions to get into at DHS while a relative breeze at DCA.

 

[ChrisFL]

I know I haven't been partaking in the conversation, but I thought I'd mention that our family just returned from a fine dinner at Rivera. To anyone who's ever in town-do stop by. First of all, outstanding service; I must give my regards to our waiter, Antonio- he was incredibly informative, offhandedly detailing the items on the menu, reciting bits of the restaurant's history, and was always exceptionally polite. Speaking of exceptional, the food is fantastic- we loved the diversity of having multiple menus available for the different rooms, it was a great thematic touch. I tried the "duck enfrigolada" as an entrée, and it was perfect-never thought duck would go so well with goat cheese!

I must also commend Mr. Sotto for the in-house design. The pre-dining lounge chairs were-like the style of the menus-highly inventive (and comfortable). We were seated in the "Sangre" room, where Antonio gave us the room's corresponding menu (the food in here was from Spain, I believe) and described the story behind the "tequila wall". Among the details, we especially got a kick out of the conquistador helmet-lamps!

The overall experience felt just like the work of an imagineer: smart, original, creative, and fun. And the food was phenomenal. Great stuff! Four thumbs way up! :wave:

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

The next time I get to LA I'll definitely check it out!