Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

What I find most disappointing about Starbucks is that in prior discussions on the matter I have read far too many comments claiming that Coca-Cola is just as inappropriate for the time period of Main Street, USA. On Buena Vista Street, I am not sure I would consider Starbucks too big of a break with theme. To me Buena Vista Street is looking more like a tribute that still exists in this world than existing in its own world.

I also learned today that "ye" was originally pronounced "the."

1886..."Coca-Cola" IS Main Street USA at it's very essence. Hills Bros. was from that time as well. Coke in of itself was "turn of the century" change. Soda was new. BV Street is a better fit.

http://inventors.about.com/od/cstartinventions/a/coca_cola.htm

 

[lazyboy97o]

It will be packed from open till close, a photo op, a huge hit with guests for sure, it's an improvement in quality of their coffee and that's great. I'll buy their coffee too as I'm a Starbucks fan, but to me Starbucks symbolizes the homogenization of cities and emerged as a recent brand unlike Coca Cola and Kodak. Besides, the brand essence of Starbucks is not being served fast, it's a one off operation. I'm not sure how well that goes down in a theme park. Kind of the opposite. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but I just want to escape to another world and have unique experiences.

Disney does seem to be interest in increasing the number of smaller, less throughput friendly experiences, such as xPass or even more elaborate meet and greets. I am kind of surprised that there has not been an attempt to capitalize on this with Coca-Cola by offering jerked Coca-Cola products on Main Street, USA. Maybe even use the Kosher, cane sugar syrup for added authenticity. :slurp:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Disney does seem to be interest in increasing the number of smaller, less throughput friendly experiences, such as xPass or even more elaborate meet and greets. I am kind of surprised that there has not been an attempt to capitalize on this with Coca-Cola by offering jerked Coca-Cola products on Main Street, USA. Maybe even use the Kosher, cane sugar syrup for added authenticity. :slurp:

That's the right way to go. Make something special.

 

[lazyboy97o]

1886..."Coca-Cola" IS Main Street USA at it's very essence. Hills Bros. was from that time as well. Coke in of itself was "turn of the century" change. Soda was new. BV Street is a better fit.

http://inventors.about.com/od/cstartinventions/a/coca_cola.htm

I knew about Coca-Cola's age (the beverage has a rather fascinating history and even its own themed experience here in Atlanta) but when Starbucks was rumored a few months back I did so e quick research on the original Main Street sponsors. I was amazed at how many actually dated back to the period. The company may have been using a different name, but still dated to the time.

Speaking of Coca-Cola, do you think there is anything to be said for confidence regarding a design making it into something more? At the time of its creation, the Coca-Cola logo was rather generic, like a company today using a humanist font in a shade of blue. The logo stuck around mostly because Robert Woodruff was a stubborn ______ who refused almost every and all changes when it came to any aspect of Coca-Cola (but did approve New Coke in retirement shortly before his death, but that's a different story that I think has a lot to say about a number of subjects). Now today this generic, outdated logo is an American icon.

 

[bcoachable]

Eddie-
I saw that Epic Mickey 2 is coming out soon... I am not a gamer most of the time, but I did play EM1, and have goofed around with the Online PotC game. They both had that over the top disney touch...
I am wondering, is there a division of imagineering that helps with the gaming side of disney?

 

[Cornballman]

Eddie-
I saw that Epic Mickey 2 is coming out soon... I am not a gamer most of the time, but I did play EM1, and have goofed around with the Online PotC game. They both had that over the top disney touch...
I am wondering, is there a division of imagineering that helps with the gaming side of disney?

I was wondering the same thing because I thought EM1 was wonderful! It actually got me back in to Disney. I had no idea of Oswald or any some of those old Mickey cartoons before I played that game.

 

[COProgressFan]

It will be packed from open till close, a photo op, a huge hit with guests for sure, it's an improvement in quality of their coffee and that's great. I'll buy their coffee too as I'm a Starbucks fan, but to me Starbucks symbolizes the homogenization of cities and emerged as a recent brand unlike Coca Cola and Kodak. No matter how much you theme it, it's iconic. Like putting a McDonald's in the Sahara on an Oasis. The symbolism is bigger than the product, "it's everywhere". You cannot escape today's urban world even if you pay admission. I know and agree that guests will love it. They don't care. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but I just want to escape to another world and have unique experiences.

What's interesting to me is that Disney is unable/unwilling to produce a better quality coffee product throughout the resorts on its own. Clearly there is a strong demand, but instead of putting forth the effort to open their own gourmet coffee shops (with all the development, extra training, etc. they would require) they feel it is best to team up with Starbucks. In one way, it make sense, because Starbucks clearly has expertise here (and people know and like Starbucks coffee), but in another way it just shows Disney's lack of confidence in trying to do great (or new, or different) things themselves.

In the end, I think it all comes down to the execution. If it fits in well to the location, and feels "authentic" then it works. If it feels just like a Disney-fied Starbucks, then I think it fails, thematically.

That said, as a coffee drinker (and not even a big Starbucks fan) I am still glad they are doing this, because the Nescafe stuff they serve in most locations is repulsive.

 

[lazyboy97o]

What's interesting to me is that Disney is unable/unwilling to produce a better quality coffee product throughout the resorts on its own. Clearly there is a strong demand, but instead of putting forth the effort to open their own gourmet coffee shops (with all the development, extra training, etc. they would require) they feel it is best to team up with Starbucks. In one way, it make sense, because Starbucks clearly has expertise here (and people know and like Starbucks coffee), but in another way it just shows Disney's lack of confidence in trying to do great (or new, or different) things themselves.

It seems to be Disney's modus operandi of late. Animation go stale? Buy Pixar. Botch a park based on California? Throw in long established characters. Tired of running night clubs? Hope that Schussler Creative will bail you out. Focus too much on young girls and alienate young boys? Buy Marvel. Regret not being proactive about The Wizarding World of Harry Potter? Run out and quickly buy the rights to Avatar.

 

[KevinYee]

Disney does still deliver unique experiences. If Test Track turns out to be the first Augmented Reality (AR) rides, that will be one more example (there are hints of what they can do in Toy Story Mania and Where's the Fire).

That said, starbucks just screams mundane, which, frankly, McDonald's did for me too. Why is Coke acceptable?

My argument is that we are EASED into accepting Coca-Cola. We see it first on Main Street, where it's positioned as part of the 1901 atmosphere, displayed in old font and with antique-looking signs.

Our minds thus conditioned, we don't blink twice when we see a sign in Tomorrowland that sells Coke. The product has been Disney-ized, and brought into the kingdom.

I don't think they did that perfectly with McDonald's, though they tried to. I hope they try with Starbucks. The advantage of Main Street is that everyone has to pass through there, so there was no risk you'd see an Adventureland Coke before your brain was conditioned by Main Street.

 

[RandySavage]

Why is Coke acceptable?

My argument is that we are EASED into accepting Coca-Cola. We see it first on Main Street, where it's positioned as part of the 1901 atmosphere, displayed in old font and with antique-looking signs.

Not only that, but as Eddie alluded to, Coca-Cola works in the older settings because it was already ingrained in our culture by 1905.

To use another hypothetical example. If Eddie's 1930s Main Street had come to pass and management decided to lease some retail clothing space to Macy's (May Group), it could work, because, if executed well, Macy's was part of that era.

Putting a Starbucks in Main Street, even if themed to period, is like Old Navy or The Gap taking up space in the above hypothetical.

I'm not losing sleep over it (if well integrated), but it is a small movement away from authenticity.

 

[Daannzzz]

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...70652755742.424086.11081890741&type=3&theater
This looks nicely done.

 

[HMF]

It will be packed from open till close, a photo op, a huge hit with guests for sure, it's an improvement in quality of their coffee and that's great. I'll buy their coffee too as I'm a Starbucks fan, but to me Starbucks symbolizes the homogenization of cities and emerged as a recent brand unlike Coca Cola and Kodak. No matter how much you theme it, it's iconic. Like putting a McDonald's in the Sahara on an Oasis. The symbolism is bigger than the product, "it's everywhere". You cannot escape today's urban world even if you pay admission. I know and agree that guests will love it. They don't care. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but I just want to escape to another world and have unique experiences.

I will let Lewis Black speak my opinion on the Starbucks issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENGUYeiGtNk

Just wait till there is one on every corner of Main Street U.S.A.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The ubiquity of Starbucks that makes it a but of jokes and criticism pales in comparison to the ubiquity of Coca-Cola, which I would guess is a likely reason why it goes unnoticed even in lands like Liberty Square. It was a bold decision to bar Coca-Cola products from The Wizarding World of Harry Potter as many are surprised to find it unavailable for purchase within the land.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

It will be packed from open till close, a photo op, a huge hit with guests for sure, it's an improvement in quality of their coffee and that's great. I'll buy their coffee too as I'm a Starbucks fan, but to me Starbucks symbolizes the homogenization of cities and emerged as a recent brand unlike Coca Cola and Kodak. No matter how much you theme it, it's iconic. Like putting a McDonald's in the Sahara on an Oasis. The symbolism is bigger than the product, "it's everywhere". You cannot escape today's urban world even if you pay admission. I know and agree that guests will love it. They don't care. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but I just want to escape to another world and have unique experiences.

Oh God, thank you. I too start my day with coffee. But no matter how bad the coffee they serve me, it pales into insignificance in comparison to my wish to escape the world. I go to Disney precisely because I do not wat to see iHops, McDonald's and Walmarts.

Potterland doesn't serve 'Budweiser Butterbeer'. There is nothing there that is not from the world of Potter. That is the secret, the magic ingredient.
If you survey guests what they liked about Potter, hardly anyone will name what is absent. They will say 'cool snowy roofs!', or 'loved that thrill ride!'.
The notion that everything present is Potter and everything non-Potter is absent, commonly escapes the casual visitor. He doesn't notice it consciously, or else will not be able to express it anyway.
Yet it is the cause for the happy feeling, the invitation to curiously explore and discover more. Discoveries that are endlessly rewarded until the point of sheer elation is reached. The magic.

The thought of a Starbucks smack dab in the middle of Potter feels absurd. Disney should strive to achieve this same quality of thematic placemaking as the market leader.


If you build a 'theme park by guest survey', it will be a Planet Hollywood indoor coaster with Stabucks coffee served by a girl in a Belle outfit. Disney shouldn't listen to guests.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

That said, starbucks just screams mundane, which, frankly, McDonald's did for me too. Why is Coke acceptable?

To me, Coca-Cola works for the same reason that Heinz ketchup in the parks works. Or Smucker's jam or Nutrasweet sweetener. They're labels. Individual products instead of 'places you visit'.

It is fine to serve Heinz sauces with fries in Frontierland, but not to have a McDonald's serve you those fries.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The ubiquity of Starbucks that makes it a but of jokes and criticism pales in comparison to the ubiquity of Coca-Cola, which I would guess is a likely reason why it goes unnoticed even in lands like Liberty Square. It was a bold decision to bar Coca-Cola products from The Wizarding World of Harry Potter as many are surprised to find it unavailable for purchase within the land.

Coca-Cola was sold in Soda Fountains authentically as part of Main Streets all over America in the 1880's. It actually was synonmous with America by WW2. True, Liberty Square is a bit put of theme for Coke. I like that WWHP does not sell it.

 

[KevinYee]

To me, Coca-Cola works for the same reason that Heinz ketchup in the parks works. Or Smucker's jam or Nutrasweet sweetener. They're labels. Individual products instead of 'places you visit'.

It is fine to serve Heinz sauces with fries in Frontierland, but not to have a McDonald's serve you those fries.

Impeccable logic. Works for me!

 

[RandySavage]

Oh God, thank you. I too start my day with coffee. But no matter how bad the coffee they serve me, it pales into insignificance in comparison to my wish to escape the world.

...He doesn't notice it consciously, or else will not be able to express it anyway.

Yet it is the cause for the happy feeling, the invitation to curiously explore and discover more. Discoveries that are endlessly rewarded until the point of sheer elation is reached. The magic...

...If you build a 'theme park by guest survey', it will be a Planet Hollywood indoor coaster with Stabucks coffee served by a girl in a Belle outfit. Disney shouldn't listen to guests.

Very nicely put, and I fully agree. The visionary knows what the public wants better/before they do.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I will let Lewis Black speak my opinion on the Starbucks issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGke6pnT1d0
Just wait till there is one on every corner of Main Street U.S.A.

That link took me to the Beach Boys.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

To me, Coca-Cola works for the same reason that Heinz ketchup in the parks works. Or Smucker's jam or Nutrasweet sweetener. They're labels. Individual products instead of 'places you visit'.

It is fine to serve Heinz sauces with fries in Frontierland, but not to have a McDonald's serve you those fries.

Good point. It's easier to deal with products rather than places. I like it best when products are invented and you can only have them at the park. Boysenberry Punch at Knott's, Dole Whip at Disneyland. Such a missed opportunity. Dodger Dogs come to mind.