AVATAR land construction progress

ParksAndPixels

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
He has a few points but why does it always have to regress to Universal vs. Disney? I get comparisons are going to happen but it's getting old. Disney is actually doing things. Just not at the speed we want them to (or projects you may not want). Do most of us know how construction works? No. I mean, yes they appear to take forever, but if no one "knew" they spread out costs over several years, I seriously doubt a lot of this back and forth would happen. Do people expect it erected overnight? The problem is we knew of Avatar years before they bothered to start construction. 3 years seems to be the norm for them with construction, why is everyone acting that this is some surprise? They started this year and it's going to be done in 2017. The problem is we've known of this since what, 2011?

The problem with this project, FLE, AK ROL, Harambe, DHS, etc... (No no construction happening here... ;)) is that because of the technology at our fingertips, and instant gratification we all want to know everything, and we all want results now! So Disney is in an interesting situation. WE want to know what's coming the moment something is closed, but the. We have no patience to allow for demolition, structural construction, infastructure, and finishing work. If we want Disney quality attractions & finishes then we need to allow them time to work. The same process had been done for many years, in fact WDI is pressured to move faster today then in the old days, but we the consumer have REALLY changed.

Not debating you, just piggy backing... :)
 
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unkadug

Follower of "Saget"The Cult
;);););)

The problem with this project, FLE, AK ROL, Harambe, DHS, etc... (No no construction happening here... ;)) is that because of the technology at our fingertips, and instant gratification we all want to know everything, and we all want results now! So Disney is in an interesting situation. WE want to know what's coming the moment something is closed, but the. We have no patience to allow for demolition, structural construction, infastructure, and finishing work. If we want Disney quality attractions & finishes then we need to allow them time to work. The same process had been done for many years, in fact WDI is pressured to move faster today then in the old days, but we the consumer have REALLY changed.

Not debating you, just piggy backing... :)
The same process that you talk about has been greatly stretched out over the years. Consider that construction of E.P.C.O.T. began in May of 1979 and was ready for opening on Oct. 1, 1982. Quite an achievement when looking at the snails pace that they operate at today.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
The same process that you talk about has been greatly stretched out over the years. Consider that construction of E.P.C.O.T. began in May of 1979 and was ready for opening on Oct. 1, 1982. Quite an achievement when looking at the snails pace that they operate at today.

I don't understand why people use that as some evidence of Disney working quickly. In fact, that's the same ~3 year timeframe for construction for Pandora. EPCOT Center was obviously a lot more but things were simply built simultaneously (and, y'know, not everything was ready on opening day). And it had the benefit of being an isolated construction site so there was no walls/access issues (not really an problem for Pandora but is the case for other WDW projects).

Certainly, Disney could build quicker if they wanted to, but building Epcot isn't really a good counter example.
 

ParksAndPixels

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
The same process that you talk about has been greatly stretched out over the years. Consider that construction of E.P.C.O.T. began in May of 1979 and was ready for opening on Oct. 1, 1982. Quite an achievement when looking at the snails pace that they operate at today.

Construction yes, but from concept to completion, no. And whether we realize it or not, because things change so rapidly today compared to the 70s & 80s, they often may close an attraction before everything is 100% ready to roll. Also much of the WED team was dedicated to the EPCOT project whereas WDI is spread out thinner than that today across many smaller projects. Not saying it's the best scenario but that's another discussion. Trust me, I'd rather see the fast progress of old, but the environment has changed drastically. But I don't fault WDI but moreso the new Disney mindset.
 

unkadug

Follower of "Saget"The Cult
I don't understand why people use that as some evidence of Disney working quickly. In fact, that's the same ~3 year timeframe for construction for Pandora. EPCOT Center was obviously a lot more but things were simply built simultaneously (and, y'know, not everything was ready on opening day). And it had the benefit of being an isolated construction site so there was no walls/access issues (not really an problem for Pandora but is the case for other WDW projects).

Certainly, Disney could build quicker if they wanted to, but building Epcot isn't really a good counter example.
Because it's pretty darn impressive and looks good on paper.
 

Kman101

Well-Known Member
Not defending a slow pace but we also have to remember the ground, I believe, needed a lot of work done (not the technical term, I'm sure, LOL) before anything could be built on it, especially considering what type of environment they're building.
 

twebber55

Well-Known Member
Not defending a slow pace but we also have to remember the ground, I believe, needed a lot of work done (not the technical term, I'm sure, LOL) before anything could be built on it, especially considering what type of environment they're building.
I agree it takes too long for construction but they re at a different time as a company to them there is no need to pump out construction projects that fast whether we want them or not
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I agree it takes too long for construction but they re at a different time as a company to them there is no need to pump out construction projects that fast whether we want them or not
This is the real answer. They built EPCOT faster because they had to. When EPCOT Center was being built P&R was carrying TWDC. The studio side of the business wasn't exactly booming and there was no ABC/ESPN yet. They had to borrow money and invest an incredible amount of capital to build EPCOT plus beg/borrow/steal from corporate sponsors. They needed that money to start generating cash flows ASAP or the company could have been in real trouble.

Flash forward to today and there is so much more to the business. They have no problem laying out millions and even billions of dollars that won't start generating profits for years. It's a blessing and a curse. They also have a much bigger family to feed. There are a bunch of international parks, multiple movie studios, DCL and even DVC. The bottom line is Disney doesn't need to work at full speed on these projects and spreading out the work allows them to manage their capital spend and balance sheet and probably save some money on construction costs. Working 24hrs a day full speed ultimately would cost more.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
There is really nothing odd about this project other than they revealed it way way too early in the creative process.

A 2017 start date still is under 3 years for construction. I can be convinced the feet dragging could cut out 6 months perhaps... but any more? No way.

Potter was 2.5 and even it wasn't even quite ready for prime time. Shanghai Disney has had extra money and notoriously quick Chinese construction timelines and even that project is massively behind schedule.

Why does this project in particular draw so much ire when many other similar industries operate on these prolonged timelines? Heck look at some of Pixar's movie projects next year that we also learned about before Iger dropped Avatar unsuspectingly on Imagineers. Things get tossed out, re-worked, argued over and dragged out, but the hope is what eventually comes is the better for it.

Want to know another project that was announced NINE years before it debuted? Tokyo Disney Sea...
 

flyerjab

Well-Known Member
This is the real answer. They built EPCOT faster because they had to. When EPCOT Center was being built P&R was carrying TWDC. The studio side of the business wasn't exactly booming and there was no ABC/ESPN yet. They had to borrow money and invest an incredible amount of capital to build EPCOT plus beg/borrow/steal from corporate sponsors. They needed that money to start generating cash flows ASAP or the company could have been in real trouble.

Flash forward to today and there is so much more to the business. They have no problem laying out millions and even billions of dollars that won't start generating profits for years. It's a blessing and a curse. They also have a much bigger family to feed. There are a bunch of international parks, multiple movie studios, DCL and even DVC. The bottom line is Disney doesn't need to work at full speed on these projects and spreading out the work allows them to manage their capital spend and balance sheet and probably save some money on construction costs. Working 24hrs a day full speed ultimately would cost more.

Absolutely LOVE this post @GoofGoof! Stated eloquently and levelheadedly as the majority of your posts always are.

What I have found on these forums, and the world in general, is that people are going to find something to complain about. I never engage these individuals as it is a pointless debate. I have seen people complain about the color of the railings on the faux elevated line in DS. I have seen complaints that TDO is a cheap company because the new act in UK doesn't have uniforms (are you kidding me??). Are they entitled to their opinions? Absolutely. Do I think some of their opinions are ridiculous? Absolutely. I simply choose not to entertain their particular egos in these matters of minutiae. At times it seems (to me anyway) that people desperately look for something to complain about.

The problem with this particular subject - project timelines - is that there is a different, and more aggressive business model being used up the highway. And of course it is used as an example time and time again on these forums that TDO is too slow, blah blah. Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But I agree with the point that both you and @BrianLo (also a great post) are making. The actual timeline of this project is not much different than other projects that TDO has completed. Also, the EPCOT comparison is interesting because it was a massive project not quite completed in 3 years. Now there may have been other things Disney was working on at the time EPCOT was being built, but I bet most of their resources in Florida were focused on the EPCOT project.

Right now at this time, besides Pandora, there are also the following: night safaris, RoL, FlameTree refurb, Harambe expansion (again), DAK Outfitters expansion, new TS at Pizzafari, new Tamarin exhibit, refurbs to the Pangani Jungle Trail, ToL refurb, Bug's Life refurb, ToL garden refurb, massive DS transformation, the MK hub, major BC refurb, major refurb and DVC addition at the Poly, refurbs around WL pool area, MM+, monorail and Frozen in Norway (queue angry mobs). I could have also included DVC at GF, new busses, a new bus load/unload at MK, a second dock at the TTC, major BW refurb, 7DMT, Spice Road Table, and so on. Additionally, entering 2015, the huge DHS transformation is set to start. There are other things I have probably missed.

To compare WDW to UNI, or to WDW of the EPCOT era, is a tough comparison to make and one that I don't find appropriate. Modern WDW is a massive resort that is a part of a huge worldwide entertainment conglomerate. I feel that they have to approach construction differently. For a present day comparison, UNI is very good at targeting one or two projects at a time and aggressively tackling them. They seem to have written the book on that approach and are excellent at it. But IMHO they can be because they are in a place currently that reminds me of where TDO was when EPCOT was being built. To me, WDW of today is in a constant state of executing multiple projects, from small to massive, as the WDW empire is too large to focus on only one or a few projects at a time. To me, it makes sense from a business perspective and from a P&R perspective to proceed how they do at the current time. It also makes sense how UNI (and WDW of the past) approaches expansion projects, simply because they are in a different place than WDW is currently.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
The Universal example is Potter on the West coast. Also announced in 2011, a five year turn around for a clone...

To decide its extrinsic hold ups are ok but somehow Avatar is the worst offender seems one-sided.

Obviously the issue is Pandora must take on the weight of a decade of stagnation/fan frustration. The same thing that has demonized New Fantasyland, a beautiful and perfectly serviceable addition, that unfortunately was not built to the Internet demo of young-ish males. At least Frozen can absorb the worst of it the year before. :p

At least we've moved beyond this being a complete waste of time expansion to simply why is it taking so long... I see that as real progress!
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
The Universal example is Potter on the West coast. Also announced in 2011, a five year turn around for a clone...

To decide its extrinsic hold ups are ok but somehow Avatar is the worst offender seems one-sided.

Obviously the issue is Pandora must take on the weight of a decade of stagnation/fan frustration. The same thing that has demonized New Fantasyland, a beautiful and perfectly serviceable addition, that unfortunately was not built to the Internet demo of young-ish males. At least Frozen can absorb the worst of it the year before. :p

At least we've moved beyond this being a complete waste of time expansion to simply why is it taking so long... I see that as real progress!
That's because WWoHP in Hollywood is replacing the Gibson Amphitheatre and the last performance there didn't happen till 2013. I guess the same argument could be made in Avatar's favor that it wasn't fully designed yet when announced in 2011. Let's not forget though that Diagon Alley was also pretty much confirmed at that same event in 2011 even if we didn't have full details beyond the fact that WWoHP in Orlando was going to be expanded and it opened about 3 years later in 2014. In the end maybe both announcements could've been held back a bit.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
That's because WWoHP in Hollywood is replacing the Gibson Amphitheatre and the last performance there didn't happen till 2013. I guess the same argument could be made in Avatar's favor that it wasn't fully designed yet when announced in 2011.

Yup, precisely my point. Not a knock against Potter on The West coast, just funny how a theatre contract is an acceptable excuse, but not even having started designing the thing is not.

Since when did the fan community decide having information too early is a bad thing?
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Since when did the fan community decide having information too early is a bad thing?
To follow on what @IDInstitute said its most likely because the earlier you announce the longer it seems to take to finish (heavy emphasis on "seems"). Even though construction only started this year, it seems like it's going to take 6 years for Avatar because of when it was announced. The situation would probably be much different if the announcement was made when they had all the art ready and the pictures of the models. With Harry Potter I guess they wanted to capitalize ASAP on its success in Orlando by announcing the Hollywood version so early. Come to think of it that's probably why Avatar was announced so early as well, the success of Orlando's WWoHP.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
To follow on what @IDInstitute said its most likely because the earlier you announce the longer it seems to take to finish (heavy emphasis on "seems"). Even though construction only started this year, it seems like it's going to take 6 years for Avatar because of when it was announced. The situation would probably be much different if the announcement was made when they had all the art ready and the pictures of the models. With Harry Potter I guess they wanted to capitalize ASAP on its success in Orlando by announcing the Hollywood version so early. Come to think of it that's probably why Avatar was announced so early as well, the success of Orlando's WWoHP.
I think maybe the reason they announced it early is because it was with a 3rd party. Not sure how material the contract was but it may have been something that was going to be required to be disclosed to the SEC anyway. They wouldn't be required to disclose terms, but just the fact that the relationship exists. You also had Cameron and his company who may have wanted it to be public. If you look back they really only announced the deal to bring Cameron in and build an Avatar based land. There were almost no details for a long while after that announcement.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
I do feel that part of the delay in Avatar was that there was a will they/won't they debate with construction. While nothing definitive came out, we had @WDW1974 come out saying that the project was on life support on multiple occasions. I'm just hoping to hear that for Frozen in Norway.
 

twebber55

Well-Known Member
I do feel that part of the delay in Avatar was that there was a will they/won't they debate with construction. While nothing definitive came out, we had @WDW1974 come out saying that the project was on life support on multiple occasions. I'm just hoping to hear that for Frozen in Norway.
i would say it was more about not agreeing on what they wanted to do and to a point both sides almost said forget it
 

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