A Spirited Perfect Ten

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Horizons was dying in its final years, but it only needed an update. Throughout its lifetime, the ride's massive capacity made it seem like it wasn't pulling a crowd, when in fact it handled crowds well. POTC and HM were similarly efficient before FP+ destroyed their hourly capacities.

IMHO, Horizons, WOM, and Imagination suffered from apparent sameness. The rides were extremely different, yet they were also long omnimovers full of AAs. Today, it's difficult to imagine fans complaining about that, but in the mid 90s, Epcot needed more variety. Enter Test Track, then Journey into Your Imagination, then Mission Space, and — oh dear.
In all fairness, Imagination, although, yet another omni ride had a distinctive attraction base and that was the turntable in the beginning. I used to ride it just to see that. After that I usually dozed off or tried to figure out what I wanted to see next. It had also lost it's long line of riders. If they could have kept that beginning and altered what came after it might be still going today, just like SSE. It was the catch.

The riding in the big ball along with the view of the earth on top of SSE, the turntable at Imagination and even to some degree the outside loop that WoM made that gave you a view of Epcot. The only one lacking that big spectacular moment was Horizons. They thought the "choose your own ending" was that for Horizons, but, to me it was way less then jaw dropping. The projections were beyond fuzzy and hard to know what you were even looking at. The AA's were mostly static and the dialog was pure corn, even for the 80's. It was a relaxing ride and everyone loved the smell of the oranges, but, other then that it didn't really have much going for it, in my opinion.

The measurement for success is not that it could take 2000 people an hour unless there are 2000 an hour actually going. When that number drops to 500 an hour queuing up, (guesses here, I don't have the actual numbers, just from observation) then it is classified as failing rapidly.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
An "update" wouldn't have cured the general lack of interest/excitement the general guest felt about Horizons. Yes, it had high capacity, but it wasn't a draw. And FP+ didn't "destroy" the hourly capacity of HM and PotC. The hourly capacity is exactly the same now as it was before. The MK has simply been more crowded (especially this summer as it was basically holiday-sized crowds almost every day), which is (by far) the most significant factor in longer wait times. Heck, my first trip to WDW in 1994, before FP even existed, the wait time for Splash Mountain midday was 150 minutes, and Space was 120. I wonder what people blamed for that back then without FP to be a scapegoat.

Standby waits might seem slightly longer because the line moves slower because of FP/FP+, but the fact remains that if 20,000 people can ride HM in a day, then it's 20,000 people whether there's FP+ or no FP at all. The ride still loads the same number of guests per hour regardless.

No, "fans" wouldn't complain about that, but most guests wouldn't ride those attractions, either.

Look, I flippin' adored Horizons and WoM, but they were dead. No amount of "updates" or refurbs that kept the basic attraction in-tact was going to make people suddenly flock to them, nor was it going to make sponsors suddenly interested again. Carousel of Progress is in that same category and it's barely holding on by a thread, mostly because it's a Walt-created attraction from the 60's, while WoM and Horizons were built in the 80s and didn't have the historical status that CoP does.

Spaceship Earth would probably be dead too if not for its location (people are nearly forced to ride it because of it's placement and sheer size; everyone wants to ride inside the "big golf ball").

Once again, you've misread another of my posts, approached the topic with a preconception based on what others have foamed about online, and decided a response without weighing what I actually said.

EDIT: I don't want to go back and forth arguing about anything, so please read through this and you'll see that we actually do agree more than you might think.

(1) I agreed that Epcot needed more than slow-moving omnimovers, and the park's mid-90s crisis occurred because everything appeared too similar. For the average guest, the abundance of educational AA attractions was boring. I think you misread my earlier statement too: fans were just as board as everyone else.

(2) Horizons was outdated technologically and tonally. The song, dialogue, and modern film sequences did not age well.

(3) After replacing WOM with Test Track and Imagination with a ridiculously inferior version, Horizons could have been updated rather than outright replaced. POTC and HM have proven AA attractions work when they take guests on unique experiences. Most of EPCOT Center's original ride roster wasn't unique enough, but Horizons had special segments that could have given it an edge if properly updated. Consider the IMAX screens and choose-your-own ending.

Incidentally, if I could have anything back, I would want the original Imagination, not Horizons.

(4) FP+ has altered the hourly capacity at POTC and HM because it causes queue backups that didn't exist when the attraction itself kept the line moving. For operational reasons that are difficult to quantify with theoretical numbers, FP tends to negatively affect high-capacity attractions.

The reason is partly that such rides weren't crowded all day long, and they only commanded maximum wait times for a certain period. Theoretically, FP+ wouldn't affect that flow pattern if nobody were there anyway; but by spreading guests out with bogus FastPasses for rides that don't need them (e.g. POTC), Disney has artificially creating a flow — and therefore a queue time — that wouldn't have otherwise existed. I'll go into more detail in point #5.

This isn't simply my opinion. At Disneyland in the early 2000s, Disney conceded that FP didn't work on omnimovers, and removed it from all such rides except Haunted Mansion Holiday. In Florida, HM had FP back in the 90s, but Disney pulled it out because it undermined the attraction's hourly output. I don't know the full reason FP affects high-capacity attractions differently than others, but it does, and Disney knows this.

(5) FP+ was added to many attractions in the MK to play a shell game that kept guests scattered throughout the park. At the time NextGen was approved, some execs were hoping they could avoid building new rides in the MK if FP+ simply spread people around the park. Luckily, wiser heads and better management prevailed, and Disney soon realized New FL was necessary.

I helped roll out several new programs at WDW, including NextGen. Ops did not want FP+ attached to POTC, HM, SSE, IASW, or other high-capacity attractions.

(6) For other rides that aren't crowd eaters, I like FastPass because it means I don't have to stand in long lines, and I've learned how to use FP+ to my advantage. I remember those insane wait times from the busy periods in the 90s. I have no desire to return to those days, especially now that WDW is moderately crowded nearly year-round.

(7) Spaceship Earth is the most visited attraction on property. Location, location, location. Luckily, it's a decent ride that gets high reviews—all script and descent quibbles aside.

(7) I didn't mention COP because I think it's outdated and boring, and needs to be improved ASAP. The AAs don't work, the audio is unintelligible, and the script's jokes fall flat. I sometimes ride it for a nap.

And that takes us full circle. :D
 
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tirian

Well-Known Member
In all fairness, Imagination, although, yet another omni ride had a distinctive attraction base and that was the turntable in the beginning. I used to ride it just to see that. After that I usually dozed off or tried to figure out what I wanted to see next. It had also lost it's long line of riders. If they could have kept that beginning and altered what came after it might be still going today, just like SSE. It was the catch.

The riding in the big ball along with the view of the earth on top of SSE, the turntable at Imagination and even to some degree the outside loop that WoM made that gave you a view of Epcot. The only one lacking that big spectacular moment was Horizons. They thought the "choose your own ending" was that for Horizons, but, to me it was way less then jaw dropping. The projections were beyond fuzzy and hard to know what you were even looking at. The AA's were mostly static and the dialog was pure corn, even for the 80's. It was a relaxing ride and everyone loved the smell of the oranges, but, other then that it didn't really have much going for it, in my opinion.

The measurement for success is not that it could take 2000 people an hour unless there are 2000 an hour actually going. When that number drops to 500 an hour queuing up, (guesses here, I don't have the actual numbers, just from observation) then it is classified as failing rapidly.

True points.

As I said before, Horizons WAS failing in its latter days, but it hadn't always been a failure. Epcot's high-capacity omnimovers rarely had long lines; they were built to handle crowds. SSE is still the most visited attraction at WDW, and it rarely needs its full queue space. Unfortunately, Future World was originally full of high-capacity omnimovers, and to a casual observer, they all looked the same.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
True points.

As I said before, Horizons WAS failing in its latter days, but it hadn't always been a failure. Epcot's high-capacity omnimovers rarely had long lines; they were built to handle crowds. SSE is still the most visited attraction at WDW, and it rarely needs its full queue space. Unfortunately, Future World was originally full of high-capacity omnimovers, and to a casual observer, they all looked the same.
Two things there for comment... the first is that not only was Horizons not an early failure it was, like the rest of them a very large line that extended out the door. The interior area of Horizons and WoM was large and held hundreds of people each, SSE had what you see today with the external line but it was almost always full. Over the years they all declined as people headed over to World Showcase or DHS. The indisputable fact was they went from extremely popular to walk on which still isn't a good thing if there is a huge capacity built in. It means it's not being fed properly.

The next is CoP. CoP is more then just another old ride. It represents the very beginning of active AA's, unique theater and multiple scene creations. Something never seen before. It is the mother of what we expect from theme parks today. It is one of Walt's last hands on creations and should never be lost to the desires of those that want an "E" ride, whatever that may be. There is plenty of room there to put any number of "other rides" in without disturbing that show.

The phrase "Remember, it all began with a mouse" should be altered to include "and grew and anchored with a ground breaking AA show called CoP". Please, don't ever encourage the loss of that history. Once gone is gone forever. Somethings are worth saving.
 
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tirian

Well-Known Member
Two things there for comment... the first is that not only was Horizons not an early failure it was, like the rest of them a very large line that extended out the door. The interior area of Horizons and WoM was large and held hundreds of people each, SSE had what you see today with the external line but it was almost always full. Over the years they all declined as people headed over to World Showcase or DHS. The indisputable fact was they went from extremely popular to walk on which still isn't a good thing if there is a huge capacity built in. It means it's not being fed properly.

The next is CoP. CoP is more then just another old ride. It represents the very beginning of active AA's, unique theater and multiple scene creations. Something never seen before. It is the mother of what we expect from theme parks today. It is one of Walt's last hands on creations and should never be lost to the desires of those that want an "E" ride, whatever that may be. There is plenty of room there to put any number of "other rides" in without disturbing that show.

The phrase "Remember, it all began with a mouse" should be altered to include "and grew and anchored with a ground breaking AA show called CoP". Please, don't ever encourage the loss of that history. Once gone is gone forever. Somethings are worth saving.

Well, when you put it THAT way!

Now I feel like an a$$. Okay, let's keep COP! Just update it with newer AAs. :D
 

misterID

Well-Known Member
I will say this about Horizons, a proper rehab would have been great, a reimagining would have been a game changer. Elements of Soarin with the use of IMAX screens and a finale that was used for MISSION:SPACE, were both present in that attraction and contained within the structure of a dark ride on par with SSE. And unlike M:S, Horizons was actually interactive (which mission SPACE is not) that the rider determined the outcome of the ride... Which was again used in another ride with the SSE refurb. Which, you know, with the good reviews of the GP, makes it laughable a refurbed Horizons couldn't work. The choose your ending finale was recycled and a hit... At the expense of a proper descent.

EPCOT itself needed help, it wasn't because of WOM or Horizons, but the lack of variety. Horizons on a swivel, like a kuka arm, putting you on a space walk, new technology utilizing those IMAX screens and a 3D choose your own ending FINALE would have been special and possible.
 

1023

Provocateur, Rancanteur, Plaisanter, du Jour
(4) FP+ has altered the hourly capacity at POTC and HM because it causes queue backups that didn't exist when the attraction itself kept the line moving. For operational reasons that are difficult to quantify with theoretical numbers, FP tends to negatively affect high-capacity attractions.

The reason is partly that such rides weren't crowded all day long, and they only commanded maximum wait times for a certain period. Theoretically, FP+ wouldn't affect that flow pattern if nobody were there anyway; but by spreading guests out with bogus FastPasses for rides that don't need them (e.g. POTC), Disney has artificially creating a flow — and therefore a queue time — that wouldn't have otherwise existed. I'll go into more detail in point #5.

This isn't simply my opinion. At Disneyland in the early 2000s, Disney conceded that FP didn't work on omnimovers, and removed it from all such rides except Haunted Mansion Holiday. In Florida, HM had FP back in the 90s, but Disney pulled it out because it undermined the attraction's hourly output. I don't know the full reason FP affects high-capacity attractions differently than others, but it does, and Disney knows this.

(5) FP+ was added to many attractions in the MK to play a shell game that kept guests scattered throughout the park. At the time NextGen was approved, some execs were hoping they could avoid building new rides in the MK if FP+ simply spread people around the park. Luckily, wiser heads and better management prevailed, and Disney soon realized New FL was necessary.

I helped roll out several new programs at WDW, including NextGen. Ops did not want FP+ attached to POTC, HM, SSE, IASW, or other high-capacity attractions.

(6) For other rides that aren't crowd eaters, I like FastPass because it means I don't have to stand in long lines, and I've learned how to use FP+ to my advantage. I remember those insane wait times from the busy periods in the 90s. I have no desire to return to those days, especially now that WDW is moderately crowded nearly year-round.

I have, from the very beginning of testing FP+, tried to explain the "false" demand created by implementing the program on attractions that don't require them. The "balancing" created the issue where there was none. Removing FPs from those high capacity attractions would reduce queuing times but balloon "stand-by" times on the high demand and low capacity attractions.

This maneuver allowed them to create the artificial demand by spreading out guests so the didn't have to add to the attraction count. (Remember, net gain for NFL was one if I remember correctly.) This strategy is or will soon be biting them in the "tuchus". As guests entertainment dollars continue to shrink as a percentage of income, will someone pay over $100 to enter a park and experience 5 attractions, pay even more on pricey marginal food, and buy premium priced merch indefinitely? Will they look at other similar offerings that offer more experiences per day? Will relying on foreign travelers be a safe fallback as world markets continue to be volatile?

Anecdotally, visit to the Disneyland resort in Anaheim does not yet require the garbage that "NextGen" dumped in the WDW. With roughly the same number of attractions between 2 parks as WDW has in 4, it is possible to do everything in each park over 2 moderately busy days. Legacy Fastpass worked very well and still does. Legacy Fastpass is only on attractions that "require" it.

*1023*
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
I have, from the very beginning of testing FP+, tried to explain the "false" demand created by implementing the program on attractions that don't require them. The "balancing" created the issue where there was none. Removing FPs from those high capacity attractions would reduce queuing times but balloon "stand-by" times on the high demand and low capacity attractions.

This maneuver allowed them to create the artificial demand by spreading out guests so the didn't have to add to the attraction count. (Remember, net gain for NFL was one if I remember correctly.) This strategy is or will soon be biting them in the "tuchus". As guests entertainment dollars continue to shrink as a percentage of income, will someone pay over $100 to enter a park and experience 5 attractions, pay even more on pricey marginal food, and buy premium priced merch indefinitely? Will they look at other similar offerings that offer more experiences per day? Will relying on foreign travelers be a safe fallback as world markets continue to be volatile?

Anecdotally, visit to the Disneyland resort in Anaheim does not yet require the garbage that "NextGen" dumped in the WDW. With roughly the same number of attractions between 2 parks as WDW has in 4, it is possible to do everything in each park over 2 moderately busy days. Legacy Fastpass worked very well and still does. Legacy Fastpass is only on attractions that "require" it.

*1023*

DL will have a vastly different version of NextGen, and it may not include FP+ — at least, not like Florida's iteration.

A big chunk of DL's off-season day guests arrive around 4pm and go home at night. FP+ won't work well for those quick trips.
 

Quinnmac000

Well-Known Member
Very interesting quote...something that was echoed here before
"Making money is not necessarily the most important thing right now — it's to learn the industry. Because most people in China will tell you there isn't an industry the way there is in Hollywood," said Stanley Rosen, a political science professor at USC and an expert on China. "They want to learn everything they can about the business until they don't need you anymore."

Contracts are more fluid in China, and serious negotiations often happen only after deals are signed — and publicly announced. Deals aren't fixed but are continuously reevaluated, sometimes on a daily basis.

"In the U.S., if somebody signs a contract for three years, you expect it to last 1,095 days," Ganis said. "In China, it's essentially 1,095 one-day deals."


http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/envelope/cotown/la-et-ct-china-broken-deals-20150906-story.html
 

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