The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Spirited Non-Emmy Musings:

You know all that talk/chatter about Disney Drones? Don't think of WDW just yet ... Golden Oak aside (yeah, that's yet another message for my friends at TDO and Celebration Place!) ... The drone you've seen is supposed to make its debut in the new 'E-Ticket' SDL stage show in Fantasyland. It won't be flying over guests. It will be part of the show at present. Think about flying Tink and Dumbo during DL's MAGICal fireworks and you have some idea what I am speaking of.

Speaking of DL and pyro, so Micechat broke the news that Fantasy in the Sky will be making a return to DL on weekends starting in January, so they can replace infrastructure for the AMAZING (yes, I know things!) 60th pyro show that will debut in May. Seeing a show I used to love and haven't seen since last century is almost worth planning an off-season winter trip to Anaheim.

So, WDW is planning upcharge premium 'options' DURING hard ticket events. I'll say it here, if you pay, then I think you're an imbecile.

Speaking of which, what exactly was the issue with the Oogie show at Georgie K's Assorted Foamheads And Whatever Disney Could Throw In On The Cheap Hard Ticket Event at The Park That Will Soon Have a New Name? Seriously, what was offensive? In any sense. ... These folks should really be forced to watch ANY Bill and Ted show at the evil UNI resort up the I-4.

And speaking of that, with all those Emmy festivities I sorta missed out on the fact that my favorite Lifestyler @WDWFigment took another trip (I don't know how many this year because I lost the Epcot guide map that I was keeping score on at home!) BUT ... this one had him over at UNI. Way to go, Tom!!! Would love to hear your thoughts here (good, bad and ugly). Just don't let Dr. Blondie and Co know!

Did Rick Springfield pull out of concerts during Food and WIne Fest? That's a shame ... at least he has talent ... still.

Seriously, I was talking to a friend who works in the entertainment business for a company that is not Disney and we had been talking about Breaking Bad and he compared my 'fans' here to the blue crystal meth that Mr. White and Jesse cooked up in New Mexico ... ''they're addicted to you like Baby Blue,'' he said.

Some people don't recall when WDW used to not celebrate Halloween, just some generic fall decor. All those days of 9-6 and 9-7 October operating days ... yeah, ancient history.

At the risk of burying this, don't be surprised if when all the Hub 'improvements' are completed if you have a dedicated upcharge lounge area (I am hesitant to use the word concierge because then @TP2000 will pop in and correctly point out that WDW has no clue what a real concierge is and doesn't employ any!) in MK ... I know that one will be coming to EPCOT in the next year (likely sooner than later) now that restaurant expansion is temporarily off the table as Disney scrambles to keep Spice Road Table from going seasonal.

Please, @englanddg, I know you have your own 'cute' way of referring to DL. That's perfectly fine. I have a 'cute' way of referring to Bob Iger (no, not The Weatherman). But I don't want 3-4 pages of people explaining to you why you are wrong. If you want to call a pentagon a triangle, then that's fine. But not here, please.

And really, do we really want to argue over whether DL is a 'locals park' again just to get this thread to a million clicks? I don't. It's ignorant and it isn't true at all. ... You want a statement that is true? I can provide that so it is ignored.

And to my PML pals, look -- no social commentary (that I am almost always right about!) ... I'll try and fix that another time.

Finally, a very Happy Anniversary to one of my favorite and, dare I say most MAGICal, couples? No, @Lee I still don't know what she saw in you, but I am thrilled to death that she did! :)
You'll also note where:

1) I admitted more than once it was a slip up, I know the forum as a whole uses DL not DLC
2) I said I didn't want to discuss nor debate it, and I had no intent or desire to debate something that is years old with the same people I've had the same discussions with before (not disagreeing with them, for the record)
3) I pointed out it didn't detract from the topic at hand, though others cared to make it so rather than continue the discussion
4) I defended why I called it such, which also didn't lead to much discussion, merely bantering

I didn't make it an issue, others did. They obviously knew what I was referring to, and chose to focus on that instead of the discussion at hand. So, please address your admonishment equally.

Cheers!
 

Longhairbear

Well-Known Member
Not sure this is the correct forum, but it's about upcharges, and pricing at Disney resorts.
We are planning, along with a few Disney, and non Disney fan friends for dinners etc. at DLR.
We're using DVC points to stay on property, friends are staying at local hotels nearby. As all of us are more attuned to dine upscale for certain meals, but I was taken aback by some pricing of menu items at the better restaurants at DLR.
At the Blue Bayou in New Orleans Square, where you can watch the boats for Pirates sail by, the Monte Cristo sandwich is $25.49!
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
Not sure this is the correct forum, but it's about upcharges, and pricing at Disney resorts.
We are planning, along with a few Disney, and non Disney fan friends for dinners etc. at DLR.
We're using DVC points to stay on property, friends are staying at local hotels nearby. As all of us are more attuned to dine upscale for certain meals, but I was taken aback by some pricing of menu items at the better restaurants at DLR.
At the Blue Bayou in New Orleans Square, where you can watch the boats for Pirates sail by, the Monte Cristo sandwich is $25.49!
To my understanding, this is their signature food item. Supply and demand I guess. It is pretty darn expensive for a sandwich but I intend to get one if I get to DL in January like we are hoping to.
 

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
Yes but the numbers are rather deceptive.

Former CEO Michael Eisner's big ticket price increase was in his first 4 years. From 1984 to 1988, a 4-day ticket went from $52 to $96, a whopping 85%!

At the time, WDW fans were furious but the overall opinion of business insiders (;)) were that WDW tickets were grossly underpriced.

When it comes to WDW theme park ticket prices, there's "before 1985" and "after 1988". :D

Eisner also gave us today's WDW. With the exception of the Magic Kingdom, Epcot, the Contemporary, and the Polynesian, nearly everything else at today's WDW was initiated under Eisner.

Current CEO Bob Iger has continued the WDW ticket price trend, even cranking it up a notch from 2011 to 2013. However, he's also pushed for higher prices on hotels, food, and merchandise.

10 years ago, an adult meal at Cinderella's Royal Table was about $15. Today it's $60. :jawdrop:

In 2005 (Eisner's last year), the Disney Dining Plan (DDP) cost $35/night and included one Table Service (TS) meal consisting of appetizer, non-alcoholic beverage, main course, dessert, and 18% gratuity, one Quick Service (QS) meal consisting of non-alcoholic beverage, main course, and dessert, and one snack.

This year, the DDP costs over $60 while the TS appetizer & 18% gratuity are no longer included.

Iger has been an unfriendly CEO to WDW consumers.

Yes, Disney is a business and can charge whatever it likes. However, the signs are there that the public is starting to rebel. Frankly, if not for the recently discovered South American market and Universal attracting a new set of consumers to Orlando, today's WDW financial numbers would look downright ugly.

With fewer investments in WDW compared to his predecessors, Iger's policies are driving away his core customer base.

No previous Disney CEO has taken WDW's "guests" for granted more than Iger.
It will be interesting to see how the recent economic situations in Argentina and Brazil will impact the parks.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
It will be interesting to see how the recent economic situations in Argentina and Brazil will impact the parks.
Traditionally, WDW experienced 5-10% annual bumps in attendance during periods of domestic economic growth. During these times, revenue growth has been well into the double-digits.

This has not happened in the last couple of years, even though other indicators (e.g. Orlando area hotel occupancy rates, DVC resale prices) suggest that a surge in Orlando tourism is in progress. Instead, WDW attendance is up no more than 2% per year. Revenue looks to be up only around 7-8% this year. Potentially, this is a bad sign for corporate Disney.

As with all things, there certainly is more than one cause. WDW's higher prices coupled with relatively few new offerings have dampened business. However, like you, I also suspect events in South America are having an effect.

In my opinion, WDW desperately needs new properties (e.g. Pandora, Star Wars Land) in order to attract repeat visitors from North America and Europe.

That or they could bring back the "buy 4, get 3 free" promotion that the corporate Disney brain trust came up with 5 years ago that had a horrible impact on gross margin. :rolleyes:

If corporate Disney wants to see sustainable growth at WDW, they need to invest in it rather than play around with gimmicks and price hikes.
 
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the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
Traditionally, WDW experienced 5-10% annual bumps in attendance during periods of domestic economic growth. During these times, revenue growth has been well into the double-digits.

This has not happened in the last couple of years, even though other indicators (e.g. Orlando area hotel occupancy rates, DVC resale prices) suggest that a surge in Orlando tourism is in progress. Instead, WDW attendance is up no more than 2% per year. Revenue looks to be up only around 7-8% this year. Potentially, this is a bad sign for corporate Disney.

As with all things, there certainly is more than once cause. WDW's higher prices coupled with relatively few new offerings have dampened business. However, like you, I also suspect events in South America are having an effect.

In my opinion, WDW desperately needs new properties (e.g. Pandora, Star Wars Land) in order to attract repeat visitors from North America and Europe.

That or they could bring back the "buy 4, get 3 free" promotion that the corporate Disney brain trust came up with 5 years ago that had a horrible impact on gross margin. :rolleyes:

If corporate Disney wants to see sustainable growth at WDW, they need to invest in it rather than play around with gimmicks.
Or price its hotels closer to market value for each category.

A question regarding DVC: How could Disney, if it wanted to, curtail the DVC industrial complex and move it back towards destination resorts like Aulani as originally intentioned?
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Incoming love letter to Harry Potter

So Universal thoughts... @WDW1974 (since the park hours for whatever reason are very early in my opinion and I have nothing better to do in Florida).

I've been growing more and more cynical about all their recent additions. I think it is in part due to the hyperbole and fanboism that is really running rampant, I don't trust people who think one company is the second coming of Christ and the other the pure scum. Despite following the project very, very heavily for the last two something years (side note - I am a Potter fan) I avoided most spoilers post opening and began stewing. The last time I was at Universal - completely unplanned - was Jan 2nd 2012 for the final run of Jaws.

But despite my growing angst, Diagon Alley totally met and exceeded my expectations. It's an E-ticket land, that's really hard to grasp since it doesn't technically exist at WDW. I'm a bit of a run from ride to ride type person, but I spent hours simply exploring, checking out all the endless junk I desperately wanted to waste loads of money on, taking pictures, eating etc. I could have left without actually going on Gringotts or Hogwarts Express and been totally satisfied and impressed. That's whats really hard to quantify unless you go experience it for yourself. It really is a walk through attraction in a sense (absolutely stuffed with animatronics, kinetics and surprises everywhere). Stick yourself on an ECV if you need some sort of a vehicle to justify it as the attraction that it is.

Radiator Springs and Hogsmead are the precursors in a sense. TDS's Mysterious island is in some ways on par but lacks the Merch and the sheer kinetics. Heck I even like New Fantasyland, but when you strip away the rides it's basically a D-ticket land. Very beautiful like Mysterious Island, but doesn't hold the same amount of substance. Someone else mentioned it I think too, but the entire alley feels 5 degrees cooler than the rest of the park, it's just so pleasant. @WDWFigment gave a good analogy of plopping Ratatouille in WDS, when I finally emerged out from Wyndham again I was like "oh right, I guess there is this other stuff".

Alright so I clearly loved that part, another thing that really impressed me more than I thought it would was the Hogwarts Express. I did not realize how big the station was inside (before you even get to the platform). It's a D-ticket mind you (well I'd qualify it as a D+), but that's the "revolutionary" idea in this whole thing. It's magical escapism and highly impressive that you actually go somewhere else (well somewhere worthwhile, not Rafiki's Planet watch...). Honestly, if you cut out the portions of the Wizarding World and plopped them in the middle of nowhere, for me that would actually be a superior park than DHS as a whole.

The last bit is Gringott's. Yes the thing was closed for the first half of the day and I wasted tons of time for my first ride through. I was reaching the point where I couldn't believe it was still in such poor working condition...

But, I'm a lucky person...

After all that it ran smooth as silk, my second wait was under 20 minutes, my third time ride took me less than 10 minutes. I could have gotten on again in likely less than 5 at 8:20 (when it was still open) if I really wanted to, but I hardly go on anything more than twice so they are always somewhat fresh experiences. It seems despite the fact it was non-functional for half the day, the ride is finally starting to handle the crowds when it does decide to work!

Gringott's is very good. Yes it's an E-ticket, yes it's evolutionary (Spiderman meets Mummy meets Harry Potter). It however does not feel revolutionary.

I think because it feels like we've been there before though. Not in a bad way, but as Transformers is to Spiderman, Gringott's is to Forbidden Journey. It's very fun, I enjoyed it. If it was a different IP or it was done by Disney I think we'd all be saying it is more of a revolution than evolution. That speaks to the previous success though of Universal and Harry Potter. It's a more cohesive story than Forbidden Journey, but for now Journey has the leg up on the crazy vehicle tech and a better mix of sets and screens.

It's not all screens all the time at Universal though. I'm sure someone with time could count for me, but I have a sneaking suspicion the Diagon Alley expansion uses more AA's than New Fantasyland... That's why for even the AA purists out there, you can sort of admit the land is actually an attraction in itself.


I'll have more thoughts on the rest of Universal after another day when half my energy isn't devoted to fawning over Potter and convincing myself why I really don't need an interactive wand...

They don't have a Gilderoy Lockhart replica wand though (my last name), such a travesty. Who the heck wants a Cho Chang replica...
Great write up. Regarding the animatronic count, I would guess that this may be true if you don't count Little Mermaid, and only the indoor portion of Mine Train. Aside from the Goblins what else is there for animatronics in Diagon Alley? Is Creature truly an animatronic? The moving stuff in Ollivander's, are those true animatronics?
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
Great write up. Regarding the animatronic count, I would guess that this may be true if you don't count Little Mermaid, and only the indoor portion of Mine Train. Aside from the Goblins what else is there for animatronics in Diagon Alley? Is Creature truly an animatronic? The moving stuff in Ollivander's, are those true animatronics?

Simple animatronics. I don't want to spoil it for others, but there are hundreds of things that move, make sounds, talk etc in the alley itself (every window display has movement). Like NFL there are a couple of really elaborate ones (both of the talking tellers), but in terms of kinetics the alley is an experience of its own.

Kreacher is like 1% compared to the inside.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Or price its hotels closer to market value for each category.

A question regarding DVC: How could Disney, if it wanted to, curtail the DVC industrial complex and move it back towards destination resorts like Aulani as originally intentioned?
My 2 cents on that question: first, they don't want to. They have had less than stellar success with the non-WDW DVC resorts. Several potential projects have been canceled over the years since the economics didn't work. Building DVC in a beach town or near historic landmarks means Disney has to compete head to head with other non-Disney timeshare operators and hotels. They lose the huge advantage of being the only timeshare available on WDW property. It's a big reason people pay the high price per point to buy in.

If you build in a beach town everyone has equal access to the beach and the playing ground is leveled so you either need to provide stellar service and amenities (like they do at HH) or compete on price. They can't compete on price since the points are exchangeable and it would also kill the mega profits from sales. Hawaii in general is very expensive for real estate so it's a little easier to charge DVC level prices than it would be in a mainland beach town, but even Aulani is not selling like they would have hoped. The one way they could do it would be to build true old-school Disney style resorts which are superior to the competition and really worth the extra money. I think it's just easier/cheaper to build at WDW now since they have no problem selling the things.
 

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
Traditionally, WDW experienced 5-10% annual bumps in attendance during periods of domestic economic growth. During these times, revenue growth has been well into the double-digits.

This has not happened in the last couple of years, even though other indicators (e.g. Orlando area hotel occupancy rates, DVC resale prices) suggest that a surge in Orlando tourism is in progress. Instead, WDW attendance is up no more than 2% per year. Revenue looks to be up only around 7-8% this year. Potentially, this is a bad sign for corporate Disney.

As with all things, there certainly is more than once cause. WDW's higher prices coupled with relatively few new offerings have dampened business. However, like you, I also suspect events in South America are having an effect.

In my opinion, WDW desperately needs new properties (e.g. Pandora, Star Wars Land) in order to attract repeat visitors from North America and Europe.

That or they could bring back the "buy 4, get 3 free" promotion that the corporate Disney brain trust came up with 5 years ago that had a horrible impact on gross margin. :rolleyes:

If corporate Disney wants to see sustainable growth at WDW, they need to invest in it rather than play around with gimmicks.
Albeit anecdotal, it appeared during my visit last week that the British/South American ratio was more British than the same time in years past.
 

EPCOTCenterLover

Well-Known Member
Incoming love letter to Harry Potter

So Universal thoughts... @WDW1974 (since the park hours for whatever reason are very early in my opinion and I have nothing better to do in Florida).

I've been growing more and more cynical about all their recent additions. I think it is in part due to the hyperbole and fanboism that is really running rampant, I don't trust people who think one company is the second coming of Christ and the other the pure scum. Despite following the project very, very heavily for the last two something years (side note - I am a Potter fan) I avoided most spoilers post opening and began stewing. The last time I was at Universal - completely unplanned - was Jan 2nd 2012 for the final run of Jaws.

But despite my growing angst, Diagon Alley totally met and exceeded my expectations. It's an E-ticket land, that's really hard to grasp since it doesn't technically exist at WDW. I'm a bit of a run from ride to ride type person, but I spent hours simply exploring, checking out all the endless junk I desperately wanted to waste loads of money on, taking pictures, eating etc. I could have left without actually going on Gringotts or Hogwarts Express and been totally satisfied and impressed. That's whats really hard to quantify unless you go experience it for yourself. It really is a walk through attraction in a sense (absolutely stuffed with animatronics, kinetics and surprises everywhere). Stick yourself on an ECV if you need some sort of a vehicle to justify it as the attraction that it is.

Radiator Springs and Hogsmead are the precursors in a sense. TDS's Mysterious island is in some ways on par but lacks the Merch and the sheer kinetics. Heck I even like New Fantasyland, but when you strip away the rides it's basically a D-ticket land. Very beautiful like Mysterious Island, but doesn't hold the same amount of substance. Someone else mentioned it I think too, but the entire alley feels 5 degrees cooler than the rest of the park, it's just so pleasant. @WDWFigment gave a good analogy of plopping Ratatouille in WDS, when I finally emerged out from Wyndham again I was like "oh right, I guess there is this other stuff".

Alright so I clearly loved that part, another thing that really impressed me more than I thought it would was the Hogwarts Express. I did not realize how big the station was inside (before you even get to the platform). It's a D-ticket mind you (well I'd qualify it as a D+), but that's the "revolutionary" idea in this whole thing. It's magical escapism and highly impressive that you actually go somewhere else (well somewhere worthwhile, not Rafiki's Planet watch...). Honestly, if you cut out the portions of the Wizarding World and plopped them in the middle of nowhere, for me that would actually be a superior park than DHS as a whole.

The last bit is Gringott's. Yes the thing was closed for the first half of the day and I wasted tons of time for my first ride through. I was reaching the point where I couldn't believe it was still in such poor working condition...

But, I'm a lucky person...

After all that it ran smooth as silk, my second wait was under 20 minutes, my third time ride took me less than 10 minutes. I could have gotten on again in likely less than 5 at 8:20 (when it was still open) if I really wanted to, but I hardly go on anything more than twice so they are always somewhat fresh experiences. It seems despite the fact it was non-functional for half the day, the ride is finally starting to handle the crowds when it does decide to work!

Gringott's is very good. Yes it's an E-ticket, yes it's evolutionary (Spiderman meets Mummy meets Harry Potter). It however does not feel revolutionary.

I think because it feels like we've been there before though. Not in a bad way, but as Transformers is to Spiderman, Gringott's is to Forbidden Journey. It's very fun, I enjoyed it. If it was a different IP or it was done by Disney I think we'd all be saying it is more of a revolution than evolution. That speaks to the previous success though of Universal and Harry Potter. It's a more cohesive story than Forbidden Journey, but for now Journey has the leg up on the crazy vehicle tech and a better mix of sets and screens.

It's not all screens all the time at Universal though. I'm sure someone with time could count for me, but I have a sneaking suspicion the Diagon Alley expansion uses more AA's than New Fantasyland... That's why for even the AA purists out there, you can sort of admit the land is actually an attraction in itself.


I'll have more thoughts on the rest of Universal after another day when half my energy isn't devoted to fawning over Potter and convincing myself why I really don't need an interactive wand...

They don't have a Gilderoy Lockhart replica wand though (my last name), such a travesty. Who the heck wants a Cho Chang replica...
Haven't seen it yet, but I have seen Cars Land, and it is incredible. Looks like the entire land is an E Ticket. If Gringotts is half as good as the land its in, then it is a stunning success.
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
My 2 cents on that question: first, they don't want to. They have had less than stellar success with the non-WDW DVC resorts. Several potential projects have been canceled over the years since the economics didn't work. Building DVC in a beach town or near historic landmarks means Disney has to compete head to head with other non-Disney timeshare operators and hotels. They lose the huge advantage of being the only timeshare available on WDW property. It's a big reason people pay the high price per point to buy in.

If you build in a beach town everyone has equal access to the beach and the playing ground is leveled so you either need to provide stellar service and amenities (like they do at HH) or compete on price. They can't compete on price since the points are exchangeable and it would also kill the mega profits from sales. Hawaii in general is very expensive for real estate so it's a little easier to charge DVC level prices than it would be in a mainland beach town, but even Aulani is not selling like they would have hoped. The one way they could do it would be to build true old-school Disney style resorts which are superior to the competition and really worth the extra money. I think it's just easier/cheaper to build at WDW now since they have no problem selling the things.
What I find interesting with DVC is that while it's been Walmarted to get access to quick money now, the product appears to be sold quite differently outside of North America. I'm not sure how many folks know this or if it had been discussed on a SPIRITED thread, but Aulani was designed to serve Japanese guests as well if not more than Americans. As a matter of fact, and @WDWFigment may have seen this on a recent trip, there is a DVC showcase in Ikspirai dedicated solely to selling Aulani. There are likely lots of non-Americans that would be interested in DVC, but not necessarily WDW DVC. If the folks who run DVC decided DVCing WDW was more important than having DVC destination resorts in countries like China or locations like Hawaii that attract lots of foreign visitors, the DVC problem is much worse than we thought.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Just saw a few people on twitter say that Tony Baxter is in Diagon Alley...

BwNv7nqIMAAKAaW.jpg


https://twitter.com/Otto_Correct/status/505370660143915010/photo/1

Do we really think that is Tony?
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
What I find interesting with DVC is that while it's been Walmarted to get access to quick money now, the product appears to be sold quite differently outside of North America. I'm not sure how many folks know this or if it had been discussed on a SPIRITED thread, but Aulani was designed to serve Japanese guests as well if not more than Americans. As a matter of fact, and @WDWFigment may have seen this on a recent trip, there is a DVC showcase in Ikspirai dedicated solely to selling Aulani. There are likely lots of non-Americans that would be interested in DVC, but not necessarily WDW DVC. If the folks who run DVC decided DVCing WDW was more important than having DVC destination resorts in countries like China or locations like Hawaii that attract lots of foreign visitors, the DVC problem is much worse than we thought.
Japan is a key component to Hawaii real estate and tourism in general. Lots of Japanese tourists visit Hawaii and they do buy timeshares there too. Unfortunately for Aulani the whole Fukushima thing happened right around when they started selling points. The Japanese economy sputtered and tourism in Hawaii in general dropped too. Things have since recovered (for the most part) but sales at Aulani are still lagging. I wonder if maybe Japanese tourists have an opinion of Disney based on TDL as a theme park company, but don't necessarily look at it as a tropical resort. Similar to how some Americans probably view it. People without kids or with no real interest in the theme parks are probably a little turned off by the Disney name and the idea of seeing Mickey Mouse walking around their island resort.

As far as building foreign resorts in places like China I don't really know if that is a viable market. There are cultural differences and political risks. I don't know enough about the Chinese tourism market to say whether timeshares there work or not. In the other Spirited thread about DVC there was a discussion around building DVC at the foreign parks. I don't see TWDC having any interest in encouraging American tourists to visit the foreign parks. They are only partial owners so they would rather have Americans visit the domestic parks to maximize profits. If they were to build DVC in Paris or Japan or China it would be to attract locals from those areas as owners not to encourage American tourists to visit. I'm not familiar enough with those markets to know if timeshares exist or are profitable there.
 

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