Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Then I can retire!!!So how long till we see a "Tony Baxter's take on the current state of the parks" thread?
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Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)
- Thread starter wdwmagic
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the.dreamfinder
Well-Known Member
I don't think that's a good idea in the sense that every single kid that wants to be an Imagineer will go there and they'll all end up thinking the same way. "Imagineering" isn't something that can be taught at a university/college for a degree. If I ran WDI I'd want a team with a diversity of backgrounds that each brought a high level of skill and passion. If you wanted to get something close to what you suggest, I recommend going to a really good liberal arts college and try to take a diverse array of courses but be set on something specific as well.
Rasvar
Well-Known Member
The one part about Tony's letter that had me raising an eyebrow was on the new technologies. I just hope the new generation that this brave new world is being ceded to understands that the technology is the tool to tell the story but not the story. When I see a new attraction like the "Legend of Captain Jack Sparrow" for the first time, there is a lot of gee whiz that was neat stuff. However, I can't see myself ever standing in line for it again. It was cool and had nice tricks but it made no sense at all.
This is where strong mentoring would really benefit the new generation. I think they are getting lost in their tech and missing a chance to create some really enduring and timeless attractions. It isn't the technology that made Haunted Mansion and PotC the classics, it was what was done with the technology to allow it to be timeless. This comes from someone who has always loved to go with new technologies.
This is where strong mentoring would really benefit the new generation. I think they are getting lost in their tech and missing a chance to create some really enduring and timeless attractions. It isn't the technology that made Haunted Mansion and PotC the classics, it was what was done with the technology to allow it to be timeless. This comes from someone who has always loved to go with new technologies.
CountryBearFan
Active Member
You, sir, are completely wrong!
The Muppets are doing VERY well under Disney's ownership. And LOTS of good things have come out of it, such as the YouTube viral videos.
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
You, sir, are completely wrong!
The Muppets are doing VERY well under Disney's ownership. And LOTS of good things have come out of it, such as the YouTube viral videos.
Just stop, really.
bubbles1812
Well-Known Member
Yes... because if there is one measuring stick for how well a property is doing, it's the measure of the success of a couple of viral videos...You, sir, are completely wrong!
The Muppets are doing VERY well under Disney's ownership. And LOTS of good things have come out of it, such as the YouTube viral videos.
Not saying I don't like the videos. I actually like the Muppets a lot and I'm glad Disney did a movie with them. But using viral videos as your only example and not specifying what other "good things" have come out of the Muppet-Disney relationship doesn't make for a strong argument at all. And your continued use of the angry faces basically just makes you seem like a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum. So no one takes you seriously anyways.
Pixiedustmaker
Well-Known Member
I really enjoyed the last Muppet movie, and they just started filming on the second one. So, as far as the movies go, Disney is investing in this property. Personally, I think that the last Muppet movie was the best one they ever made, some of the songs even won an Oscar.
http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID10053120.asp
Pixiedustmaker
Well-Known Member
I would have to say that all of the viral videos are better than this video clip, at least from an adult fan's perspective. I really enjoy watching the new viral stuff, can't wait to see what they do for Muppets . . . Again!
Omnispace
Well-Known Member
I don't want to turn Eddie's thread into a Muppet discussion. The point was that they are an acquisition by Disney and they haven't really been given the proper attention. I'm glad that the latest movie did well though it was released 7 years after Disney purchased the franchise in 2004. 7 years is a long time to be languishing and even longer if you consider the previous theatrical release to be 1999. If Pixar had been on hiatus for 7 years people would wonder what was going on. I'm glad Muppets have managed to pop up here and there over the years because they have been a very creative and popular franchise. I've been enjoying them since their Sesame Street days.
Omnispace
Well-Known Member
I know it's all a matter of personal taste and I have no problem with people enjoying something that makes them laugh. I simply have a difficult time with the Muppets doing Bohemian Rhapsody. Certainly there's a lot of creativity involved and it's all in good fun, but it's really just parody. To me there's a much greater creative challenge giving personality to a dancing tube with fuzzy feet and googly eyes. It requires a huge understanding of "body" language, fundamental human gestures and emotions, and conveying that all to an audience that has never seen anything like these dancing tubes before. I think it's those elemental aspects of showmanship that are what Walt Disney grasped so well and are some of the intangible qualities that Tony eludes to in his letter.
Pixiedustmaker
Well-Known Member
I'm always sadden that Disney didn't do a Muppets version of the Great Movie ride, or the Muppets plaza idea. I really like Muppet 3-D, but of course would like to see a different show, and even more, a muppets dark ride. Seems like some of those new flexible foam animatronics would work great in such a ride.
Pixiedustmaker
Well-Known Member
I like watching the Muppets do classic songs as they put a muppet spin on it, and I have to say I watched the Bohemian Rhapsody one several times, Animal is just too funny!
It must come down to taste because the dancing tube I found to be just plain boring, and one of things you watch sort of wondering, "what is the point of this." Creative, but really just a guy messing around with a tube puppet thing with music.
Happily, the Muppet Movie did have original songs, some of which were hillarious, IMHO.
Magenta Panther
Well-Known Member
"Stifled under the load"???? In some people's opinions. The way I see it, Disney paid too much for a franchise that hadn't turned a profit in years, and despite investing considerable capital into it and even financing a movie, that property hasn't earned Disney much more than Muppet fan adoration - and constant criticism from that very same source. The truth is, there simply isn't enough of an audience for that bunch of characters anymore. I suspect that's why Jim Henson's children, despite being owners of the characters, actually sold them to other companies. If you want to complain to anyone about the Muppets' faded legacy, complain to them. At least Disney bought them and has tried to do something with them. The idea that Disney should keep pumping money into them despite continual low returns is absurd and delusional. The Marvel acquisition, as much as I abhor it, made more sense, as did the Lucasfilm purchase. Those properties were still making money and have an appeal that, unlike the Muppets, is based on the hero/villain dynamic that defies time and on futuristic imagery that embraces new technologies and cinematic innovation. Disney still doesn't need them though - OR the Muppets - not when Pixar can create new superheroes like The Incredibles and WDAS can concoct new properties with stronger retro appeal like Wreck-It-Ralph.
Sorry to go on like this, but I do get tired of Muppet fans blaming Disney for the fact that sometimes, the dead can't be revived...not even with pixie dust.
Figments Friend
Well-Known Member
Completely agree.
After reading Tony*s letter the thought crossed my mind that it seemed he was not getting enough fullfillment out of mentoring others. What i mean is, he is not being given enough opportunities to be able to mentor others. Perhaps that too was being somewhat surpressed by the currant regiment?
Was Tony*s desire to interact more with the younger recruits purposely stifled ?
Tony is a classically-trained 2nd Gen Imagineer, and the newbies coming into the fold could benefit greatly from having him as a mentor. I sometimes wonder however if the new regimate of uppers within the company may have purposely downplayed and willfully supressed the mentoring aspects at WDI to keep old-Walt-school quality-minded Imagineers like Tony from having a influence on the younger flock. In their twisted mindset they could see his influence on them as being a negative, which is absolutely outrageous. If the environment over the last few years has indeed become somewhat toxic to true creative endeavors there, and it is corporate greed raising it*s ugly head, i can see some uppers wanting to keep such truly innovative people away from the newbies.
It sounds absurd...and demeaning in so many ways, but i can see those evil beings thinking this would be a good thing as then they can manipulate and direct said newbies however they wish.
Folks of Tony*s esteem could be looked upon by such entities as being a *bad influence* on the sheep they hope to mold into their own money-only-matters mind set. Argh...it disgusts me to think about this !
It is indeed truly sad if that was the case...and this would explain the reaching out tone of Tony*s note that i came away with. It would also explain as to why he is moving on...or least *getting out of Dodge*...to breath the free air again.
Pixiedustmaker
Well-Known Member
While we all revere Tony Baxter, the head hanchos at WDI/Disney are on a first name basis with him and many others. The folks above Tony in hierarchy were hired for a specific reason, and it wasn't specifically to hold the great imagineers in homage, but they probably feel they have to make a name for themselves and that they hold their own style, and sensibilities above that of the old crowd.
Maybe some of the younger WDI bosses rode Splash and Big Thunder as college students/kids and just look at them as part of the landscape, versus Tony Baxter's style. The WDI memo sort of shortchanges Tony, IMHO, as just a hired hand who worked on a lot of projects, versus paying homage to his vision.
All organizations have big egos, and if an imagineer/group of imagineers does a successful project without Tony Baxter, then I could see them concluding that their way is just as right as his and ignoring him. Obviously, I think it is best to utilize all of the talent they have, especially talent like Tony's.
Certainly, WDI bosses have big egos, and they aren't going to tell new recruits, "Tony Baxter is a jewel, I want you to learn from him, even though I've got decades of experience, Tony really understands what Walt liked, which is also what the general public still likes."
There is more than one way to skin a cat, given that Carsland got it right. But there is a lack of leadership/supervisory oversight as WDI is, *in my very humble opinion*, is building stuff that will need to be gutted and re-imagined 5-10 years from now, versus the "keeper" attractions that Tony referenced which are great on the 20th ride through, such as Pirates, HM and Peter Pan. For example:
1. DCA's Mermaid. I'm so bored when I went on what must have been my 10th time on this attraction, it felt like painful homework: that I have to take our niece on Mermaid when we go to DCA because she must like it even though she really doesn't and has never said it was her favorite ride at DLR. Two days ago asked my 5 year old niece (who loves Ariel/Melody/Ursula) if she liked the ride . . . finally got out of her that Ursula is "weird" and not right somehow. Told my brother about Tony Baxter's plan for Mermaid, and he lit up when I told him about the gigantic Ursula in the ocean scene and he said, "That's what I was waiting for, something like that." I seriously doubt Mermaid will be in DCA in 20 years in the condition it is in. It needs to be retooled into a Tony Baxter experience, versus using screens to just cover the main plot points in the film.
They need to do something "astonishing" like have the "Under the Sea" scene, but have it so it is more detailed, and with ride vehicles which zip around the scene, may suspended ride vehicles that can move in the vertical axis randomly while they move horizontally . . . anything so the ride isn't such a chore.
2. Monsters Inc. They re-used the Superstar Limo ride system, and the ride goes so slow the magic is lost . . . plus it ain't that magical given Monstropolis is pretty much like New York. It is easy to see how the swinging door scene is made to look bigger with mirrors . . . not very magical. My favorite part of the ride is the queue with the "Blort" and other stuff in the fake vending machine. A walk-on I rarely ride twice even if I don't have to wait.
3. Toy Story Midway Mania. Kinda fun playing a video game, but I wish we had more Toy Story dark scenes so I could feel I'm in their world. Have been on this ride maybe eight times, not a mus-do, and I doubt I'll really super want to do it after the 20th time, and if I did it would be for the little bit of dark ride and Andy's room at the exit.
I'm sure I'll be happy riding Mater's and RSR on the 50th ride through and beyond as there is so much story with RSR. You've got the scenic drive section past the waterfall and when you narrowly miss the truck it scares you because you feel like you took your eyes off the road, brilliant. Then you've got warm hearted Mater, Radiator Springs with the cars you're imaging, and the thrill part, which sort of makes this ride two good rides combined into one great ride. Mater's is a keeper because everybody loves Mater and the ride provides some surprisingly thrills, plus I really feel I'm in the world of Cars and experiencing something in Mater's junkyard versus just Mater's likeness glued on a ride. If they added an animatronic Mater DJ that would be great, though it might distract people exiting the ride vehicles.
BVS, nice eye candy, but the Pig Cafe has horrible acoustics and I hate to spend time there, and there ain't anything to ride except for the Red Car Trolley which is used for shows. I could see Tony Baxter emphasizing that this "land" (themed corridor, IMHO, not a bonafide land), needs a couple attractions, preferably one being an E-Ticket such as a dark ride into the early days of animation starring Mickey/Oswald. Guests want to dream about/romanticize the early days of animation, why not let them do it with a great ride?
I don't know what personality conflicts may have occurred between Tony and other longtime imagineers . . . but Tony was basically right, yes? It just goes to figure that a guy who has a proven track record for success, and who analyzes what the Disney difference is, would much more than not be "right" concerning the overall design of attractions.
Pixiedustmaker
Well-Known Member
I think that if Tony Baxter writes a book, (and it looks like it could be great given how well-written, entertaining, educational, and inspiring his final memo was), it could easily become one of the most important books on Imagineering and Disney ever written . . . and it could impact the culture at WDI/Burbank if the top brass read it.
WDI/Disney should realize that the fan community, or at least a portion of it, is demoralized by the handling of Tony Baxter's "retirement" and unhappy fans are unhappy guests who feel less enthusiastic about the parks.
I think a lot of people want an explanation as to why Tony Baxter wasn't put on more projects, why BVS doesn't have any rides, why Paradise Pier isn't demolished (or at leas the cheap rides replaced), why Grizzly River Run is still just a generic Universal Berryland ride, why Hollywoodland still exists as it is, why Monsters Inc. isn't totally revamped . . . It seems that the combined lesson of DCA 1.0's abject failure/Carsland's brilliant success should vindicate Tony Baxter, and lead to some serious changes.
I think we should consider writing letters to WDI/Disney to say we liked Tony's work and think he should have a window on Main Street (Disneyland, he has one in Paris Disneyland). If we remain silent then it is sort of rubber stamping half-way-there attractions that don't fit in their lands.
WDI/Disney should realize that the fan community, or at least a portion of it, is demoralized by the handling of Tony Baxter's "retirement" and unhappy fans are unhappy guests who feel less enthusiastic about the parks.
I think a lot of people want an explanation as to why Tony Baxter wasn't put on more projects, why BVS doesn't have any rides, why Paradise Pier isn't demolished (or at leas the cheap rides replaced), why Grizzly River Run is still just a generic Universal Berryland ride, why Hollywoodland still exists as it is, why Monsters Inc. isn't totally revamped . . . It seems that the combined lesson of DCA 1.0's abject failure/Carsland's brilliant success should vindicate Tony Baxter, and lead to some serious changes.
I think we should consider writing letters to WDI/Disney to say we liked Tony's work and think he should have a window on Main Street (Disneyland, he has one in Paris Disneyland). If we remain silent then it is sort of rubber stamping half-way-there attractions that don't fit in their lands.
Dude, that video is hilarious. I have to agree.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
When Disney bought the Muppets, a friend of mine who was the ex Marketing VP at ABC and I approached the newly formed division to see if we could get hired creatively to develop product for the Muppets. We failed to gin up any interest. My impression was that they were really trying to reinvent the brand, yet did not dedicate much capital to the effort initially. Most of the plan was synergistic with Disney franchises and getting them guest spots on shows. There were some of the new movies on a slate, but that was it.
Pixiedustmaker
Well-Known Member
There was a little bit about Tony on Miceage, http://micechat.com/21072-fantasy-faire-2/, it said that he was involved with the Princess Fantasy Faire being built, I kinda wondered if he was involved on this project given his work on Fantasyland and how good it looks. Can't wait to see if they put in an animatronic Figaro/bird in a window like some of the designs hint at. Fantasy faire looks pretty detailed/lavish, maybe even more so that Belle' village.
I guess the walkway to El Zocalo will still be functional?
I guess the walkway to El Zocalo will still be functional?
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Tony was involved in that and given this mentoring discussion, the designer assigned to the Fantasy Faire is a talented protege of his, Michel den Dulk. Michel was brought into WDI by Tony from Efteling Park in Europe and was their star designer. Tony has him in an office next to his and they work together. I have seen Dulk's work, (especially his drawing skills) and it's outstanding. Michel gave me a recent tour of his project and it's looking really great. So I know that Tony's mentoring is real and has results that may leave Disneyland in some very good hands.
When I first met Tony we had dinner together and he spoke of "Star polishers". He saw himself as a star "polisher", someone who helps those with talent develop as he was by Claude and others. Forgot about that till this discussion.
When I first met Tony we had dinner together and he spoke of "Star polishers". He saw himself as a star "polisher", someone who helps those with talent develop as he was by Claude and others. Forgot about that till this discussion.