Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
While we all revere Tony Baxter, the head hanchos at WDI/Disney are on a first name basis with him and many others. The folks above Tony in hierarchy were hired for a specific reason, and it wasn't specifically to hold the great imagineers in homage, but they probably feel they have to make a name for themselves and that they hold their own style, and sensibilities above that of the old crowd.

Maybe some of the younger WDI bosses rode Splash and Big Thunder as college students/kids and just look at them as part of the landscape, versus Tony Baxter's style. The WDI memo sort of shortchanges Tony, IMHO, as just a hired hand who worked on a lot of projects, versus paying homage to his vision.

All organizations have big egos, and if an imagineer/group of imagineers does a successful project without Tony Baxter, then I could see them concluding that their way is just as right as his and ignoring him. Obviously, I think it is best to utilize all of the talent they have, especially talent like Tony's.



Certainly, WDI bosses have big egos, and they aren't going to tell new recruits, "Tony Baxter is a jewel, I want you to learn from him, even though I've got decades of experience, Tony really understands what Walt liked, which is also what the general public still likes."

There is more than one way to skin a cat, given that Carsland got it right. But there is a lack of leadership/supervisory oversight as WDI is, *in my very humble opinion*, is building stuff that will need to be gutted and re-imagined 5-10 years from now, versus the "keeper" attractions that Tony referenced which are great on the 20th ride through, such as Pirates, HM and Peter Pan. For example:

1. DCA's Mermaid. I'm so bored when I went on what must have been my 10th time on this attraction, it felt like painful homework: that I have to take our niece on Mermaid when we go to DCA because she must like it even though she really doesn't and has never said it was her favorite ride at DLR. Two days ago asked my 5 year old niece (who loves Ariel/Melody/Ursula) if she liked the ride . . . finally got out of her that Ursula is "weird" and not right somehow. Told my brother about Tony Baxter's plan for Mermaid, and he lit up when I told him about the gigantic Ursula in the ocean scene and he said, "That's what I was waiting for, something like that." I seriously doubt Mermaid will be in DCA in 20 years in the condition it is in. It needs to be retooled into a Tony Baxter experience, versus using screens to just cover the main plot points in the film.

They need to do something "astonishing" like have the "Under the Sea" scene, but have it so it is more detailed, and with ride vehicles which zip around the scene, may suspended ride vehicles that can move in the vertical axis randomly while they move horizontally . . . anything so the ride isn't such a chore.

2. Monsters Inc. They re-used the Superstar Limo ride system, and the ride goes so slow the magic is lost . . . plus it ain't that magical given Monstropolis is pretty much like New York. It is easy to see how the swinging door scene is made to look bigger with mirrors . . . not very magical. My favorite part of the ride is the queue with the "Blort" and other stuff in the fake vending machine. A walk-on I rarely ride twice even if I don't have to wait.

3. Toy Story Midway Mania. Kinda fun playing a video game, but I wish we had more Toy Story dark scenes so I could feel I'm in their world. Have been on this ride maybe eight times, not a mus-do, and I doubt I'll really super want to do it after the 20th time, and if I did it would be for the little bit of dark ride and Andy's room at the exit.

I'm sure I'll be happy riding Mater's and RSR on the 50th ride through and beyond as there is so much story with RSR. You've got the scenic drive section past the waterfall and when you narrowly miss the truck it scares you because you feel like you took your eyes off the road, brilliant. Then you've got warm hearted Mater, Radiator Springs with the cars you're imaging, and the thrill part, which sort of makes this ride two good rides combined into one great ride. Mater's is a keeper because everybody loves Mater and the ride provides some surprisingly thrills, plus I really feel I'm in the world of Cars and experiencing something in Mater's junkyard versus just Mater's likeness glued on a ride. If they added an animatronic Mater DJ that would be great, though it might distract people exiting the ride vehicles.

BVS, nice eye candy, but the Pig Cafe has horrible acoustics and I hate to spend time there, and there ain't anything to ride except for the Red Car Trolley which is used for shows. I could see Tony Baxter emphasizing that this "land" (themed corridor, IMHO, not a bonafide land), needs a couple attractions, preferably one being an E-Ticket such as a dark ride into the early days of animation starring Mickey/Oswald. Guests want to dream about/romanticize the early days of animation, why not let them do it with a great ride?

I don't know what personality conflicts may have occurred between Tony and other longtime imagineers . . . but Tony was basically right, yes? It just goes to figure that a guy who has a proven track record for success, and who analyzes what the Disney difference is, would much more than not be "right" concerning the overall design of attractions.

Great post, Pixiedustmaker.
I agree with many of your points.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

The LM ride really threw me at DCA when i rode last Summer, as i was under the impression Tony was involved in this. I guess that comes from the nice little piece he did on the Mermaid Dvd release a few years ago...that great Bonus Feature video segment where he takes us on a ride-through of a ride 'never made'. I remember how that segment on the Dvd really raised some eyebrows and caused a sensation in the fan community when it was originally released. People really wanted that ride to be built that was being shown in the video! I was pretty excited about what i saw too...and it is a darn shame the final realized version of the Mermaid attraction is no where near as good or enveloping.

So i am wondering, what happened to that original vision for the ride besides obvious 'value engineering'?
Was Tony ever really involved in this project, or did he drop out/ lose interest..? Was he ever really heading this project to begin with? He seemed pretty into it in the video...and excited about the original concept he was presenting.

I have a hard time believing the finished versions of Mermaid at DCA and WDW came from his hand, but then again , being robbed of your original budget always hurts any project, no matter who is the lead.
 

OFTeric

Well-Known Member
I foresee a day when Kids want to be Universal Creative designers.... and not imagineers. And people will lear Latin from their TV too.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I think the one difference in Tony that is worth mentioning is that he lives the product. Walt had an apartment in the park and was building a second, Tony built a home that lives strictly by his own Disney aesthetic rules. He lives in his own design ethic. All of the stagecraft of Fantasyland lives at his home. Imagine Toad Hall with a Mercedes in the garage. http://www.sumocobre.com/Tudor.html He did most of it himself. Where did the original Hub Trees go when they replaced them? Tony's yard. But his house does not look like a boneyard of Disney artifacts like so many fans have, it's his own themed world that is consistent to his wishes and knowledge. Tony's residential Disneyland is far more seamless than it is in the park. Nothing contradicts his theme. Yes, there is a toaster, but everything as I recall "works" well together. It is emotionally warm. He controls that domain as it expresses his personality. No one at the company is quite that obsessed. (Ok...My home looks more like the lobby of the Tower of Terror BTW). That kind of passion is something you can't hire and they don't teach at Carnegie Mellon. The 1G guys by and large did not live in themed environments. Claude didn't. Tony is rare in that way. You buy into his thing because he's living it. This gives him unwavering conviction (which can be dangerous) and certainly is contagious.

The other thing that made Tony's projects rich are the how he "cast" them. We pretty much went off on our own once he bought into what we were doing but he assigned us to our roles for a reason. He leveraged our strengths.

He did not design everything either but oversaw his vision. We'd show him things as they progressed, most of which he liked. He spent time with all of us and explained what he expected from the shows. I could second guess him right down to color pretty easily, and so could the others. We were not Robots as I used to argue with him quite a bit, but he'd let me have my way at times as long as it lived within the bigger vision. We all ended up with a dose of his conviction. Tom Morris is extremely talented in ride design and was behind many of the great track layouts with Tony. I specialize in architecture so that was complimentary to MSUSA. So Tim Delaney and others like Chris Tietz chimed in with their respective skills and that made for a great product. Tony knew what we did well and leveraged that into the lands. Kim Irvine down at Disneyland has been tireless in her efforts to keep the show up regardless of lean times or fat. In addition to her legendary talent as an artist, she has a winning way with people, which is critical to navigating the politics of the parks and getting things done. We moved on and evolve into our own projects, but like the many talents I've been able to work with, you learn something from each one. Tony really impressed upon me as did Tom Morris how rides truly get designed and the "why for". He knew what we all did well and leveraged that.
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
I think that if Tony Baxter writes a book, (and it looks like it could be great given how well-written, entertaining, educational, and inspiring his final memo was), it could easily become one of the most important books on Imagineering and Disney ever written . . . and it could impact the culture at WDI/Burbank if the top brass read it.

I would love for him to do this...people have been talking about 'that book' for the past few days.
I agree that it would provide some stunning insights into his thought process, and it would just be so entertaining to read his comments regarding certain projects.

I would not expect him to write a 'tell-all' book..or anything slanting TWDC or WDI...Tony seems too above that kind of pettiness. I see him putting together a awesome showcase of some of his works, as well as perhaps cover some things he enjoys in the Parks that he may have had little to do with. That would be fun ...a little photo tour with Tony, showing us the things he personally enjoys design-wise, or theme-wise, in the Parks or elsewhere.

Tony, i wish you would seriously consider creating your own website blog...or better yet, just come on over here to WDWMagic.com. Who would'nt want to rap with Tony..?
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
I think the one difference in Tony that is worth mentioning is that he lives the product. Walt had an apartment in the park and was building a second, Tony built a home that lives strictly by his own Disney aesthetic rules. He lives in his own design ethic. All of the stagecraft of Fantasyland lives at his home. Imagine Toad Hall with a Mercedes in the garage. http://www.sumocobre.com/Tudor.html He did most of it himself. Where did the original Hub Trees go when they replaced them? Tony's yard. But his house does not look like a boneyard of Disney artifacts like so many fans have, it's his own themed world that is consistent to his wishes and knowledge. Tony's residential Disneyland is far more seamless than it is in the park. Nothing contradicts his theme. Yes, there is a toaster, but everything as I recall "works" well together. It is emotionally warm. He controls that domain as it expresses his personality. No one at the company is quite that obsessed. (Ok...My home looks more like the lobby of the Tower of Terror BTW). That kind of passion is something you can't hire and they don't teach at Carnegie Mellon. The 1G guys by and large did not live in themed environments. Claude didn't. Tony is rare in that way. You buy into his thing because he's living it. This gives him unwavering conviction (which can be dangerous) and certainly is contagious.

Awesome. Thank you for sharing those photos, Eddie.
I have a friend who lives out in CA who actually had the honor of visiting Tony at his home, and he still raves about how amazing it was. He told me about the DL trees, and the garage...and about how one room was dedicated to Figment ( which of course sparked my interest ten-fold). Tony was very generous with his time, and was a true gentlemen hosting my friend and his parents that afternoon.

I totally agree....he was indeed a one off...!
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Awesome. Thank you for sharing those photos, Eddie.
I have a friend who lives out in CA who actually had the honor of visiting Tony at his home, and he still raves about how amazing it was. He told me about the DL trees, and the garage...and about how one room was dedicated to Figment ( which of course sparked my interest ten-fold). Tony was very generous with his time, and was a true gentlemen hosting my friend and his parents that afternoon.

I totally agree....he was indeed a one off...!

The house looks WAY better than those 1994 images. Tony would kill me if he saw that link, but I could not find any other galleries to link. Maybe he'll send me some to post? He has read this thread BTW.
 

Omnispace

Well-Known Member
Tony was involved in that and given this mentoring discussion, the designer assigned to the Fantasy Faire is a talented protege of his, Michel den Dulk. Michel was brought into WDI by Tony from Efteling Park in Europe and was their star designer. Tony has him in an office next to his and they work together. I have seen Dulk's work, (especially his drawing skills) and it's outstanding. Michel gave me a recent tour of his project and it's looking really great. So I know that Tony's mentoring is real and has results that may leave Disneyland in some very good hands.

When I first met Tony we had dinner together and he spoke of "Star polishers". He saw himself as a star "polisher", someone who helps those with talent develop as he was by Claude and others. Forgot about that till this discussion.

Sounds like your friend Michel is well suited to the task. Efteling is one of those parks that have intrigued me for a while now. Unfortunately, I didn't know of it the time I was in the NL so missed the opportunity to see it. It has a unique story for it's founding and it looks like they have worked very hard to continue in the original artistic tradition.

This is the entrance to one of the attractions.

efteling_82_804.jpg
 

Genie of the Lamp

Well-Known Member
I mean besides Mr.Baxter himself seeing it in person over the last few years, he had to find out from some source of well intelligent people that JII was broken to use as support for that comment he said at the IAAPA convention.
 

hiptwinmama

Well-Known Member
I foresee a day when Kids want to be Universal Creative designers.... and not imagineers. And people will lear Latin from their TV too.

I doubt that... Universal is all about thrills and very little about magic, they change rides often based on what ever is popular. Other than Harry Pottery and maybe Jurassic Park or Back to the Future (oh wait... that's gone) and Jaws (oh wait that's gone too) , they have zero understanding of Classic Movies. Magic inspires, Disney inspires. Sure, the direction of upper management has changed the culture a bit, but it will take decades to undo the wonderful gift of magic that Walt (Tony and Eddie) created for all of us. (and that the current management has decided is only for the top 3%) I don't like the way current management is moving forward with under budget projects, but that is just a sign of the times. We see it in every facet of our live.... I just never wanted to see it at WDW.
 

disney fan 13

Well-Known Member
I doubt that... Universal is all about thrills and very little about magic, they change rides often based on what ever is popular. Other than Harry Pottery and maybe Jurassic Park or Back to the Future (oh wait... that's gone) and Jaws (oh wait that's gone too) , they have zero understanding of Classic Movies. Magic inspires, Disney inspires. Sure, the direction of upper management has changed the culture a bit, but it will take decades to undo the wonderful gift of magic that Walt (Tony and Eddie) created for all of us. (and that the current management has decided is only for the top 3%) I don't like the way current management is moving forward with under budget projects, but that is just a sign of the times. We see it in every facet of our live.... I just never wanted to see it at WDW.

...
 

Omnispace

Well-Known Member
I have a friend who lives out in CA who actually had the honor of visiting Tony at his home, and he still raves about how amazing it was. He told me about the DL trees, and the garage...and about how one room was dedicated to Figment ( which of course sparked my interest ten-fold). Tony was very generous with his time, and was a true gentlemen hosting my friend and his parents that afternoon.

That's cool. Do the DL trees have the twinkle lights in them? :)

If it was me I'd have the PeopleMover going around my 12 acre backyard -- take me over to the Adventure Thru Inner Space wing of the house -- pass by the House of the Future along the way... ;)
 

disney fan 13

Well-Known Member
???- not dodging anything, you didn't make a point, you just posted some music, which unless you live under a rock, we all already know the music.

You said "Universal is all about thrills and very little about magic" which prompted me to respond with music from this Generation's most "Magical" Property which is used at Universal's parks to counter your point.
 

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