Monorail Accident

[PhotoDave219]

Last question in my mind for those who know.

Where is the physical switch for the "switch"? Is it in Central (I'm thinking not) or back at the shop? I'm guessing the procedure is:

1. Monorail calls Central and states to move the switch.
2. Central calls the shop and tells them to move the switch.
3. Shops calls Central back to state the move is complete.
4. Central calls monorail to clear.

Also, at the physical switch (in the Shop), is there any visual indication that the switch actually moved? Any security cameras on the actual switch so that the move can be visually verified?

The procedure was posted a few pages back and answers these questions.

 

[cdunbar]

So Board, have your sources shared with you as to when we will have a report of preliminary findings? I do realize that a final, published report could take several weeks, or months. I sincerly hope that disney will not rush through fixing whatever errors the report might disclose, just because they have obviously had to call in back-up bus drivers, and add several more than normal buses to the fleet. But I wouldn't imagine they'll leave the monorail off any longer than they have to because it probably blow the busing systems budget for the month if they began to rely on it. Correct me if I'm wrong.:shrug:

 

[Figment632]

Automation is only as good as the programmers that program the system.

Thats a good point and I know the LV monorail is automated but it's much smaller than WDW. I'm not sure it automation on a monorail has been done on the scale of WDW but I'd like to see them try it. It has nothing to do with the accident, I've wanted them to go automated for some time now.

 

[Master Yoda]

Thats a good point and I know the LV monorail is automated but it's much smaller than WDW. I'm not sure it automation on a monorail has been done on the scale of WDW but I'd like to see them try it. It has nothing to do with the accident, I've wanted them to go automated for some time now.

There was a push to automate the system a few years back. According to a pilot I spoke to around that time that this was going on at least one monorail was outfitted with the fully automated system. The pilot was in place to monitor and override the system if needed.

There was a good bit of fanboy outrage about this as the pilot was considered part of the experience and it would be akin to removing the skippers from JC. I do not know if that had anything to do with the project being scrapped or if the system simply did not work well enough to implement.

 

[Phonedave]

Wow! I'm trying to catch up on all this reading but there's just soooo much. Very tragic all the way around.

The husband and I have talked a lot about the accident. Knowing the safety features that are in place (MAPO, etc.) it's hard to fathom that something like this could happen. In fact, when I was at WDW with my brother and his daughters in May the youngest of my nieces was afraid to ride the monorail. I assured her there are safety systems and proceedures in place to prevent accidents from happening. I told her it was impossible. When we first heard of this accident we were sitting in the airport in Atlanta waiting for our flight.

In another thread it was stated by a former monorail pilot who was told by friends who are still cast members there that pink had overriden or disengaged (not sure which) their MAPO and was reversing. Many pages ago in this thread another poster said that even though pink had overriden theirs that purple's MAPO should have put his train in an e-stop or at least alerted that pilot that another train was too close. Also, in another thread (the one from 2002 where a monorail pilot was discussing the MAPO system) it was stated that once the trains are within 10 feet of each other they no longer "see" each other, it's as if the other train isn't there at all. Some people are assuming that there was a MAPO system failure. Here's our thoughts (and it's purely speculation on our part): we feel like this is not a system failure, it's human error. If pink disengages it's MAPO would it not make it virtually "disappear" within that system? I don't know if that's exactly how it works but it makes sense that this could be a possibility. That could explain a lot. So in theory: pink has disengaged and is moving in reverse, purple's MAPO never "saw" the now "invisible" train coming at it, the 10 foot proximity also tells us that the trains are now "invisible" to each other, and a newer, less experienced pilot who is working some crazy late hours has very little to no time to react. Also, there's a lot of discussion as to which train was moving. Was pink still moving backward? Was purple stopped? Was pink stopped? Was purple moving forward? The theory that pink's disengaged MAPO still could work even if it wasn't in motion. Perhaps pink was stationary but had not yet re-engaged. The monorails don't stop on a dime. Purple could have still run right into it if it didn't know it was there. These are just our thoughts. It's tragic all the way around. I'll be very interested to find out exactly what did happen. If the NTSB is investigating there will be a report and those reports can be read.

My hubby seems to think this will be the end of riding in the front of the monorails with the pilots. I disagree. What do you think?

Overriding the MAPO does not "turn it off" or "make you invisible"

At certain points on the line, the MAPO signal is generated. Each train looks for that signal comming to it from the direction it is travling. In fact it looks for multiple signals. When it sees those signals, it knows the path is clear. Certain things can block those signals - an open switch, a denergized section, or an other train.

When the train sees two or more signals comming to it, it knows there are at least two clear sections ahead of it, and its green

When it sees only one signal, it goes amber, which is in essence saying "I see one clear section ahead, but beyond there there is some problem"

When it sees no signals it stops because it says "I cannot verify this section is clear, I am stopping"

Overiding the MAPO just tells the train "Look, I know there is no signal comming, but there is a reason for it, so now lets move"

The train continues to block the MAPO signal and other trains will continue to see it.

I am not a CM, nor was I ever one, but this is how it was explained to me a number of times. It is also how a block light system works on other rails



One thing to remember is, no matter how many safety interlocks you install and how tight your procedures are, there is always the chance for that freak perfect storm of events to happen where the system fails. I am not saying that is what happend here, or making any sort of call on if the current system was robust or not. I am just saying, I write Methods and Procedures for a living. And you sit down, try to think of everything, vet the procedure with the field, do field trials, re-write the procedure, and then finally release it - after plenty of due dilligence, and then a month later you get a call because someone has hit a situation you never though of.

I truly feel badly for all the people involved. It must be a horrible feeling to know that you were involved in a situation that caused the death of a person - and caused such damage and had such an impact as well. Even if you did nothing wrong and "did things by the book" that event is going to hang over you for a long long time.

-dave

 

[krankenstein]

Why was the monorail running so late?...epcot closed at 10 so why were people on it at 2 and the monorail still running then

MK was open until 1 am.

 

[brkgnews]

Question for those actually in the know...

... and playing "what if" in the process ...

IF we work under the PRESUMPTION (again, playing "what if") that pink was backing up and struck purple...

Pink would have to be in MAPO override in order to go backward down the line.

Purple would be in normal operation and would NOT be in MAPO override, right?

So, IF Pink intruded into Purple's zones... would Purple's MAPO system kick in and do an E-stop on Purple (even though it was at zero speed)? IE... making it impossible for purple to move even if to perform evasive maneuvers (driving like hell in the opposite direction?).

Does the E-Stop system only work on the train causing the intrusion? And could it have been "confused" by the backward motion of Pink and tricked into thinking Purple was causing the problem since that would be the normal direction of travel?

Again, this is a "WHAT IF" scenario and is 100% hypothetical with no basis in any known facts at the present time.

 

[cnymike]

It could only be persumed that the estop would hit purple. Even is MAPO wasn't looking for signals while it wasn't moving, the second they slammed it into reverse, one can only think it would go searching for MAPO signals, and stop on a dime. I have no clue how much of this works, but there is a possibility it only looks for signals in the direction of travel.

You've also got to wonder, how long can those two trains go avoiding an accident before another train comes in the mix? Hopefully by then someone could get on the radio or kill everything.

 

[wdwmagic]

Monorail system has been handed over from OSHA, and is now in testing with plans to reopen today.

 

[Figment4Ever]

The Sentinel is reporting that OSHA has released the monorails back to Disney (which makes sense since others are reporting that the monorail system is about to come back online) and that Disney is installing additional sensors to ensure the switches are where they are supposed to be. If the Sentinel is to be believed, that would imply the speculation about the switch not making it to the right place is correct.

What a horrific thing to happen to such a young and vibrant CM. Thanks to those who have provided me an education about the monorail system over the past 24+ hours...

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Overriding the MAPO does not "turn it off" or "make you invisible"

At certain points on the line, the MAPO signal is generated. Each train looks for that signal comming to it from the direction it is travling. In fact it looks for multiple signals. When it sees those signals, it knows the path is clear. Certain things can block those signals - an open switch, a denergized section, or an other train.

When the train sees two or more signals comming to it, it knows there are at least two clear sections ahead of it, and its green

When it sees only one signal, it goes amber, which is in essence saying "I see one clear section ahead, but beyond there there is some problem"

When it sees no signals it stops because it says "I cannot verify this section is clear, I am stopping"

Overiding the MAPO just tells the train "Look, I know there is no signal comming, but there is a reason for it, so now lets move"

The train continues to block the MAPO signal and other trains will continue to see it.

I am not a CM, nor was I ever one, but this is how it was explained to me a number of times. It is also how a block light system works on other rails



One thing to remember is, no matter how many safety interlocks you install and how tight your procedures are, there is always the chance for that freak perfect storm of events to happen where the system fails. I am not saying that is what happend here, or making any sort of call on if the current system was robust or not. I am just saying, I write Methods and Procedures for a living. And you sit down, try to think of everything, vet the procedure with the field, do field trials, re-write the procedure, and then finally release it - after plenty of due dilligence, and then a month later you get a call because someone has hit a situation you never though of.

I truly feel badly for all the people involved. It must be a horrible feeling to know that you were involved in a situation that caused the death of a person - and caused such damage and had such an impact as well. Even if you did nothing wrong and "did things by the book" that event is going to hang over you for a long long time.

-dave

Thanks, Dave. We weren't sure exactly how the system worked. Hubby was thinking in the direction of the safety systems in place in his world which is piping, fittings, vessels, processes, etc. In that realm disengaging or overriding one can throw off an entire system of safety systems which does hold some logic. I'm still interested in what the former pilot stated in that other thread that once the trains are within 10 feet of each other they no longer read anything. I guess it's just too close and too many of those signals covered up to read anything at all. Very interesting.

Oh yeah. I've written procedures before, too, in law enforcement communications. That's another of those things that no matter how many different variables you try to address you can never encapsulate it all because things are ever-changing and no two situations are ever identical. You just do your best and stay open to the process of learning and revision. I hope that is what happens with this tragedy. It won't be in vain if lessons are learned and corrections are made. The best way to honor this young man is to ensure that something good can come of this.

I also feel for all those involved. I mentioned that to one of my boys not 10 minutes ago. From experience, it's not an easy thing when you know that someone's safety, well-being, and life are literally in your hands. Knowing that your decisions and actions dictate if people live or die is a lot of weight to carry. The gravity of it is astronomical. When something goes wrong you question your every thought, your every move. It's tough. As with law enforcement, I know there is a "family" feeling among the cast. To be involved in something like this would be horrendous to say the least. I hope the pilot's Disney family and at-home family are all able to support one another and make it through this difficult time. My heart goes out to each and every one of them.

 

[Pens24]

MK was open until 1 am.

I know that but the accident happened on the epcot track so why was the epcot monorail still running?

 

[PhotoDave219]

Question for those actually in the know...

... and playing "what if" in the process ...

IF we work under the PRESUMPTION (again, playing "what if") that pink was backing up and struck purple...

Pink would have to be in MAPO override in order to go backward down the line.

Purple would be in normal operation and would NOT be in MAPO override, right?

So, IF Pink intruded into Purple's zones... would Purple's MAPO system kick in and do an E-stop on Purple (even though it was at zero speed)? IE... making it impossible for purple to move even if to perform evasive maneuvers (driving like hell in the opposite direction?).

Does the E-Stop system only work on the train causing the intrusion? And could it have been "confused" by the backward motion of Pink and tricked into thinking Purple was causing the problem since that would be the normal direction of travel?

Again, this is a "WHAT IF" scenario and is 100% hypothetical with no basis in any known facts at the present time.

I'm not getting at what you mean. Are you wondering why the E-Stops didn't kick in? Pink was in override and its possible that Purple was in override, advancing to another hold point just outside the station.

I really think that it doesn't matter with who was in what zone or anything having to do with the stopped Purple train.

What matters IMO is that Pink went a long distance the wrong way on the wrong track and even through a station without realizing he was on the wrong track as well as past station attendants and central without killing the system. That's a lot of people who could have prevented the accident, IMO.

 

[Brian Noble]

I hope the next time the fleet is updated they go for a fully automated fleet.

As someone who holds a Ph.D. in computer science, I disagree with you.

 

[Figment632]

There was a push to automate the system a few years back. According to a pilot I spoke to around that time that this was going on at least one monorail was outfitted with the fully automated system. The pilot was in place to monitor and override the system if needed.

There was a good bit of fanboy outrage about this as the pilot was considered part of the experience and it would be akin to removing the skippers from JC. I do not know if that had anything to do with the project being scrapped or if the system simply did not work well enough to implement.

Thanks I didn't know that. I don't like how someone needs to be there to monitor, that kind of defeats the purpose of having an automated system.

 

[krankenstein]

I know that but the accident happened on the epcot track so why was the epcot monorail still running?

Same reason it was opened last year after EPCOT closed. I had parked my car at EPCOT and hopped over to MK for the fireworks that afternoon. I stayed in MK until right around 1 and had to get back to my car at EPCOT.

WDW transportation runs an hour after park closing for that very reason. :shrug:

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Question for those actually in the know...

... and playing "what if" in the process ...

IF we work under the PRESUMPTION (again, playing "what if") that pink was backing up and struck purple...

Pink would have to be in MAPO override in order to go backward down the line.

Purple would be in normal operation and would NOT be in MAPO override, right?

So, IF Pink intruded into Purple's zones... would Purple's MAPO system kick in and do an E-stop on Purple (even though it was at zero speed)? IE... making it impossible for purple to move even if to perform evasive maneuvers (driving like hell in the opposite direction?).

Does the E-Stop system only work on the train causing the intrusion? And could it have been "confused" by the backward motion of Pink and tricked into thinking Purple was causing the problem since that would be the normal direction of travel?

Again, this is a "WHAT IF" scenario and is 100% hypothetical with no basis in any known facts at the present time.

I thought of that, too! If a monorail is in a full e-stop would the pilot of that train have the ability to override and take evasive action if necessary? If so, what is the process/procedure? How long does it take to do it? This isn't a question for just this accident. It's an in-general how-does-the-system-work thing.

 

[cdunbar]

I know that but the accident happened on the epcot track so why was the epcot monorail still running?

Yeah I was curious as to that as well... I mean did it have to do with the fact that with the July 4th holiday there were just SO MANY people that they were running that severly behind, but then again that would be 4hrs+ after park closing....

 

[Main Street USA]

I know that but the accident happened on the epcot track so why was the epcot monorail still running?

Because people park at Epcot, and have to get back to their cars from the MK.

 

[brkgnews]

I'm not getting at what you mean. Are you wondering why the E-Stops didn't kick in? Pink was in override and its possible that Purple was in override, advancing to another hold point just outside the station.

I really think that it doesn't matter with who was in what zone or anything having to do with the stopped Purple train.

Actually... to the contrary... I'm wondering if Purple's e-stops could have kicked in (if it was NOT in Override) and prevented it from moving when/if the pilot saw the approaching train (pink).