The Swan and Dolphin's Fate

IcicleM

New Member
Now, this isn't quite news or much of a rumor, but I do know that apparently the two hotels were built and people viewed them as ugly, and "eye sores" and apparently the contract is going to run out, eventually. I've been wondering what's going to happen to the hotels?

They're also MGM Studios Hotels, and (as another discussion was going on) the name MGM may (eventually) be dropped, and (most likely) the park will be called Disney Studios (because in Paris, that's what they call themselves already) and then blah blah blah and fiddledee-dee, what's gonna happen to the two hotels? @_@
 

Monty

Brilliant...and Canadian
In the Parks
No
I'm not entirely sure, but I think they're leased for 99 years... They won't be going anywhere soon.
 
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IcicleM

New Member
Original Poster
Hot dang, 99 years. @_@ I didn't know that was the contract. Yeah, some crazy Boat Driver from MGM to Epcot was telling everyone about the contract, and the blah blah eye sore, and he said it'll eventually run out, and "who knows what'll happen to the towers." So yeah, haha. Crazy boat man... :p
 
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CaptainMichael

Well-Known Member
IcicleM said:
Hot dang, 99 years. @_@ I didn't know that was the contract. Yeah, some crazy Boat Driver from MGM to Epcot was telling everyone about the contract, and the blah blah eye sore, and he said it'll eventually run out, and "who knows what'll happen to the towers." So yeah, haha. Crazy boat man... :p
He needs to be reported if he was dissing an on-property resort...not good for business...especially a resort that his boat services.
 
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SpongeScott

Well-Known Member
IcicleM said:
Hot dang, 99 years. @_@ I didn't know that was the contract. Yeah, some crazy Boat Driver from MGM to Epcot was telling everyone about the contract, and the blah blah eye sore, and he said it'll eventually run out, and "who knows what'll happen to the towers." So yeah, haha. Crazy boat man... :p
never ever trust information from a Disney transportation worker.
 
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ghostlyguitar

New Member
Are you sure he was talking about the Swan and Dolphin?

There are a couple towers going up just outside of Disney property that will be visible from inside, possibly in the parks. I don't picture Swan and Dolphin as being towers, really, so those planned condos or hotels or whatever they are popped into my head. Could he have been talking about those?

I do think it's bad show to be complaining about a Disney resort while working for Disney on Disney property. Probably not the best thing to do!

-Adam-
 
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mkt

Disney's Favorite Scumbag™
Premium Member
ghostlyguitar said:
Are you sure he was talking about the Swan and Dolphin?

There are a couple towers going up just outside of Disney property that will be visible from inside, possibly in the parks. I don't picture Swan and Dolphin as being towers, really, so those planned condos or hotels or whatever they are popped into my head. Could he have been talking about those?

I do think it's bad show to be complaining about a Disney resort while working for Disney on Disney property. Probably not the best thing to do!

-Adam-
it's not a Disney resort if Disney isn't getting revenue ;)
 
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Mecha Figment

New Member
yeah dont' trust those boat drivers, i rode it the other day and they spouted off countless false information. They are still spreading the rumor that the swan and dolphin were intended to be monorail resorts. which is false. that square section of the resorts is a architecural trade mark of the architect.
 
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CRO-Magnum

Active Member
Going back to my CRO days when they opened...

IcicleM said:
Now, this isn't quite news or much of a rumor, but I do know that apparently the two hotels were built and people viewed them as ugly, and "eye sores" and apparently the contract is going to run out, eventually. I've been wondering what's going to happen to the hotels?

...we were told alot of things. We were told that the hotels were the result of a lawsuit. Disney had promised Terramark (sp?) the chance to build a Holiday Inn and a Sheraton in the Disney Village. Then Steinberg, Pickens, etc greemailed Disney. That group sought Marriott as a potential buyer of the Disney hotels (remember Gary Wilson future CFO for Disney was CFO for Marriott at the time). Marriott was building their World Center and said they didn't want any new hotels built if they were going to make the deal. Steinberg et al forced Disney to stop construction of the Holiday Inn which had already started and cancel the contracts. Instead Disney built their casting center on one of the sites.

Terramark and Sheraton (Holiday Inn pulled out) sued Disney and won. Disney was required to give them properties Disney intended to build their own hotels on. Disney won the right of final approval of the architecture. Eisner hired Michael Graves as the architect and gave him cart blanche. Imagineering tried to float balloons to check heights from within Epcot but Eisner refused. Once built Eisner complained about the visibility of the hotels from the park and ask Imagineering what their solution was - one suggested removing the hotels. Eisner asked them about building a berm which was laughed off since it would require filling the space between Epcot and the hotels with dirt.

For whatever reason the Swan chose an interior decor that was hideous. Constrasting colors, busy carpet and wall covering, and nothing matched the Swan theme. And the hotel was EXPENSIVE. We had to offer rooms in order of price: $365 at the top end and $250 at the bottom end when you could get the Grand Floridian concierge for $350 and a garden view for $215. I remember to this day getting a call from a lady begging me to do whatever I could to get her out of her horrid hotel room at the Swan. I switched her to the Grand Floridian AND saved her money. She actually called back to give me a guest compliment for helping her out! On our property visit I laughed when I saw the decor. Upon returning we were told to record all guest complaints of the hotel and report them to our leads daily.

One interesting note is that as part of the lawsuit we could NOT identify the hotels as non-Disney properties. Only if a guest asked could we explain the hotels were owned by Westin and Sheraton. Many a guest called ticked off thinking it was a Disney hotel with sub-par value only to be relieved in finding out it was a Sheraton or Westin. Then again many were made we didn't disclose it wasn't a Disney hotel.

For extra hours I work for the data group at Disney conducting questionnaires at the parks (on paper - not the new electronic kind). The first questionnaire was on the decor of the Swan and the staff (the Dolphin had not opened yet). We were told that the contract enabled Disney to seize control of the hotels if enough guest complaints were gathered regarding the quality of the hotel and the staff. However whatever that magic number was we were never told and I'm sure we didn't come close.

The Swan realized what was going on and toned down their decor removing the hanging monkeys from the lobby for example. Supposedly the Dolphin toned their decorating down after hearing about the Swan. There were more fights and lawsuits - when Disney refused water taxi service, when Disney built the Yacht & Beach clubs, when the Dolphin/Swan busses were refused access to the parks, etc.

The hotels are a modular construction and we were told, designed to be removed quickly. I was told years later by a Disney construction manager that a study was done on the feasability and cost of reducing the height of each of the hotels by removing lower stories instead of just knocking them down.

We were also told that the leases were 30 years, not the traditional 99, because Disney maintained ownership of the lots and it was standard per the Disney Village hotels.

Everything I was told then has been corroborated by information I have read since or has been shared with me when I was consulting to Disney.
 
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CaptainMichael

Well-Known Member
IcicleM said:
Oh blah, haha, maybe he was just giving his opinion. ^_^ I like the hotels, but maybe he just... doesn't. Meh
He doesn't have to like them, and he doesn't have to like Disney, but when he is onstage being paid by Disney to sell happiness and magic, he needs to be the ideal Disney employee. Of all things, he should not be complaining about a resort that his job serves especially since there was probably Swan and Dolphin guests on the boat.

That's what I wanna hear on my trip, that everyone thinks my resort sucks...even the CM's, and that everyone wants it torn dow.:rolleyes:

It is not a crime to have opinions, but it is wise to exercise caution before expressing them.:)
 
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lewisc

Well-Known Member
I don't know if it was bad information but I was told Disney wasn't allowed to build a major convention center for 10 years after the S/D opened. S/D has much more convention space than all the other hotels EXCLUDING CSR combined. CSR opened about 10 years after the S/D opened.
 
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Slowjack

Well-Known Member
The Story of the Swan and Dolphin...

I've read about this situation many times, and the most complete version I've read was in "Building a Dream," which is a great book if you are interested in both architecture and Disney, by the way. It differs from CRO-Magnum's version in some respects, plus some of this story just smells fishy to me...
CRO-Magnum said:
Terramark and Sheraton (Holiday Inn pulled out) sued Disney and won. Disney was required to give them properties Disney intended to build their own hotels on. Disney won the right of final approval of the architecture.
That seems an awfully specific settlement...properties Disney intended to build their own hotels on. What "Building a Dream" says is that to get Tishman Hotels to agree to cancel the first contract, Disney agreed to give them a better location than they originally had, so long as Disney got to design to hotels. Note that Tishman Hotels is who actually owns the Swan and the Dolphin, at least according to them...http://www.tishmanhotels.com/corporate.html.
Eisner hired Michael Graves as the architect and gave him cart blanche.
According to "Building a Dream," Eisner wanted Michael Graves and Robert Venturi to work together. There's a funny quote where, when Graves found out about this idea, he asked Eisner if that wasn't something like asking Spielberg and Lucas to make a film together, and Eisner answered he had done that very thing at Paramount! ("Raiders of the Lost Ark."). When Graves and Venturi met, though, Venturi said he didn't want to work together, he wanted a contest. Graves agreed.
Imagineering tried to float balloons to check heights from within Epcot but Eisner refused. Once built Eisner complained about the visibility of the hotels from the park and ask Imagineering what their solution was - one suggested removing the hotels. Eisner asked them about building a berm which was laughed off since it would require filling the space between Epcot and the hotels with dirt.
According to "Building a Dream," both designers (along with the designer of the original hotel, whoc was also allowed to compete) were given rules about the height of the hotel, but in the end Graves decided to ignore them. Eisner eventually came around to the idea of them being visible from inside Epcot and went with Grave's design--that wasn't something that surprised Eisner after they were built (say what you want about Eisner, he's not a complete idiot).
For whatever reason the Swan chose an interior decor that was hideous. Constrasting colors, busy carpet and wall covering, and nothing matched the Swan theme.
Graves is on record saying he picked out the color schemes for both hotels. He diesgned the light fixtures, the chairs in the restaurants, etc. He designed almost eveything in the hotels.
The hotels are a modular construction and we were told, designed to be removed quickly. I was told years later by a Disney construction manager that a study was done on the feasability and cost of reducing the height of each of the hotels by removing lower stories instead of just knocking them down.
That is absurd. Come on! Designed to be removed quickly? Tearing off the top of the hotel? No way.
Everything I was told then has been corroborated by information I have read since or has been shared with me when I was consulting to Disney.
Well, that may be true but the problem is that people share stories among themselves so it gets into the air. That's why CMs are such unreliable sources for Disney history. You ever heard the one about the Contemporary being designed so that all the rooms could be taken out, trucked to a different location, so they can be redecorated? That story doesn't make a lick of sense, and has be debunked by John Hench, and yet Jim Hill wrote it on his site, and when I e-mailed him about it, he said that Admiral Joe Fowler himself told him that story! Anyway, in "Building a Dream" the story quotes Graves himself, as well as Wing Chao and others who were right there. Probably some of the details as regards the legal wranglings may never be completely transparent.
 
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cloudboy

Well-Known Member
I think there is a lot of bias that goes into the reports on those two hotels. You should do some reading up in Building a Dream and some of the business publications about Disney.

Yes, they were originally the results of a lawsuit. But as far as the design goes, Eisner was a hueg fan of architecture and Graves in particular. He thought he was going to move Disney into a higher level by getting some "real" architecture built there. He has since done a number of big name buildings, such as the Tem Disney Buildings and Casting Center and Fire stations.

The Swan and Dolphin are probably not to the taste of the typical Disney goer, and are a bit trendy. I have not stayed at them myself, but from what I have seen of the lobby I actually kind of like them. They have not received a lot of critical acclaim - both because post-modernism never hit the big time, and because a lot of people saw this as selling out to Disney.
 
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I personally do not like how they impede the view of EPCOT and think that they should go. I also think that Disney needs to be agressively buying more and more property around WDW to help prevent more and more encroachment, not to mention the fact that it most likely will be cheaper buying now than in 10 or 20 years---if it's available by then. S/D can go bye-bye as far as I'm concerned.
 
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DisneyJill

Well-Known Member
A company called Tishman Hotel Corporation actually owns the Swan and Dolphin and Starwood manages the properties. Sheraton operates the Dolphin and Westin operates the Swan. Starwood actually owns very few of their properties. Just as an FYI, Tishman also owns the Hilton on Hotel Plaza Blvd. Hilton operates it. http://www.tishmanhotels.com/portfolio.html

:wave:
 
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