The Pinocchio ride in Dumbo's Circusland

[mharrington]

I would like some information on the never-built Dumbo's Circusland, in particular this one ride themed Pinocchio that would have been built there before that ride ultimately did come into being as part of the Fantasyland overhaul of 1983. I have here a piece of concept art for the ride had it been built in Dumbo's Circusland:

Can anyone explain how it would have been different from the Pinocchio ride that did get built? We know that the ride (the actual ride) ends in Geppetto's village and workshop, but how would that have worked in Dumbo's Circusland?

I have searched everywhere for it online, but found nothing, except for a blurb about how it would have had Stromboli's puppet theater in the queue. In addition, according to David Koenig in his book "Mouse Under Glass", the Pinocchio ride supposedly would have been set in a Pleasure Island-themed subsection of the land. But again, that's all I know. Does anyone else have any other information on this ride in this area?

Just so you know, I had asked around on the Disney History Institute fanpage on Facebook, but either got nothing or musings on the land as a whole, in particular the unrelated Circus Disney attraction. I don't want that. I want information on the Pinocchio ride, if there is any at all.

 

[CaptinEO]

I would like some information on the never-built Dumbo's Circusland, in particular this one ride themed Pinocchio that would have been built there before that ride ultimately did come into being as part of the Fantasyland overhaul of 1983. I have here a piece of concept art for the ride had it been built in Dumbo's Circusland:

Can anyone explain how it would have been different from the Pinocchio ride that did get built? We know that the ride (the actual ride) ends in Geppetto's village and workshop, but how would that have worked in Dumbo's Circusland?

I have searched everywhere for it online, but found nothing, except for a blurb about how it would have had Stromboli's puppet theater in the queue. In addition, according to David Koenig in his book "Mouse Under Glass", the Pinocchio ride supposedly would have been set in a Pleasure Island-themed subsection of the land. But again, that's all I know. Does anyone else have any other information on this ride in this area?

Just so you know, I had asked around on the Disney History Institute fanpage on Facebook, but either got nothing or musings on the land as a whole, in particular the unrelated Circus Disney attraction. I don't want that. I want information on the Pinocchio ride, if there is any at all.

I think with concept art and ideas that never made it past the drawing board, you won't usually find much. This could be as far as the idea ever got.

 

[Sharon&Susan]

The idea for a New Fantasyland for Disneyland that would be upgraded to the level or beyond that of the improved, at the time new WDW Fantasyland seems to have been an idea that was prominent at WED throughout the whole of the 70's. The Fantasyland Theater venue was an obvious target for a fifth dark ride. The theater had an unimpressive dated interior and was playing old Mickey Mouse cartoons all day as filler.

While there seems to have been a few other concepts for dark rides shifting around (like for Hubie the Love Bug or Marc Davis's Silly Symphony one) Pinocchio would've been an obvious choice for the heart of Fantasyland considering the movie's importance to the comapany's image and often being considered Walt Disney's best movie. I wouldn't be surprised if the plans for a Pinocchio dark ride got constantly shifted between Dumbo Circusland and New Fantasyland resulting in little work getting done on it until after the Circusland project got cancelled and it was officially incorporated into the New FL project.

 

[TP2000]

What an interesting piece of old concept art @mharrington! Thanks for sharing it with us.

Could it be as simple as the Pinnocchio dark ride for the 1970's Dumbo Circusland bubbled along until it morphed itself into Pinnocchio's Daring Journey for the 1983 New Fantasyland?

And Stromboli's Puppet Show in the queue seemed to be a precursor to Mr. Potato Head in the Midway Mania queue thirty years later!

 

[mharrington]

What an interesting piece of old concept art @mharrington! Thanks for sharing it with us.

Could it be as simple as the Pinnocchio dark ride for the 1970's Dumbo Circusland bubbled along until it morphed itself into Pinnocchio's Daring Journey for the 1983 New Fantasyland?

And Stromboli's Puppet Show in the queue seemed to be a precursor to Mr. Potato Head in the Midway Mania queue thirty years later!

What I would like to know is, had it been in Dumbo's Circusland and it ended as the actual ride does now, how would the Pinocchio ride be able to transition from Geppetto's village and workshop back to the circus theming?

 

[Professortango1]

What I would like to know is, had it been in Dumbo's Circusland and it ended as the actual ride does now, how would the Pinocchio ride be able to transition from Geppetto's village and workshop back to the circus theming?

The same way we transition from Neverland back to London or transition from Hell to London. The FL dark ride ends once we reach our final scene. The ride could function in a similar way than we have today with a Pleasure Island themed land/facade.

 

[mharrington]

The same way we transition from Neverland back to London or transition from Hell to London. The FL dark ride ends once we reach our final scene. The ride could function in a similar way than we have today with a Pleasure Island themed land/facade.

But how can Geppetto's workshop fit in the theme of a circus?

 

[Professortango1]

But how can Geppetto's workshop fit in the theme of a circus?

It doesn't. But neither does Hell doesn't fit the medieval courtyard nor 1890's London skyline/Neverland fits it. Most of the loading stations are abstract murals and not a literal location. Once the ride pulls in, you exit in a liminal space and then re-enter the land itself once you exit the attraction's exit. It is not like Galaxy's Edge where everything is supposed to be seamless between land and attraction.

 

[mharrington]

It doesn't. But neither does Hell doesn't fit the medieval courtyard nor 1890's London skyline/Neverland fits it. Most of the loading stations are abstract murals and not a literal location. Once the ride pulls in, you exit in a liminal space and then re-enter the land itself once you exit the attraction's exit. It is not like Galaxy's Edge where everything is supposed to be seamless between land and attraction.

That may have been fine in pre-1983 Fantasyland, with its simple medieval tents, but how would it have worked after 1983? How is the space liminal?

 

[Professortango1]

That may have been fine in pre-1983 Fantasyland, with its simple medieval tents, but how would it have worked after 1983? How is the space liminal?

Because the loading station for Pinocchio is currently a painted mural. It isn't an immersive real-world environment. The unload space is a painted mural of Geppetto painting a wooden doll on your right and medieval stone windows on your left. It if was a mural of Geppetto painting a wooden doll and a sideshow wall or circus calliope it wouldn't affect the ride experience at all. It is a transitional space between ride and the land. Meant to be interesting enough to not stand out as cheap and ugly, but also not to draw any focus which would cause guests to stop and look and clog the unload area.

The current windows on the left do not match the architecture and elements found within the attraction, yet nobody cares because it doesn't jump out. Why would swapping out unmatching unload area features for another unmatching unload area feature matter? Since Pinocchio fits within a circus-themed land due to its Pleasure Island ties, exiting the ride from a toyshop into a circus themed area wouldn't be a big shock or transition. Just as exiting a painting of an Italian 1880's toyshop into a medieval courtyard isn't jarring for anyone currently.

 

[wdrive]

That may have been fine in pre-1983 Fantasyland, with its simple medieval tents, but how would it have worked after 1983? How is the space liminal?

The post you quoted answers your questions.

 

[mharrington]

The post you quoted answers your questions.

What does that mean?

 

[wdrive]

What does that mean?

That the post you quoted answered all the questions you were asking in your follow up post

 

[Phroobar]

 

[mharrington]

One reason I had posted this thread was to see how/if a Pinocchio ride would work in Storybook Circus, particularly since Pinocchio is an Italian puppet, while the Circus is predominantly American, with steam trains and airplanes.

@MickeyMouse10 insisted there were no problems, but then @Evilgidgit brought up some good points about thematic (in)consistency, that this circus was mostly run by animals with no humans in sight (the Cast Members notwithstanding). Here's what @Evilgidgit said exactly:

Pinocchio has theatrical and circus/funfair elements throughout in relation to Stromboli and Pleasure Island, but both are actually locations that are secretly dangerous and threatening to the character. So, you have to wonder and ask why would Pinocchio be a part of a semi-modern day circus that is apparently run by animals? Mickey's Madhouse can work because he and his friends are a part of the circus and live in a modern setting (whilst able to be placed elsewhere in time). Pinocchio is a little more grounded in his setting and world. Unless New Fantasyland and Storybook Circus exist in a more Kingdom Hearts type universe where such places can all co-exist without issue. I believe the overall idea for NF was for it to be a magical location where fairy tales and storybooks merge together as one, regardless of temporal displacement.

Pinocchio has always been associated with the circus/funfair/theatre aesthetic, as seen in his dark ride, in parades and shows, etc. Placing Geppetto's workshop in a circus would make no sense. The Disney attractions tend to present what could be considered alternate takes on the films, or at a point where the characters exist before or after their happy endings. Pinocchio would likely be a puppet as that is how most people recognise him or visually imagine him. It would be a bit contradictory setting an attraction after the film's ending, as it would neutralise Pinocchio's happy ending by turning him back into a puppet. Frozen Ever After and Splash Mountain 2.0 follow the "set after the film" narrative, but that can't really be done with Pinocchio, since the character undergoes a life changing transformation.

So, you either find a way to incorporate the need for Pinocchio to be within the circus as a puppet or alternatively do it as a "after the film" step where he is human and has joined the circus for a reason - perhaps to present his father's puppets to a large audience, or he is getting up to mischief, or has merged the better traits of Pleasure Island into Storybook Circus. Maybe Honest John and Gideon turned over a new leaf and joined the circus, or in a "what if" scenario, didn't take Pinocchio to the theatre and instead the trio joined the circus. I'm spitballing here, but laying down the foundation of the story and how it ties in with Storybook Circus is a good place to start, if the option to add a Pinocchio ride is considered.

Of course, there is the fact that the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train doesn't appear to have an "after the film" narrative, nor do the Fantasyland dark rides (Peter Pan, Winnie the Pooh, The Little Mermaid), which are all just the original movies done up in dark ride form.

 

[Professortango1]

Pinocchio has always been associated with the circus/funfair/theatre aesthetic, as seen in his dark ride, in parades and shows, etc. Placing Geppetto's workshop in a circus would make no sense.

The ride isn't set in Geppetto's Workshop. We start in a mural of a city street and travel immediately into the Puppet Theatre. Peter Pan's flight has us taking off from a late 1800's London skyline despite the land taking place in 15th-16th Century Europe. Its almost as if the theme of the land doesn't directly tie into the attraction itself. Snow White's ride never tries to tackle the question of why a carousel is set up in the courtyard of the Evil Queen's castle. Lands contain a loose theme and aura. Adventureland is exotic and tropical and once Indy opened, a 1930's era. Nobody minds the fact that a Polynesian themed attraction exits to the queue for two attractions set in an Southeast Asia motif. Its why POTC works at WDW's Adventureland, DLR's NOS, and Shangai's Treasure Cove. The land informs the show building and melts into the queue, but he ride stands as an independent story which only ties to the themes and feeling of the land itself. Fantasyland is currently old world European Fairy Tale. If it was changed to Vintage Circus, Pinocchio would still fit just as well whereas the other darkrides and attractions wouldn't tie in with that energy and theme.

As for Dumbo's Circus being a circus ran by animals, I must have missed that in the film. I always got the feeling that the humans ran the circus, its just that we focus on Dumbo and his associates. Its like Babe. We focus on Babe and the animals, but the Hoggett family is clearly running the farm. Unless we're talking about the 80's toddler show, Dumbo's Circus, where mascot animals teach daily lessons, which sounds like it was inspired by the same idea, basing ideas on Dumbo's circus aesthetic. Remember Pinocchio is also a world where a Cat and Fox walk around in people's clothes and talk with people and nobody seems to mind or think it strange, so even if it was synergy with the planned toddler show, it's not like it doesn't work.

 

[mharrington]

The ride isn't set in Geppetto's Workshop. We start in a mural of a city street and travel immediately into the Puppet Theatre. Peter Pan's flight has us taking off from a late 1800's London skyline despite the land taking place in 15th-16th Century Europe. Its almost as if the theme of the land doesn't directly tie into the attraction itself. Snow White's ride never tries to tackle the question of why a carousel is set up in the courtyard of the Evil Queen's castle. Lands contain a loose theme and aura. Adventureland is exotic and tropical and once Indy opened, a 1930's era. Nobody minds the fact that a Polynesian themed attraction exits to the queue for two attractions set in an Southeast Asia motif. Its why POTC works at WDW's Adventureland, DLR's NOS, and Shangai's Treasure Cove. The land informs the show building and melts into the queue, but he ride stands as an independent story which only ties to the themes and feeling of the land itself. Fantasyland is currently old world European Fairy Tale. If it was changed to Vintage Circus, Pinocchio would still fit just as well whereas the other darkrides and attractions wouldn't tie in with that energy and theme.

So, basically, lands like Fantasyland and Adventureland have no one overarching theme at all? On an unrelated matter, is that why something like World Showcase needs to be more scrutinized with its theme (i.e., visiting representations of real places) while, say, Fantasyland or Adventureland do not?

As for Dumbo's Circus being a circus ran by animals, I must have missed that in the film. I always got the feeling that the humans ran the circus, its just that we focus on Dumbo and his associates. Its like Babe. We focus on Babe and the animals, but the Hoggett family is clearly running the farm. Unless we're talking about the 80's toddler show, Dumbo's Circus, where mascot animals teach daily lessons, which sounds like it was inspired by the same idea, basing ideas on Dumbo's circus aesthetic. Remember Pinocchio is also a world where a Cat and Fox walk around in people's clothes and talk with people and nobody seems to mind or think it strange, so even if it was synergy with the planned toddler show, it's not like it doesn't work.

What are your thoughts on the "after the film" mentality that @Evilgidgit thinks needs to be taken into account with any Pinocchio ride?

 

[Professortango1]

So, basically, lands like Fantasyland and Adventureland have no one overarching theme at all? On an unrelated matter, is that why something like World Showcase needs to be more scrutinized with its theme (i.e., visiting representations of real places) while, say, Fantasyland or Adventureland do not?



What are your thoughts on the "after the film" mentality that @Evilgidgit thinks needs to be taken into account with any Pinocchio ride?

Fantasyland and Adventureland do have overarching themes. Adventureland is the spirit of the exotic untamed jungles of the world. For rides to fit within the land, they need to fit that tone and feeling. Its why many object to Flying Carpets in WDW as it stands out as not really gelling with the real-world feeling of the land while Aladdin's Oasis fit it much better when it was operating as it felt like a real world bizarre and featured live actors. Fantasyland, as already stated, is European fairy tales. Dumbo and Casey Jr are the weak links thematically as they are not really European nor Fairy Tale-like, but they are presented in such simplicity and detachment from the source material that it is easy to overlook it and just focus on the cartoon elephant who flies just as Pooh's European roots are often forgotten which allows it to slip under the radar in Critter Country.

As for after the film, I don't think its necessary. The ride exists right now as a representation of the film. If Fantasyland was changed to a Circus-themed land, the story would still fit as the theme of the ride is running away from home to join the theatre/circus and then the desire to return home. There's no need to change the story just as they didn't change the story for Peter Pan or Alice in Wonderland. Snow White had a different story until recently, not because of the land, but to make it a strong and focused attraction that sold the feeling of being chased by something scary. Toad is inspired by the film and presented as a chaotic madcap joyride rather than giving us recreations of story elements.

You could argue that a Circus theme could open up different ride ideas for a Pleasure Island themed attraction, but there's no reason the current ride couldn't also work as it currently is. In either case, there's no need to make the attraction a sequel. Sequel attractions don't really work in my opinion. Frozen Ever After is weak story-wise and is only saved by the animatronics and music and people would likely be more excited to escape Dr. Facilier in the laughing place rather than look for a lost trumpet. Mission BO is the best example of a sequel ride as it is based upon a property which has episodic adventures rather than being a self-contained fable. All of my issues with Mission BO are not in the setting of the attraction. So I'd be against setting Pinocchio or any fairy tale inspired attraction after the story is concluded. Its unnecessary and lacks conflict.

 

[mharrington]

Fantasyland and Adventureland do have overarching themes. Adventureland is the spirit of the exotic untamed jungles of the world. For rides to fit within the land, they need to fit that tone and feeling. Its why many object to Flying Carpets in WDW as it stands out as not really gelling with the real-world feeling of the land while Aladdin's Oasis fit it much better when it was operating as it felt like a real world bizarre and featured live actors. Fantasyland, as already stated, is European fairy tales. Dumbo and Casey Jr are the weak links thematically as they are not really European nor Fairy Tale-like, but they are presented in such simplicity and detachment from the source material that it is easy to overlook it and just focus on the cartoon elephant who flies just as Pooh's European roots are often forgotten which allows it to slip under the radar in Critter Country.

It just seems as though if the themes are loose, then there should be no theme at all. As for Critter Country, rumor has it that New Orleans Square may or may not take it over after Splash Mountain is redone (whenever that happens), and then Pooh will really stick out like a sore thumb. Come to think of it, Pooh is not really a fairy tale either.

As for after the film, I don't think its necessary. The ride exists right now as a representation of the film. If Fantasyland was changed to a Circus-themed land, the story would still fit as the theme of the ride is running away from home to join the theatre/circus and then the desire to return home. There's no need to change the story just as they didn't change the story for Peter Pan or Alice in Wonderland. Snow White had a different story until recently, not because of the land, but to make it a strong and focused attraction that sold the feeling of being chased by something scary. Toad is inspired by the film and presented as a chaotic madcap joyride rather than giving us recreations of story elements.

You could argue that a Circus theme could open up different ride ideas for a Pleasure Island themed attraction, but there's no reason the current ride couldn't also work as it currently is. In either case, there's no need to make the attraction a sequel. Sequel attractions don't really work in my opinion. Frozen Ever After is weak story-wise and is only saved by the animatronics and music and people would likely be more excited to escape Dr. Facilier in the laughing place rather than look for a lost trumpet. Mission BO is the best example of a sequel ride as it is based upon a property which has episodic adventures rather than being a self-contained fable. All of my issues with Mission BO are not in the setting of the attraction. So I'd be against setting Pinocchio or any fairy tale inspired attraction after the story is concluded. Its unnecessary and lacks conflict.

If the ride was featured in Storybook Circus, which I think should be a separate land from Fantasyland, I don't think it would be smart to simply duplicate the Disneyland ride. It should be altered to try and fit in a bit more, and that means doing away with the European village that is the exterior, queue and ending of the ride, so no Geppetto's workshop, as these all contradict the theme of an American circus, as I said.

 

[Professortango1]

It just seems as though if the themes are loose, then there should be no theme at all. As for Critter Country, rumor has it that New Orleans Square may or may not take it over after Splash Mountain is redone (whenever that happens), and then Pooh will really stick out like a sore thumb. Come to think of it, Pooh is not really a fairy tale either.



If the ride was featured in Storybook Circus, which I think should be a separate land from Fantasyland, I don't think it would be smart to simply duplicate the Disneyland ride. It should be altered to try and fit in a bit more, and that means doing away with the European village that is the exterior, queue and ending of the ride, so no Geppetto's workshop, as these all contradict the theme of an American circus, as I said.

The themes are what makes Disney so unique for so many years. It isn't just rides, they are stories and experiences grouped by a theme or feeling. Its why Princess and the Frog would feel weird going into Fantasyland despite being a fantasy story and animated.

If the land was different, I'm sure the show building and queue would fit the altered theme. The story ending at his home isn't an issue as its the end of the story they are telling. Toad ends in Hell, Pan ends in Neverland, Alice ends at the Tea Party and nobody has minded that the story doesn't transport us back to a medieval courtyard. That's what the unload station is for, a liminal space to transition us from the ride's story to the land again.