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Rumor Swan and Dolphin Tower Expansion - Height Balloon Testing by Fantasia Gardens

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Sorry about the thread bump, but just got some info on this. It will be a new hotel tower. It is NOT an extension of the Swan & Dolphin. That is basically all I know.
But according to @marni1971 , the land is owned by the Swolphin owners. So... what is meant by "not an extension of the Swan & Dolphin?" That it's not going to be called Swan and/or Dolphin? That's it's not going to be a Westin or a Sheraton but some other Marriott brand? That Marriott isn't involved at all?
 

NiarrNDisney

Well-Known Member
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Could it just have to do with site lines from the new CSR Tower addition?
 

NiarrNDisney

Well-Known Member

halltd

Well-Known Member
But according to @marni1971 , the land is owned by the Swolphin owners. So... what is meant by "not an extension of the Swan & Dolphin?" That it's not going to be called Swan and/or Dolphin? That's it's not going to be a Westin or a Sheraton but some other Marriott brand? That Marriott isn't involved at all?
@marni1971 , Where do you see this land as being Tishman? When I look on Orange County's website, only the tennis court comes up as Tishman. The rest shows as WDP&R. Unless we're talking where one of their pools is across the road.
 

TarzanRocked99-

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The tower (if built) will be an extension of the Swan although not physically connected. Think mostly suite product and a rooftop restaurant. It will be much smaller than the two existing buildings but nearly the same height as the Swan.

A lot is still being formalized
 

TarzanRocked99-

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
@marni1971 , Where do you see this land as being Tishman? When I look on Orange County's website, only the tennis court comes up as Tishman. The rest shows as WDP&R. Unless we're talking where one of their pools is across the road.
Tishman has that entire plot, they gave part of the land back to Disney in the 90's for the addition of Fantasia Gardens and at the same time constructed the GArden Pavillions which both entities share.
 

NiarrNDisney

Well-Known Member
Tishman has that entire plot, they gave part of the land back to Disney in the 90's for the addition of Fantasia Gardens and at the same time constructed the Garden Pavillions which both entities share.
The Garden Pavilions are such eyesores anyway that if they decide to rip them out and put the BAH there I would not have a problem with it!
 

abucha

Member
@marni1971 , Where do you see this land as being Tishman? When I look on Orange County's website, only the tennis court comes up as Tishman. The rest shows as WDP&R. Unless we're talking where one of their pools is across the road.
Tishman has that entire plot, they gave part of the land back to Disney in the 90's for the addition of Fantasia Gardens and at the same time constructed the GArden Pavillions which both entities share.
Orange County GIS and tax records show all of this land as being owned in fee simple by Disney. The hotel parcel was leased to Dolphin Hotel Associates in 1988. Tishman is one of the general partners. That is simply the Ground Lease. When you begin to get involved in building leases, sub-leases, licenses and franchises it would become even more complicated. Long story short - technically Disney owns all of that land, but leasehold rights exist. You would need to read the entire lease, amendments and sublease plus any additional agreements to ascertain who can build what and where.
 

halltd

Well-Known Member
Orange County GIS and tax records show all of this land as being owned in fee simple by Disney. The hotel parcel was leased to Dolphin Hotel Associates in 1988. Tishman is one of the general partners. That is simply the Ground Lease. When you begin to get involved in building leases, sub-leases, licenses and franchises it would become even more complicated. Long story short - technically Disney owns all of that land, but leasehold rights exist. You would need to read the entire lease, amendments and sublease plus any additional agreements to ascertain who can build what and where.
I'm just saying the mailing address for everything except for Fantasia Gardens is "Tishman". So, that lends me to believe that's the leased land. If it directs to the tax dept at WDW, which is how all of Disney's normal property is addressed, I tend to think this is not Tishman-leased land. Not saying your incorrect, but the pattern seems off. I'll trust those that seem to be in the know. I guess WDW could always decide to lease them more land as well. So if it's not theirs now, it could be soon.
 

abucha

Member
I tend to think this is not Tishman-leased land
From the current public records, that does appear to be correct if we are talking about that one parcel in particular. I was just speaking to the situation in general with Disney owning the property and "Dolphin Hotel Asso." and "Swan Hotel Asso." as leaseholders. For all I know, a new lease has already been executed and signed, but not put on record yet, or put on record with an entirely new leaseholder.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
So now that I've been playing with Google Earth Pro more, I thought I scope out where the height balloons were. Going by the various photos, here's the balloon placement:

upload_2017-7-8_2-26-36.png

At least, generally. The wind was moving them around.

This does lend credence to what @marni1971 and @TarzanRocked99- were saying about a tight fit for a tower.

So, let's drop a tower in...

upload_2017-7-8_2-29-10.png

The footprint of the tower (without the porch) is 1.1 acres. The footprint of the Swan is 1.3 acres. Theoretically, if it's taller than the Swan, it would have just about as many rooms as the Swan... unless it's going to be a luxe niche brand of Marriott with large suites as I read on a Twitter post from a Marriott insider. But, things change, brands could change, footprint could change, roadways could change, OR... nothing happens.
 
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