Interesting Disney Business Article Today

dreamscometrue

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Apologies if this has been posted already.

I read this article on a Forbes.com blog and found it interesting because I had no idea of the relative expenditures and profits of each of the Disney divisions.

I found this paragraph interesting. The link follow.

It is interesting to note that Disney’s second highest spend area, parks & resorts, contributes relatively minor value to the company’s total stock value. Due to high capital spending, expected to increase further over the coming years, the cash profits from this division are very low. Does it make sense for Disney to continue to direct a significant portion of its spending to its parks & resorts business? Rather than being a pure profit generator, this business helps Disney to engage its customer base, developing brand loyalty and enhancing its brand name.

http://blogs.forbes.com/greatspecul...oesnt-yield-much-meat/?boxes=Homepagechannels
 

wolf359

Well-Known Member
Well, it certainly seems like this is at odds with the general notion around here that Disney is rolling in so much cash there is no logical reason they aren't doing "_____" to make the parks more to their personal liking other than greed and mismanagement. Perhaps it really is true that running and maintaining the theme parks is harder, more expensive, and less profitable than the typical armchair Imagineer is likely to admit...
 

dreamscometrue

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Well, it certainly seems like this is at odds with the general notion around here that Disney is rolling in so much cash there is no logical reason they aren't doing "_____" to make the parks more to their personal liking other than greed and mismanagement. Perhaps it really is true that running and maintaining the theme parks is harder, more expensive, and less profitable than the typical armchair Imagineer is likely to admit...

I agree wholeheartedly.

I know that park pass rates have increased (as have my dry cleaning rates, utility rates, movie prices and everything else I pay), but it's not realistic to expect constant expansion or creation of $80 million E-ticket attractions annually.

I'm actually amazed that WDW can pay 62,200 cast members, maintain and run all the resorts, buses, monorails, boats, and do all (or most of :)) the maintainance necessary to run 4 theme parks, 2 water parks, DD, the recreation, etc. I'm actually happy and impressed with the the growth and changes. Love 'em or hate 'em, the recent past has seen (or will soon see) the addition of Toy Story Mania, The American Idol Experience, Via Napoli, La Hacienda de San Angel, Star Tours 2, The Fantasyland Expansion, The Art of Animation Resort, Hyperion Wharf...all of these likely costing a few hundred million dollars. Add to that more minor additions (Kim Possible), refurbishments (SSE, SM, HM) and changes (Karamelle-Kuche, Finding Nemo:The Musical, Stormstruck, Sum Of All Thrills) and I like the change and growth.

Sometimes those of us who visit relatively often forget all the changes in relatively recent years. We have friends who last visited in late 2005 and again near the end of 2010. We sat down to look at trip photos and talked about all the 'new' things for them. When we compared park brochures from their 2 trips and I noted a number of other changes, refurbs, etc. the list was quite long and surprised even me.

No, WDW doesn't generate much profit at all, but I believe for the most part, it is maintaining Walt Disney's expression of desire for Disneyland...to be clean, well maintained family places and to always be changing and growing.
 

GrumpyFan

Well-Known Member
Interesting article. And, not something I would have thought about, but it makes sense. It costs a lot to run a theme park, with labor and maintenance, and with new sponsors few and far between these days, I guess there is a thin profit line after all is said and done.
 

hpyhnt 1000

Well-Known Member
It is interesting to note that Disney’s second highest spend area, parks & resorts, contributes relatively minor value to the company’s total stock value. Due to high capital spending, expected to increase further over the coming years, the cash profits from this division are very low. Does it make sense for Disney to continue to direct a significant portion of its spending to its parks & resorts business? Rather than being a pure profit generator, this business helps Disney to engage its customer base, developing brand loyalty and enhancing its brand name.

Parks and Resorts has always been a lower profit base for the company when compared to its other entities; thats fairly well known. Its the second part of that statement, the part about brand loyalty and enhancing the company name, where the Parks and Resorts division reaps dividends for the company, more so than any other segment.

And also, lets keep in mind that Parks and Resort still recorded a net profit of $1.31 billion last fiscal year despite the lingering effects of one of the worst recesssions since the Great Depression. While its per dollar return may not be as great as some of the other divisions, Parks and Resorts is still responsible for a significant portion of the Walt Disney Company's profits.

http://www.travelweekly.com/article3_ektid224372.aspx
 

fosse76

Well-Known Member
Parks and Resorts has always been a lower profit base for the company when compared to its other entities; thats fairly well known. Its the second part of that statement, the part about brand loyalty and enhancing the company name, where the Parks and Resorts division reaps dividends for the company, more so than any other segment.

And also, lets keep in mind that Parks and Resort still recorded a net profit of $1.31 billion last fiscal year despite the lingering effects of one of the worst recesssions since the Great Depression. While its per dollar return may not be as great as some of the other divisions, Parks and Resorts is still responsible for a significant portions of the Walt Disney Company's profits.

http://www.travelweekly.com/article3_ektid224372.aspx

You beat me to it! And also, Disney has exapanded significantly in the past 10 years, so the profits, in comparison, were destined to be smaller when compared to all the divisions. But let's not forget, it's not as if the parks are barely profitable...just less profitable (as alluded to in a post above, it's because of the high costs with running 8 parks and 30+ hotels) than those divisions.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
The 'profit' numbers are often misleading because new tech, reinvestment etc comes out of any profit normally.

That said, there is so much Disney can do to cut costs but enhance the visitor experience at the same time.

The FLE seems geared towards that strategy as does NextGen potentially.
 

inluvwithbeast

New Member
Thanks guys. Good discussion! As someone who wants to get involved in the theme park industry, I love reading about the business side of Parks Ops.
 

alphac2005

Well-Known Member
And also, lets keep in mind that Parks and Resort still recorded a net profit of $1.31 billion last fiscal year despite the lingering effects of one of the worst recesssions since the Great Depression. While its per dollar return may not be as great as some of the other divisions, Parks and Resorts is still responsible for a significant portion of the Walt Disney Company's profits.

What you've said in quite important. What people have to understand in the article is that the parks are highly profitable, however, the company has spent a large amount of capital the past few business years in the parks mainly due to their poor choices to begin with (i.e. the underdevelopment and simply garbage of DCA) and the division becomes much less profitable over the next few years because they have to recoup that investment.

It's very misleading to think that the parks are somehow an arm of the company that barely makes a profit. What the article doesn't go into is that for the majority of the past two decades, it's been the theme park division that has bailed out the company and has been the profit center. Their margins are quite impressive, actually.

For 2009, the parks and resorts took in about 10.7 billion dollars and had a 1.3 billion dollar profit. They're margin is roughly 10%, which isn't spectacular, but based on the amount of revenue, they turn it into a large profit. All in the environment of one the worst recessions in a century. They'll be just fine. :)

This article is simply taking the large funds being invested and showing that their bottom line is hit in that division over the next few years absorbing the capital outlay.
 

minniemickeyfan

Well-Known Member
For those interested in this type of information you can read Disney's annual report which gives tons of insight like this article mentions. I read them all for school projects in Finance.
go to www.sec.gov, click on "Search for company filings", then click the top link where you can search by ticker symbol, of course enter "DIS" and up will come all of its reports. The 10-K reports are its annual reports. There is a lot of detailed information sorted by areas of the company.
 

niteobsrvr

Well-Known Member
I think the analysis is very interesting. And while I agree that net income of over 1 billion looks pretty good to those of us armchair types, i believe it may be necessary to break the picture down a bit.

A big clue as to what is going on with Parks and Resorts was Disney's initial omission of attendance data broken down by park. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/the-daily-disney/os-disney-parks-attendance-20101207,0,6726204.story
When they finally did respond to requests, we find that while All of the other parks saw significant attendance gains, Walt Disney World likely did not based on other anecdotal data.

Based on that information, I would suspect that the operating ratio in Orlando was much lower that what past experience had been. It seems that overall the parks division may earn 13 cents for every dollar guests spend, I would hazard a guess that the Orlando operation may be half that at best. If that operating ratio is close to 5%, as suspected, the Florida operation is producing about as well as most transportation companies have historically.

Every expenditure is checked and double checked before authorized. Most spending seems to be give the green light if it can offset an expense somewhere else but that doesn't mean it necessarily improves the over all guest experience.

The past two decades Disney was on a spending spree. More of the property is developed now than ever before. With all that development comes the expense of maintenance and redevelopment when the guests become tired or bored for a case in point look at Pleasure Island. There is also the increased labor cost as each new addition required thousands of employees who add to the payroll and benefit categories. You also have increased lawsuits and other less noticeable expenses. Additionally, the cost of energy to run everything from the pretty lights to the busses has gone up considerably.

The guests are spending less, significantly less. Disney used to shy away form discounting but not anymore. They feared it would cheapen their product and lead to difficulty in enacting price increases as they did steadily to offset the spending. Now discounts are everywhere, all the time, to one degree or another.

Another tell tale sign is the Florida annual pass monthly payment plan. They offered it to California residents who visited Disneyland in order to attract a segment of the locals who found the upfront cost too high to purchase a pass. Initially, they weren't concerned until they realized they were missing a segment of guests who would otherwise come to visit and spend more money. They didn't feel the need to do that in Florida at the same time because attendance was robust. Now, here we are some time later and the deal is on for Florida because they need to attract more locals and their pocketbooks.

I appears that Disney has been trying to reign in the costs by outsourcing jobs that guests notice less. The One Disney initiative was a method of removing redundant staffing and obtain more productivity form the ones that remain. They laid off or demoted any number of people in the last management shake up in oder to shore up the bottom line and yet it still may not be enough if people don't start spending at pre-2008 levels again. It also makes any annual price increases less likely based on "our guests continue to tell us they feel they are getting a great value for their dollar". Any price increase is mostly symbolic anyway as many guests don't pay the one day price.

There is concern on everyones face regarding their future at Disney. The hourly cast have a contract dispute that will likely end with them not getting what they want (relevancy of their demands is immaterial to this discussion). Managers get shuffled back and forth form their previous hourly roles to Temporary Assignments and back again until it becomes absolutely necessary to fill a vacancies. Recruitment of new entry level managers from the rank and file has been minimal in the past year. The applicant pools for most areas have not been depleted yet from the last go around. Many positions are filled by Management Interns to hold down costs. Hourly cast positions go unfilled as attrition occurs.

I imagine over the next several years we may see the following changes:

Additional layoffs of office and technical people as jobs are outsourced.

Possible layoffs of management in a new round of streamlining and cost cutting.

The addition of more operating partners so that some of the expense of such operations is removed from the Disney bottom line.

The outsourcing of some of the resorts to flagship Hotel brands in much the same way the Swan and Dolphin work but with better for Disney revenue sharing agreements.

The transportation network, busses, monorails and watercraft being handed over to Reedy Creek to create a more integrated and cost effective transportation model for the property.

These are just some of the possibilities.

In closing, it appears that Walt Disney World may have hit a price point that has diminishing returns. There also may be a saturation occurring due to the amount of development. Walt Disney World, by itself as it has been run for 40 years, may be on the verge of an operating loss without necessary cost reductions and structure changes.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Apologies if this has been posted already.

I read this article on a Forbes.com blog and found it interesting because I had no idea of the relative expenditures and profits of each of the Disney divisions.

I found this paragraph interesting. The link follow.

It is interesting to note that Disney’s second highest spend area, parks & resorts, contributes relatively minor value to the company’s total stock value. Due to high capital spending, expected to increase further over the coming years, the cash profits from this division are very low. Does it make sense for Disney to continue to direct a significant portion of its spending to its parks & resorts business? Rather than being a pure profit generator, this business helps Disney to engage its customer base, developing brand loyalty and enhancing its brand name.

http://blogs.forbes.com/greatspecul...oesnt-yield-much-meat/?boxes=Homepagechannels

The higher rate of spending for the parks can be with the almost 2 billion spent on the newest ships along with the billion spent on fixing dca and the costs will the newest parks in the far east.

It is misleading by having some costs and capital expenditures in one graph and not having actual income or revenue in the other. Estimated value to stock is misleading. Forbes is only good at making the richest people list, the rest of their reporting is about as good as your local paper.
 

dobball23

New Member
Parks Develop Loyalty

Like some others have mentioned, one item that is not factored into the pure dollars and cents is the loyalty and fandom the parks generate. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I would not have spent money in other areas of the Disney company (movies, music, musicals, etc.) if I had never visited Walt Disney World.

I did not know a lot about Disney (the overall company) until 2006 when I decided to make my first trip to WDW (in 2007). At that point I started doing TONS of research and planning and fell in love with all things Disney. Without the parks I can guarantee that NEVER would have happened. Disney gained a life-long fan (and my money) just because of the parks.

Hopefully Disney realizes that its parks end up helping the bottom lines in some of its other areas.
 

alphac2005

Well-Known Member
The guests are spending less, significantly less. Disney used to shy away form discounting but not anymore. They feared it would cheapen their product and lead to difficulty in enacting price increases as they did steadily to offset the spending. Now discounts are everywhere, all the time, to one degree or another.

Another tell tale sign is the Florida annual pass monthly payment plan. They offered it to California residents who visited Disneyland in order to attract a segment of the locals who found the upfront cost too high to purchase a pass. Initially, they weren't concerned until they realized they were missing a segment of guests who would otherwise come to visit and spend more money. They didn't feel the need to do that in Florida at the same time because attendance was robust. Now, here we are some time later and the deal is on for Florida because they need to attract more locals and their pocketbooks.

You bring up two interesting points and having been in businsess for quite some time, I enjoy the Disney business chatter. Disney has helped create part of the problem with their pricing. They took their standard business model of park tickets and hotel rooms as two separate items and blew it up a few years back by adding the dining plan and combining all the options, if wanted. In doing so, standard daily tickets and food options throughout the property have skyrocketed making a WDW significantly less desirable to the non major Disney fan base. The packages were designed to improve their profit margins, but they're becoming a business now dependent of offering "deals," which is bad omen for business.

Additionally, what's not being spoken of is their large increase in room rates. Although Disney is discounting rooms now with their promotions, room rates have absolutely skyrocketed the past half decade. Not only have the base rates gone up significantly, they've added seasonal tiers, weekday and weekend rates, while although that was standard in the hotel industry, was new to Disney and represents a significant cost increase to the consumer. Let alone food offerings, merchandise costs, and ticketing increases. The consumer doesn't see nearly the value in Disney as they did before.

As for the APs, I disagree. I believe that the company finally saw the loss of business by their ignorance towards the residents of Florida. WDW has several hundred thousand APs, whereas Disneyland is around a million plus. They've been fools for years ignoring the local market, as the suits only looked at the property as a vacation spot, ignoring the local market. Having lived in Orlando for several years, up until the past few years, Disney's involvement in Central Florida involved television commercials and some charitable contributions. Their involvement has become much more substantial over the past few years from their substantial increase in community development and charity to sponsorships including the Amway Center.

Lets also not forget that if you have a family, four hundred dollars for an annual pass is not an attractive price, even if you're doing well. Offering a payment plan for what could be $1600 or $2000 in APs that a resident might not have even considered before is a much better way to digest the cost. Now as for the California example, if there was a segment that didn't realize the prices in the park, that's pure ignorance. Clearly, Disney's AP target wouldn't necessarily be Central Florida, but rather to the south where there are many areas of high disposable income. Get people to come up from south Florida for a few more days a year and spend additional money in the hotels, food, etc. while actually making more money on them by the purchase of the AP vs. a multiday ticket.

It shows me that they clearly know at this point that they're stuck due to many factors with an attendance ceiling and they've recognized that in their own backyard there's a large pool of customers that can be tapped into.
 

montyz81

Well-Known Member
I'm actually amazed that WDW can pay 62,200 cast members, maintain and run all the resorts, buses, monorails, boats, and do all (or most of :)) the maintainance necessary to run 4 theme parks, 2 water parks, DD, the recreation, etc.

Errr, Guess again, Try 14 theme parks. 2 in Calf, 2 in Tokyo, 6 (2 water parks are theme parks) in Fl, 2 in Paris, 1 in Hong Kong, 1 in Shanghai.
 

DVCOwner

A Long Time DVC Member
Like some others have mentioned, one item that is not factored into the pure dollars and cents is the loyalty and fandom the parks generate. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I would not have spent money in other areas of the Disney company (movies, music, musicals, etc.) if I had never visited Walt Disney World.

I did not know a lot about Disney (the overall company) until 2006 when I decided to make my first trip to WDW (in 2007). At that point I started doing TONS of research and planning and fell in love with all things Disney. Without the parks I can guarantee that NEVER would have happened. Disney gained a life-long fan (and my money) just because of the parks.

Hopefully Disney realizes that its parks end up helping the bottom lines in some of its other areas.

How you know why Disney wants a park in mainland China. The Shanghai Disney land will expose millions of new people to Disney and all things Disney. Disney TV in China (including ABC and ESPN) is the real goal of the company in China.

One other item to remember that the best return on investment that Disney has going right now is ESPN. That is why you are seeing more of ESPN at Walt Disney World.
 

niteobsrvr

Well-Known Member
Errr, Guess again, Try 14 theme parks. 2 in Calf, 2 in Tokyo, 6 (2 water parks are theme parks) in Fl, 2 in Paris, 1 in Hong Kong, 1 in Shanghai.

Disney operates Tokyo as a franchise collecting payments to refelct the licensing of their intellectual property. They do not own them at all. When Disney speaks of their Parks and Resorts, Tokyo is often excluded from the equation.

I am not sure at this point that there is a clear understanding of how Shanghai will be handled. WIll it be more like Tokyo or wholly owned by Disney?
 

niteobsrvr

Well-Known Member
As for the APs, I disagree. I believe that the company finally saw the loss of business by their ignorance towards the residents of Florida. WDW has several hundred thousand APs, whereas Disneyland is around a million plus. They've been fools for years ignoring the local market, as the suits only looked at the property as a vacation spot, ignoring the local market. Having lived in Orlando for several years, up until the past few years, Disney's involvement in Central Florida involved television commercials and some charitable contributions. Their involvement has become much more substantial over the past few years from their substantial increase in community development and charity to sponsorships including the Amway Center.

Your point is well taken. I do remember back when the Disneyland pay option was first offered there was some implication by management that attendance was increasing every year at WDW so there was no real need to offer such a "deal" at the Florida Parks.

You are right about the large untapped pool of potential customers and making the cost for a family of 4 more inviting. But, you have to ask what changed and why now? Flat or maginally increasing attendance would definitely be a game changing statistic.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Your point is well taken. I do remember back when the Disneyland pay option was first offered there was some implication by management that attendance was increasing every year at WDW so there was no real need to offer such a "deal" at the Florida Parks.

You are right about the large untapped pool of potential customers and making the cost for a family of 4 more inviting. But, you have to ask what changed and why now? Flat or maginally increasing attendance would definitely be a game changing statistic.

Disney realized that in the recession people are going to be traveling closer to home.
 

DocMcHulk

Well-Known Member
Perhaps it really is true that running and maintaining the theme parks is harder, more expensive, and less profitable than the typical armchair Imagineer is likely to admit...

This is the argument I have been saying for a long time as to why a 5th Gate is a LONG LONG way off.
 

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