Anaheim GardenWalk For Sale

Disney Irish

Premium Member
The bigger issue is how to get guests from Mickey and Friends parking structure to the third park. This lot will be expanded by 6,300 spaces to a total of 16,000+ spaces.

Any third park would include a parking structure on that side of the resort. However once inside the resort there will likely be a transportation method to get to the third park. Now what that looks like will be anyone's guess.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
Presumably anyone parking on the western edge of the property would not be going to any future development on Katella. I would assume those guests would be directed to park at the Eastern Gateway garage.
This would be impossible since there’s a parking shortage, the Eastern Gateway garage will have a bridge to the esplanade and would be getting guests primarily driving north of the 5 Fwy, park hopping is still a feature of theme park tickets. Unless they figure out the transportation, it’s a disaster waiting to happen.
 

DLR92

Well-Known Member
Some point in time, Disney will relook into the east end bought property. I am sure Eastern Gateway will be revive again some time later. Right now the city and Disney and most of the local business around it are not on good terms. Until their relationship improves, interest of utilizing the own land on the opposite end will pop up again.

With interest of luxury hotel brand coming to the mall, and all the land that is already developed, there is no benefit of buying it. Maybe holding it until land value increase and help turn that mall around for bigger profit. But that not Disney specialty.
 
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D

Deleted member 107043

This would be impossible since there’s a parking shortage, the Eastern Gateway garage will have a bridge to the esplanade and would be getting guests primarily driving north of the 5 Fwy, park hopping is still a feature of theme park tickets. Unless they figure out the transportation, it’s a disaster waiting to happen.

Look it’s all speculation at this point. If, and that’s a huge IF, a third park is built, Disney, local government, and the State would all weigh in on the final transportation infrastructure plan to/from any eastern development. Frankly I see no need to fret about it because it’s very unlikely that any of our amateur imagineering plans will see the light of day since Disney apparently has little appetite for massive Resort infrastructure and amenities expansion/investment in Anaheim.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Actually, since the Pumbaa Structure has been on the plans since the 1990's much of the freeway access has already been designed and built for I-5 access. The NB I-5 carpool exit is right at the planned entrance to the Pumbaa lot. The city and Caltrans had preliminary plans worked up as part of the original Eastern Gateway application, and not much needed to be done, mainly the Clementine/Disney Way Intersection.

Also, the corner of Harbor and Manchester was widened in the last few years, in preparation of the road becoming more of a main thoroughfare.

Of course, the Toy Story Lot and the Katella CM lot never got the same attention. There was a reworking of the traffic lights to easy traffic, and some small work on the intersection of Harbor and Convention Way (Toy Story Entrance). And since it is only temporarily permitted for parking, nothing more is planned. If Disney wants to do anything on that section of property owned, the new zoning would require a traffic study, and then decisions of what would need to be done, and who pays for it, more than likely a shared system, Disney paying for some of it, TOT taxes allocated for another part, the Convention Center also would chip in, as its traffic would be improved. Also the city would apply for Federal and State transportation grants.

But right now, Disney is focused on the Western improvements, and there are minor issues that have to be worked out on Disneyland Drive, but they are just piggybacking on the current I-5 access to/from the I-5. No traffic study is required, since it was addressed with the DLR plan approved in the 1990's.

But any structure on the Ball CM lot and/or Katella CM lot would require a full traffic study.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
Look it’s all speculation at this point. If, and that’s a huge IF, a third park is built, Disney, local government, and the State would all weigh in on the final transportation infrastructure plan to/from any eastern development. Frankly I see no need to fret about it because it’s very unlikely that any of our amateur imagineering plans will see the light of day since Disney apparently has little appetite for massive Resort infrastructure and amenities expansion/investment in Anaheim.
Disney might be slow and measured when it comes to infrastructure spending in Anaheim, but the evidence is they are spending billions. So it’s incorrect they have little appetite. Anaheim must behave like any other city by juicing up pent up spending by loosening up the tax incentives. Anaheim City Council and Mayor are the worse.

Anyways, speculation is fun. What’s wrong with it. I see a scenario where Disney doesn’t have to buy AGW to gain access to its infrastructure. Just lease the abandoned second floor. Build a bridge from the Eastern Gateway to the second floor and another bridge to the third park. Build a nice walkway with additional stores and ticket booths.

A people mover should be considered from Mickey and Friends to the Eastern Gateway parking as direct transportation. So partial walking and partial mass transit.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
The biggest issue with People Movers is capacity. Here is one of the largest operating systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LINK_Train

But it's maximum capacity is only 2,500 people per hour, and Disney has stated it currently needs about 12,000 per hour for the Pumbaa Structure and walking guests during the peak opening, and after fireworks crowds. So alas, the People Mover idea is currently DOA. The second issue is costs, and who will pay for it.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

Disney might be slow and measured when it comes to infrastructure spending in Anaheim, but the evidence is they are spending billions. So it’s incorrect they have little appetite.

Compared to what though? What P&R is doing in Anaheim is business as usual compared to the extravagant investments and creative innovation being developed for Florida and China. Nothing I've seen so far looks like an appetite for growth in Anaheim to me, certainly not the kind of appetite that suggests a third park is on the horizon.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
The biggest issue with People Movers is capacity. Here is one of the largest operating systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LINK_Train

But it's maximum capacity is only 2,500 people per hour, and Disney has stated it currently needs about 12,000 per hour for the Pumbaa Structure and walking guests during the peak opening, and after fireworks crowds. So alas, the People Mover idea is currently DOA. The second issue is costs, and who will pay for it.
It shouldn’t be hard to double or triple it’s capacity. Each train has 7 cars that hold 25
Passengers each. 175 passengers per train. That’s inadequate. Then again, Disney shortchanged capacity for its Skyline to 10 passengers per gondola. The vast majority of guests will be at Disneyland and DCA. The guests to the third park will disperse and many will walk. I also shake my head when I see only 2 elevators at Mickey and Friends parking structure that has 10,000 parking spaces.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
Compared to what though? What P&R is doing in Anaheim is business as usual compared to the extravagant investments and creative innovation being developed for Florida and China. Nothing I've seen so far looks like an appetite for growth in Anaheim to me, certainly not the kind of appetite that suggests a third park is on the horizon.
Disneyland Resort needs a third park when Disney World needs a fifth park. Not just yet. The parks needs to flesh out it’s current capacity and every single Disney park has this problem. China has one park each. Hong Kong needs more attractions. They are already starved like DCA.

Florida is ramping up every single park, which remained stagnant for decades. That why total attraction count is the same for the 4 Florida parks compared with the 2 Anaheim Parks.

Disney learned to not be stingy at the Shanghai park. The upgrades at Anaheim are not stingy, but you can criticize Pixar Pier as the exception. Anyways, the future is bright.
 

FerretAfros

Well-Known Member
The biggest issue with People Movers is capacity. Here is one of the largest operating systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LINK_Train

But it's maximum capacity is only 2,500 people per hour, and Disney has stated it currently needs about 12,000 per hour for the Pumbaa Structure and walking guests during the peak opening, and after fireworks crowds. So alas, the People Mover idea is currently DOA. The second issue is costs, and who will pay for it.
Short of a full-scale heavy-rail system (like an urban subway, with station platforms hundreds of feet long), I'm not sure there's any system out there that could even approach 12,000 passengers per hour. And even heavy-rail would struggle to meet that number, considering that all passengers would be boarding and alighting together, rather than trickling in and out over several stations, leading to longer dwell times in the stations

But why does the number need to be that high? The Pumbaa garage was only supposed to have 6,800 parking spaces. Assuming an average of 3 passengers per car (which is unrealistically high with DLR's AP base), that's 20,400 people at maximum capacity. Do 60% of them really need to arrive or leave in a single hour when the garage is at peak capacity?

Consider the trams that are being used at Mickey & Friends. They're 7 cars long, with 6 rows per car; assuming 4 passengers per row, that's 168 passengers per tram. Being generous and assuming they can dispatch a tram every 5 minutes (though they're never that frequent in reality), that's 3,360 passengers per hour. All this at a parking structure with 10,250 spaces that they're adding another 6,500 to, with no transportation improvements in the pipeline.

I'm not sure where the 12,000 number came from, but it sounds like something that Disney created in order to justify not building a transportation link, rather than anything based on anticipated demand. As someone who works in transit design, that number is laughably high.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
The main issue is the time it takes to load.

Let's say 15,000 in a hour to match peak loading, that is 250 per minute. Currently we are looking at about 2 minutes to load a train, such as a public trolley or metro rail system. So you would need at least multiple load and unload platforms.

Currently, a peak hour can go over 40,000 if Disney closes both parks at the same time. Now Disney tries to stagger ending times of main events, such as Fireworks and World of Color, to lower that number. Currently, you have 2 exit routes, to the East (Toy Story Shuttles, the ART routes, other shuttles, taxis and rideshare, plus walking) and West (M&F Trams, plus walking through DtD.

Also, the costs are high, and the city won't help in running it, you might get some small public right of way rights to allow bridge/track supports, but that is it. Disney would have to build it, then cover the costs of operations. And what does Disney get? They more than likely wouldn't charge to ride it, so it is clearly a money losing option, and for what gain?
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
The 12,000 comes from the design of the original Eastern Gateway bridge, which takes into account let alone Pumbaa, but also all the folks that would use the Transportation Hub, plus those who walk from their Hotels.

The city would require a new project to minimize the impact on public sidewalks and roads, so you can't just say they would walk a few blocks. The city would require multiple pedestrian bridges to be built for approval of the project. And once again, Disney internally would -ask, what benefit do we get for building these bridges, which would be public right a ways to access non-Disney businesses.

As for the M&F trams, if the system runs at maximum capacity of 4 load/unload platforms, they can get a tram off about one a minute. Of course, Disney runs as low as possible, as they much prefer to have folks walk through DtD.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
With the new parking structure at Mickey and Friends, less guests will use the Eastern Gateway Those using the Eastern Gateway will be partially directed to the third park. The 12,000 will no longer be relevant.

I can see Disney reducing the size of the bridge so Disney can install a separate entrance on Harbor for the security checkpoints. Alternatively, Disney has more time to purchase another hotel property to add more access points.

The high cost of people movers suggest Disney might just buy advanced busses that can cross city streets.
 

FerretAfros

Well-Known Member
The main issue is the time it takes to load.

Let's say 15,000 in a hour to match peak loading, that is 250 per minute. Currently we are looking at about 2 minutes to load a train, such as a public trolley or metro rail system. So you would need at least multiple load and unload platforms.

Currently, a peak hour can go over 40,000 if Disney closes both parks at the same time. Now Disney tries to stagger ending times of main events, such as Fireworks and World of Color, to lower that number. Currently, you have 2 exit routes, to the East (Toy Story Shuttles, the ART routes, other shuttles, taxis and rideshare, plus walking) and West (M&F Trams, plus walking through DtD.
I agree that loading is the bottleneck and always will be. More people can fit on longer trains, but it also takes people longer to walk to the far end of a longer platform. Considering the passenger volumes, trains would dispatch in less time than it would take to wait for the next train, so there would be no incentive to walk to the far end

This is where a system like a gondola or PeopleMover with larger cars would excel, dispatching groups of 30-40 people every few seconds. This would also reduce the surges of arriving guests at the other end, and would help to smooth out guest flow considerably. If a gondola doesn't enough capacity on its own, they're cheap enough (less than 1/4 the cost of other fixed-guideway systems) that 2 parallel systems could easily be built, allowing off-peak closures of one for cost savings and maintenance
Also, the costs are high, and the city won't help in running it, you might get some small public right of way rights to allow bridge/track supports, but that is it. Disney would have to build it, then cover the costs of operations. And what does Disney get? They more than likely wouldn't charge to ride it, so it is clearly a money losing option, and for what gain?
Sorry, I simply don't buy this excuse. They're able to afford running a transportation system to their existing parking structure and another system to their existing far-flung parking lot, so why is it any different for this new garage? Heck, in Florida, they manage just fine with the world's busiest theme park that's more than a mile from its parking lot and has a large lake in the way.

Disney is charging $20 per car to park, and well over $100 per day to visit their theme parks. They can afford to run a transportation system connecting the two just fine. Yes, it's more expensive than forcing everybody to walk, but that doesn't mean that it's an undue burden on Disney. If Disney thinks that getting me from their parking lot to their theme park to buy their food and merchandise is too expensive, I have no problem taking my vacation dollars elsewhere
The 12,000 comes from the design of the original Eastern Gateway bridge, which takes into account let alone Pumbaa, but also all the folks that would use the Transportation Hub, plus those who walk from their Hotels.

The city would require a new project to minimize the impact on public sidewalks and roads, so you can't just say they would walk a few blocks. The city would require multiple pedestrian bridges to be built for approval of the project. And once again, Disney internally would -ask, what benefit do we get for building these bridges, which would be public right a ways to access non-Disney businesses.
The city would require multiple pedestrian bridges for a transportation system that dumps people in the Eastern Gateway, but wouldn't require any for a pedestrian route that dumps them there? Regardless of how people arrive at that point, I would think that they would need to be distributed throughout the surrounding area in a similar manner. Regardless of the mode people take from the parks to the Gateway, the Gateway isn't their final destination; similar solutions should be required for distributing guests either way
As for the M&F trams, if the system runs at maximum capacity of 4 load/unload platforms, they can get a tram off about one a minute. Of course, Disney runs as low as possible, as they much prefer to have folks walk through DtD.
Do they plan to do this on a regular basis in the future? I don't think I've ever seen more than 3 platforms in use at a time, even during peak-of-the-peak periods. Even so, that would only get the tram capacity up to around that coveted 12,000 mark, which using Disney's math seems inadequate for a 16,000+ space garage

And I've never seen many people walk through DTD, simply because the path isn't terribly clear. It was easier back when the side path behind Wetzel's Pretzels was viable, but the new security measures force everybody to take the longer and less clear route. If there is any conscious effort to drive pedestrian traffic through there, why is there no wayfinding signage to direct people? And why isn't the northern half of the route through the parking lots more pedestrian-friendly? Sorry, but I don't buy it. There may be any number of reasons that they don't run more trams, but encouraging DTD foot traffic isn't a major factor
 
D

Deleted member 107043

Disney is charging $20 per car to park, and well over $100 per day to visit their theme parks. They can afford to run a transportation system connecting the two just fine. Yes, it's more expensive than forcing everybody to walk, but that doesn't mean that it's an undue burden on Disney. If Disney thinks that getting me from their parking lot to their theme park to buy their food and merchandise is too expensive, I have no problem taking my vacation dollars elsewhere

Boom. And the fact that Disney continues to show literally no interest in drafting any proposals for Anaheim beyond the most basic growth and expansion (SW:GE being the exception) is proof that DLR is not at the top of its list of priorities.
 

Rich T

Well-Known Member
Remembering the days before DCA and Downtown Disney when there was just one massive parking lot... And even though it was a clear and easy walk to the park gate, Disney ran trams. Because it made guests feel happy and welcome. Because Disney knew you had to spend money to make money.
 

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