News Two new solar arrays coming online in 2023 will double Walt Disney World's solar capability

GimpYancIent

Well-Known Member
Hydrogen is an energy storage medium, not an energy source (at least on earth). You can't drill for hydrogen, it has to be made from either a hydrocarbon (usually natural gas) or split from water which takes a lot of electricity.

The storage isn't that big of a deal. It's the making that is the issue. Even on vehicle storage isn't that big of a deal. I know people always bring up the Hindenburg or Challenger but hydrogen isn't more dangerous to drive around with than propane or LNG. In both of those cases disasters, there was just a big fire but not really a powerful explosion. Also, both cases involved enormous amounts of hydrogen, FAR more than would be stored onboard and vehicle.
Fair to question combustibility and storage. Thus far nothing indicates greater risks than with gasoline or any other petroleum based fuel, it comes down to proper handling (that human safety factor). Also lately manufacturers of EV's and hybrids have been advising customers to not park their vehicles in enclosed spaces i.e. garages during charging due to risk of the batteries bursting into flames. The hazards just keep on coming!
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
Fair to question combustibility and storage. Thus far nothing indicates greater risks than with gasoline or any other petroleum based fuel, it comes down to proper handling (that human safety factor). Also lately manufacturers of EV's and hybrids have been advising customers to not park their vehicles in enclosed spaces i.e. garages during charging due to risk of the batteries bursting into flames. The hazards just keep on coming!
A couple of years ago, a Tesla burst into flames after losing control and hitting a tree near my house. The occupant was killed due to the fire. It started raging so quickly that nobody could get the driver out. Lithium Ion batteries are highly flammable.

Hydrogen is probably less dangerous than gasoline overall. If you have a gasoline leak in the garage, it will puddle on the floor where it could be ignited. A hydrogen leak would dissipate pretty quickly since it will be able to get through all gaps and garage safety vents easily. There should be a much shorter time where there is a possibility of ignition.
 

TikibirdLand

Well-Known Member
We could reduce energy use by not littering the land with garbage boxes of buildings.
We're already trashing GoTG? We haven't even rode it yet! 🤣
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Abandon the whole place and let the gators have it, good for CO2 sequestration.....
I’m not talking about Walt Disney World. I’m talking about the vast majority of buildings in the use. The places we live and work. We value cheap and disposable over considered and crafted. Simple things like how a building is placed can help reduce energy usage.
 

GimpYancIent

Well-Known Member
I’m not talking about Walt Disney World. I’m talking about the vast majority of buildings in the use. The places we live and work. We value cheap and disposable over considered and crafted. Simple things like how a building is placed can help reduce energy usage.
Office buildings are an interesting issue because of the extensive use of glass yet minimal windows that can be opened. Allegedly all the glass allows for more natural light reducing the need for unnatural light, but combine the greenhouse effect with lack of natural air circulation necessitating heavy reliance on HVAC it's a loose / loose as far as energy savings.
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
I’m not talking about Walt Disney World. I’m talking about the vast majority of buildings in the use. The places we live and work. We value cheap and disposable over considered and crafted. Simple things like how a building is placed can help reduce energy usage.
We value Walmart, cheap is good right? and if I can get double on my plate I must be getting value right?
 

Dutch Inn '76

Well-Known Member
Wind and solar are a waste of time - and they're even bad for the environment! We should be riding nuclear as a supplement for hydrocarbons until fusion is figured out. Once fusion is in place, energy will be plentiful, and we'll have to deal with the bad actors in Russia and the Middle East who have no way to fund their bad behavior anymore...
 

TikibirdLand

Well-Known Member
Wind and solar are a waste of time - and they're even bad for the environment! We should be riding nuclear as a supplement for hydrocarbons until fusion is figured out. Once fusion is in place, energy will be plentiful, and we'll have to deal with the bad actors in Russia and the Middle East who have no way to fund their bad behavior anymore...
While I agree with you that nuclear has a role to play, deriding Wind and Solar because it's bad for the environment isn't a good argument. We're dealing with what to do with spent fuel from the earliest days. The only way thought to work is to send it down a deep hole and hope ground water and our future selves never find it.

Wind and Solar does have the problem that there still is nowhere near enough of it to change the game. I'm not sure it ever can.
 

HauntedPirate

Park nostalgist
Premium Member
While I agree with you that nuclear has a role to play, deriding Wind and Solar because it's bad for the environment isn't a good argument. We're dealing with what to do with spent fuel from the earliest days. The only way thought to work is to send it down a deep hole and hope ground water and our future selves never find it.

Wind and Solar does have the problem that there still is nowhere near enough of it to change the game. I'm not sure it ever can.

So how about this? They are both terribly inefficient unless the power generated doesn't have to travel more than a few hundred feet.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
So how about this? They are both terribly inefficient unless the power generated doesn't have to travel more than a few hundred feet.
Also, they become less efficient if you can't use the power at the time it is generated and need to store it. It's not really an issue now in most places but there are conversion losses to store the energy and then bring it out of storage.

With nuclear (or fossil fuels) the fuel is the storage medium and you don't release the energy until you need to use it.
 

TikibirdLand

Well-Known Member
So how about this? They are both terribly inefficient unless the power generated doesn't have to travel more than a few hundred feet.
same could be said for nuclear. If there was a to use steam directly, you *may* be able to harness more energy in watts. But, There's that pesky rotating generator to deal with. Of course, most Wind and Solar have converters that step them up to line power as well. Efficient? Not really.

IMO, the primary issue with Solar and Wind is scale. I'm not sure we can ever scale it to the point of eliminating the use of carbon to generate electricity.
 

TikibirdLand

Well-Known Member
Also, they become less efficient if you can't use the power at the time it is generated and need to store it. It's not really an issue now in most places but there are conversion losses to store the energy and then bring it out of storage.

With nuclear (or fossil fuels) the fuel is the storage medium and you don't release the energy until you need to use it.
There are places where wind is very dependable, West Texas for example. I don't know how much it's used, but I read an article about the use of reservoirs for storing water for use in Hyrdro-electric generation. Off peak, water is pumped into the higher reservoir and routed back to the main supply when needed. Very interesting concept.
 

HauntedPirate

Park nostalgist
Premium Member
same could be said for nuclear. If there was a to use steam directly, you *may* be able to harness more energy in watts. But, There's that pesky rotating generator to deal with. Of course, most Wind and Solar have converters that step them up to line power as well. Efficient? Not really.

IMO, the primary issue with Solar and Wind is scale. I'm not sure we can ever scale it to the point of eliminating the use of carbon to generate electricity.
How do I charge up my electric vehicle when driving through BFE Nebraska, or Wyoming? Or in the mountains in NC? Batteries and battery capacity are the keys, but they are limited by what amounts to horrible conversion of raw material into end product plus mining practices. Unless someone figures out how to recycle batteries, electric vehicles are a losing proposition. Solar conversion rates get above 50% and you have something to work with (just in general, not for vehicle power).
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
How do I charge up my electric vehicle when driving through BFE Nebraska, or Wyoming? Or in the mountains in NC? Batteries and battery capacity are the keys, but they are limited by what amounts to horrible conversion of raw material into end product plus mining practices. Unless someone figures out how to recycle batteries, electric vehicles are a losing proposition. Solar conversion rates get above 50% and you have something to work with.
You would be surprised how many EVs you see far from population centers. The last couple of years I've been driving the country and noticed Teslas in the most unlikely places and they were packed for a trip.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
So how about this? They are both terribly inefficient unless the power generated doesn't have to travel more than a few hundred feet.
What would make Wind or Solar any different to send over transmission lines than anything else? Once it hits the transmission line, it's not like it looks any different, no matter the source it started from.

Also, they become less efficient if you can't use the power at the time it is generated and need to store it. It's not really an issue now in most places but there are conversion losses to store the energy and then bring it out of storage.

With nuclear (or fossil fuels) the fuel is the storage medium and you don't release the energy until you need to use it.
That's a start up and shutdown characteristic as power plants are managed to match usage. Nuclear isn't a great example here, as it's kind of a pain to ramp up and down and a huge pain to turn off and back on. Of course, when you exclude initial investment and only manage on the price per kilowatt produced to run, nuclear is so much cheaper than fossil fuels that utilities just run it all the time as base generation and ramp the others up and down instead.

It's kind of a bummer that hydro has a relatively easy ramp down and up characteristic, just flow less water, but that it's price to run per kilowatt is so low that it also tends to be part of base generation and run all the time too.

Wind and Solar have their own issues with ramping up and down, mostly that they're subject to outside conditions imposing that instead of only a management decision. It's why good wind installations are done in areas that basically always have wind.

The only reason we talk about storage in relation to Wind and Solar is to smooth out those outside disruptions and to provide power when there's no wind or sun. But, if you just keep something else in the mix instead of a "100% can only have wind and solar" solution, that other thing can act as the buffer instead of storage.

We need a mix of generation, with different parts having different characteristics. Each optimized for the value add that one brings. There is no single one best, but a best system outcome instead.

Just like there's no one best ride for providing capacity at the park. It needs a mix of omnimovers, thrill rides, shows, small, and large. Each brings it's own advantages and disadvantages. The mix creates something better than the parts.

PS: A jet engine powered by natural gas or jet fuel has amazing ramp up and down characteristics. It's bad at just about everything else, but still an important niche.
 

HauntedPirate

Park nostalgist
Premium Member
You would be surprised how many EVs you see far from population centers. The last couple of years I've been driving the country and noticed Teslas in the most unlikely places and they were packed for a trip.

It's certainly possible, without a doubt. But now imagine every car, truck, SUV, and semi on the road is electric and needs charging along all our interstates.
 

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