Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Splash4eva]

It feels like to me (and maybe only me) Disney does stuff primarily because MONEY and if the guest experience benefits, its just a coincidence. Just my opinion.

Listen i agree that Disney does stuff geared around money but lets face it what company doesnt do just that?

 

[Disstevefan1]

Listen i agree that Disney does stuff geared around money but lets face it what company doesnt do just that?

It just feels like to me, in Disney's theme park business, the guest experience (which in my opinion should be at the top of their priority list), is down on their priority list today in my opinion.

Yes, constant price increases, charging for stuff that was once free and constant cutting offerings to save costs, is what many companies do, but in my opinion, should not be the priority in an entertainment company like Disney's theme park business.

 

[Chi84]

Folks realize you could usually do this if they weren’t artificially extending waits by selling line-jumping, right? Lightning Lanes are largely a solution to a problem they themselves create.

That’s not true if you want to do the most popular rides without waiting in a long line or going at an inconvenient time.

Prior to legacy fastpass we had to skip those rides. Now we get to ride them.

 

[FerretAfros]

I visited in 2021 about 2 weeks before G+ dropped (still no line skipping, but near full capacity). I got less done that day (with a group of only adults), than I have in all of my later trips with the aid of G+ and LLMP (including the last 2 trips with a baby or a toddler).

There is also result of DLR Pirates going on LL for about 18 months... I did the math on it (it's in a DLR thread), but overall it averaged an increase of about 5-10 mins on the standby line by being added to LLMP. It's not like the line suddenly doubled due to LLMP.

So... I have both subjective, and objective data showing that dropping LLMP would not make my trips better.

Waiting 5-10 minutes extra on a single ride isn't a big deal for guests who only ride a single ride during their day at the park, but exceedingly few people visit the parks in that manner. Most come and spend a large portion of the day and try to ride multiple things, and those increased wait times have a meaningful impact over the course of a day.

And while 5-10 minutes doesn't seem like much in isolation, using your numbers from the DL thread jumping from 30 to 35 minutes represents a 17% longer wait. When guests already spend several hours each day waiting in queues, having them spend 17% (or more) longer is a significant change.

Additionally, it cannot be overstated how much better equipped DLR is to distribute crowds, despite its more compact layout and smaller queues. Using the number of rides as a shorthand for "things people wait in line for" (since line-skipping is functionally worthless at walk-through and theater-based attractions, where there isn't a linear queue), Disneyland Park has 37 rides, 14 of which have a line-skipping option, 23 of which do not; DCA has 17 total, 9 with LL, 8 without. If guests want to ride things without being directly impacted by LL slowing down the queue (though it inflates wait times across the park), there's still a variety of attractions to choose from.

Meanwhile in WDW, MK generously has about 24 rides (including the currently-closed Big Thunder, seldom-operating Main Street Vehicles, and soon-to-close Liberty Belle & Rafts to Tom Sawyer Island), 17 of which offer line-skipping, and 7 do not. Epcot has 12 total rides, DHS has 9, and DAK has 7; across those 3 parks, a total of 2 rides (Friendship Boats & Wildlife Express) don't have LL.

Visitors-per-park are roughly equivalent between both resorts, but WDW has fewer rides for them to visit, resulting in longer lines. WDW further compounds this issue by having far fewer rides without LL, making the already-long waits even longer with fewer "pressure relief valves" to easily absorb crowds. And to top it all off, WDW's parks have much shorter operating hours (using today as an example, WDW's parks average 11.75 hours of operation each vs. DLR's 15 hours - 28% more), making a guests' time an even more precious commodity.

So, sure, 5 or 10 minutes here or there isn't a major change. But over the course of a busy vacation in crowded parks, it can result in hours of additional waiting, which will meaningfully impact what a guest is or isn't able to experience during the park's operating hours. Disney isn't in the business of providing a great experience, they're in the business of making its customers just-miserable enough that they're willing to pay extra to make the already-expensive parks slightly more bearable.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

And while 5-10 minutes doesn't seem like much in isolation, using your numbers from the DL thread jumping from 30 to 35 minutes represents a 17% longer wait. When guests already spend several hours each day waiting in queues, having them spend 17% (or more) longer is a significant change.

You can add shortened park hours to the mix as well.

I remember the days when MK was open until midnight, even in relatively quiet periods. Guests had more flexibility and if you stayed late you had a great experience.

So not only are we losing a few hours to longer standby times, we've lost a few operating hours as well.

It's probably not an exaggeration that we're getting the equivalent of 5-6 less park hours per day compared to the past.

 

[Purduevian]

Waiting 5-10 minutes extra on a single ride isn't a big deal for guests who only ride a single ride during their day at the park, but exceedingly few people visit the parks in that manner. Most come and spend a large portion of the day and try to ride multiple things, and those increased wait times have a meaningful impact over the course of a day.

And while 5-10 minutes doesn't seem like much in isolation, using your numbers from the DL thread jumping from 30 to 35 minutes represents a 17% longer wait. When guests already spend several hours each day waiting in queues, having them spend 17% (or more) longer is a significant change.

Additionally, it cannot be overstated how much better equipped DLR is to distribute crowds, despite its more compact layout and smaller queues. Using the number of rides as a shorthand for "things people wait in line for" (since line-skipping is functionally worthless at walk-through and theater-based attractions, where there isn't a linear queue), Disneyland Park has 37 rides, 14 of which have a line-skipping option, 23 of which do not; DCA has 17 total, 9 with LL, 8 without. If guests want to ride things without being directly impacted by LL slowing down the queue (though it inflates wait times across the park), there's still a variety of attractions to choose from.

Meanwhile in WDW, MK generously has about 24 rides (including the currently-closed Big Thunder, seldom-operating Main Street Vehicles, and soon-to-close Liberty Belle & Rafts to Tom Sawyer Island), 17 of which offer line-skipping, and 7 do not. Epcot has 12 total rides, DHS has 9, and DAK has 7; across those 3 parks, a total of 2 rides (Friendship Boats & Wildlife Express) don't have LL.

Visitors-per-park are roughly equivalent between both resorts, but WDW has fewer rides for them to visit, resulting in longer lines. WDW further compounds this issue by having far fewer rides without LL, making the already-long waits even longer with fewer "pressure relief valves" to easily absorb crowds. And to top it all off, WDW's parks have much shorter operating hours (using today as an example, WDW's parks average 11.75 hours of operation each vs. DLR's 15 hours - 28% more), making a guests' time an even more precious commodity.

So, sure, 5 or 10 minutes here or there isn't a major change. But over the course of a busy vacation in crowded parks, it can result in hours of additional waiting, which will meaningfully impact what a guest is or isn't able to experience during the park's operating hours. Disney isn't in the business of providing a great experience, they're in the business of making its customers just-miserable enough that they're willing to pay extra to make the already-expensive parks slightly more bearable.

I'm going to agree with you with the idea that we really can't use DLR Pirates as an indicator as what effects LL has at WDW... it was a bad comparison to bring up.

Instead, I think the best think to do would be comparing a WDW attraction pre skip the line vs WDW attraction post skip the line. However, to adjust for crowd levels I think we also need to look at a ride that never had LL. Additionally, this is a great test case because it's not just 1 ride moving from standby to skip the line... it was the whole park in October of 2021.

The best combo I can think off the top of my head is Buzz and People mover. Both are high capacity attractions and 1 has LL and 1 does not, both have no height requirement and are located right next to each other in the same park.

So Pre-G+

Month	Buzz Average Wait time	People Mover Average Wait time	Difference
July 2021	42	22	20
August 2021	28	13	15
September 2021	20	12	18
Average			17.7

Post G+

Month	Buzz Average Wait time	People Mover Average Wait time	Difference
November 2021	40	21	19
December 2021	42	21	21
January 2021	44	23	21
Average			20.3

So the wait time went up 2.6 minutes or ~6%... Please someone show me math... any math that shows how LL is wrecking standby lines.

The Defunctland simulation was great on Shapeland/Animal kingdom. However, it was all theoretical and even he states that it is a flawed system... I'm looking for some real world data... It didn't take into account that people with a line skip system might be more likely to shop, eat, wander, ect than those without one. It also didn't factor in things like parades, streetmosphere, group dynamics, ect.

 

[Splash4eva]

It just feels like to me, in Disney's theme park business, the guest experience (which in my opinion should be at the top of their priority list), is down on their priority list today in my opinion.

Yes, constant price increases, charging for stuff that was once free and constant cutting offerings to save costs, is what many companies do, but in my opinion, should not be the priority in an entertainment company like Disney's theme park business.

Im not defending Disney at all trust me and guest experience should be a top priority but as far as Disney is concerned as long as they dont have a bad experience they are content. Whats sad is this. People may or may not deny it. They could expand and build and bring everything back. People will still pay top dollar for all these add ons top dollar for sub par food and hotels bc they are Disney. Imo there is so much left on the table

 

[Tony the Tigger]

any chance you can link to the research? I'd love to read it.

I’m sorry, I do not. I am fairly certain it was posted by him in this thread. You should be able to do a search for his name and if you like, you can narrow it to this thread alone. I believe his userid here is just his name, lentesta. I’m guessing this was a few weeks ago. I could be wrong!

 

[Splash4eva]

The other thing that gets me is always referencing the defuctland youtube doc as if its the holy grail bible. Its like the bs 2000 calorie a day we were sold growing up and the decades long lie we been told about fat vs sugar. Disney is a way way different place now as we all know so constantly saying its Bible to me is useless and yes ive watched it… twice

 

[Casper Gutman]

That’s not true if you want to do the most popular rides without waiting in a long line or going at an inconvenient time.

Prior to legacy fastpass we had to skip those rides. Now we get to ride them.

Now they’ve taken away the option of riding with a shorter line at “an inconvenient time” (which was never particularly inconvenient, you just had to pay attention). Now you wait in a long line unless you pay a lot more money. You’re happy to do that and that’s great. But it’s perfectly fair for posters to criticize you AND Disney!

 

[Agent H]

I still think the best answer is to do away with it all together. Every attraction queue should be as well themed as the queues for the best e-ticket attractions.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Now they’ve taken away the option of riding with a shorter line at “an inconvenient time” (which was never particularly inconvenient, you just had to pay attention). Now you wait in a long line unless you pay a lot more money. You’re happy to do that and that’s great. But it’s perfectly fair for posters to criticize you AND Disney!

This is not accurate. If you go early in the morning or late at night, you are likely to do plenty of things with short lines.

 

[JD80]

Sitting in MCO right now. Went to the parks with my daughter for a day to see TSI for the first and last time.

We purchased MK LLMP but had hoppers and arrived at the park at 10am. Because of an extra $60 purchase we did:

SM
Tron (Standby)
Pirates
HM
TSI
JC
RnRC
MMRR
ToT
Falcon
(Could have done Midway Mania)
Remy
(Could have done SSE and Soarin)
TBA
Pan
Buzz
CoP

We chose not to do any of the other rides (we decided to eat or have snacks or watch fireworks) but they were short waits. Could have done Mine Train standby.

Point being is that the extra $60 afforded us the ability to maximize the hoppers, have a great day and also have a sit down meal at Shiki Sai. Never had to wait more than 10-15m for a ride. I say that has incredible value.

 

[Splash4eva]

Now they’ve taken away the option of riding with a shorter line at “an inconvenient time” (which was never particularly inconvenient, you just had to pay attention). Now you wait in a long line unless you pay a lot more money. You’re happy to do that and that’s great. But it’s perfectly fair for posters to criticize you AND Disney!

Rope dropping to me still holds if you are looking to avoid wait times and avoid paying for any services Disney offers. Same pretty much holds true towards end of night as well. Its about one of the fee constants at the world over the years…

 

[Disgruntled Walt]

I didn't buy MK LLMP for any day of our trip, but we're spending 1 day and 3 nights at MK, so I figure we'll have plenty of chances to get on everything...am I wrong?

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I didn't buy MK LLMP for any day of our trip, but we're spending 1 day and 3 nights at MK, so I figure we'll have plenty of chances to get on everything...am I wrong?

Everything except Tron (not included in MP anyway, averages 1 hour wait.)

 

[Dranth]

I didn't buy MK LLMP for any day of our trip, but we're spending 1 day and 3 nights at MK, so I figure we'll have plenty of chances to get on everything...am I wrong?

We haven't had to buy it for MK, but we do go a different time of year so not sure how well in translates over.

 

[Disgruntled Walt]

Everything except Tron (not included in MP anyway, averages 1 hour wait.)

I've got LLSP for Tron, so that's covered. We'll just have to take our chances, I guess.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I've got LLSP for Tron, so that's covered. We'll just have to take our chances, I guess.

We’ve never had a bad trip going that way, but we are a much smaller party of two.

Again, your best bet is to take advantage of early morning and late night hours. Get up early, get to the parks when they open, take a nice break in the afternoon back at the room when the parks are busy and hot, go to dinner, and enjoy the cooler and less crowded evening hours, especially during parades and fireworks if you like.

If you are staying at a luxury resort, you will have an extra advantage of certain exclusive hours throughout the week.

For one person, it’s difficult to justify the price increase from a value or moderate resort to a deluxe for that perk, but it becomes easier to justify when you have more people staying in the room.

 

[Splash4eva]

I didn't buy MK LLMP for any day of our trip, but we're spending 1 day and 3 nights at MK, so I figure we'll have plenty of chances to get on everything...am I wrong?

May i ask a question and feel free to tell me to mind my own business. But is passing on paying for LLMP or ILL a money or principle issue? Listen i agree i hate to pay for anything that use to be free and im a man of principle more than anything but im also not going to bite my nose to spite my face.