Changes to smoking locations at Epcot

[draybook]

For those calling smokers disgusting: I challenge you to back that up against me. I am a combat veteran Marine, served my country honorably for 8 years. I now work for the VA, supporting Homeless Veterans in their recovery from Mental Health and Substance Abuse Issues, as well as helping them obtain independence in their living. I am also a smoker.

What I find disgusting is the attitudes of many people, and a few of them on this board, that think they are better than others. Casting judgement is a disgusting habit, more so than smoking. At least my "disgusting" only affects me, especially when I obey the rules and only smoke in designated areas. Your habit affects people emotionally and socially. Get off your high horse and stop believing you are better than anyone. We are all human, and all have our faults.

Anyways, sorry to derail with a rant. Just can't stand that attitude.

I've never seen the stats of how many people are under health care observation for second hand judgement. But I can pull up some numbers for second hand smoke related medical issues if you'd like. This has nothing to do with anyone being better than others. Smoking IS a disgusting habit, that's not debatable. Heck, I was a casual smoker for a while and I know it's disgusting. It's stinky and it affects others around you.

I applaud you for smoking in the designated areas. Honestly, I don't care if people smoke on property, I just wish that whatever numbskull was in charge would have placed the smoking areas AWAY from the walking paths. It's good to see them finally remedying that situation.

 

[Section106]

For those calling smokers disgusting: I challenge you to back that up against me. I am a combat veteran Marine, served my country honorably for 8 years. I now work for the VA, supporting Homeless Veterans in their recovery from Mental Health and Substance Abuse Issues, as well as helping them obtain independence in their living. I am also a smoker.

What I find disgusting is the attitudes of many people, and a few of them on this board, that think they are better than others. Casting judgement is a disgusting habit, more so than smoking. At least my "disgusting" only affects me, especially when I obey the rules and only smoke in designated areas. Your habit affects people emotionally and socially. Get off your high horse and stop believing you are better than anyone. We are all human, and all have our faults.

Anyways, sorry to derail with a rant. Just can't stand that attitude.

Your argument that smoking only affects you is patently false and is a hallmark of those that are addicted to a substance. As a recovered alcoholic I have used that same argument many a time. Also, your citing of your military service is an example of grandiose thinking meant to prove that you are special and different from everyone else that doesn't smoke. Maybe you should sit in on those meetings, friend. Twelve step programs do work.

And to show that your argument is false I quote from the NIDA:

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/tobacco/what-are-extent-impact-tobacco-use]
Tobacco use is the leading preventable cause of death in the United States. The impact of tobacco use in terms of morbidity and mortality to society is staggering.

Economically, more than $96 billion of total U.S. healthcare costs each year are attributable directly to smoking. However, this is well below the total cost to society because it does not include burn care from smoking-related fires, perinatal care for low-birthweight infants of mothers who smoke, and medical care costs associated with disease caused by secondhand smoke. In addition to healthcare costs, the costs of lost productivity due to smoking effects are estimated at $97 billion per year, bringing a conservative estimate of the economic burden of smoking to more than $193 billion per year.

So smoking tobacco costs the US $193 billion a year. Not a small inconsequential sum. And it does harm to nonsmokers as well.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publicati...cco/what-are-medical-consequences-tobacco-use
Although we often think of medical consequences that result from direct use of tobacco products, passive or secondary smoke also increases the risk for many diseases. Environmental tobacco smoke is a major source of indoor air contaminants; secondhand smoke is estimated to cause approximately 3,000 lung cancer deaths per year among nonsmokers and contributes to more than 35,000 deaths related to cardiovascular disease. Exposure to tobacco smoke in the home is also a risk factor for new cases and increased severity of childhood asthma. Additionally, dropped cigarettes are the leading cause of residential fire fatalities, leading to more than 1,000 deaths each year.

If you want to smoke then I guess that's your right. But don't act like what you are doing is good. Tobacco smoke kills. You are risking death and when you smoke in public you are polluting the immediate environment with toxic carcinogens that are know to kill nonsmokers. It is not a safe or harmless behavior. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. But you should've have the right to inject toxic chemicals into my lungs because of your delicate feelings.

And for the record, I'm a former VA employee who coordinated the wheelchair, ambulance, and transplant patient travel program and only resigned to become my 100% Disabled Veteran wife's full time caretaker. So we're both special that way.

 

[Phil12]

WDW has been in the process of a long term plan to eliminate smoking in the entire resort. The final phases include a slow and steady removal of smoking areas in the parks. The MK is a good example. As you know, smoking areas in the MK were prolific just a few years ago. Now there are only three designated smoking areas left in the MK. In a few years MK and the other parks will be smoke free. WDW has no obligation to enable addiction.

 

[King Panda 77]

WDW has been in the process of a long term plan to eliminate smoking in the entire resort. The final phases include a slow and steady removal of smoking areas in the parks. The MK is a good example. As you know, smoking areas in the MK were prolific just a few years ago. Now there are only three designated smoking areas left in the MK. In a few years MK and the other parks will be smoke free. WDW has no obligation to enable addiction.

Unless it makes them money (food and wine)

 

[Phil12]

Unless it makes them money (food and wine)

Yes indeed that's an important factor. Disney knows from previous studies and their own experience that a smoking ban in the parks will not have an adverse economic impact. There will actually be a small economic benefit to imposing a total smoking ban.

It's only been nine years since WDW imposed a smoking ban at all of its hotels.

 

[Unplugged]

That'll probably be their next up-charge event

Only if it includes cupcakes!

 

[Goofyernmost]

If you want to smoke then I guess that's your right. But don't act like what you are doing is good. Tobacco smoke kills. You are risking death and when you smoke in public you are polluting the immediate environment with toxic carcinogens that are know to kill nonsmokers. It is not a safe or harmless behavior. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. But you should've have the right to inject toxic chemicals into my lungs because of your delicate feelings.

And for the record, I'm a former VA employee who coordinated the wheelchair, ambulance, and transplant patient travel program and only resigned to become my 100% Disabled Veteran wife's full time caretaker. So we're both special that way.

You had me until you got all righteous about polluting the immediate environment with toxic carcinogens. I'm going to assume, since you do seem to be a believer, that you do all your transportation via foot or bicycles. Otherwise, any other form, including horses, create massive killing pollution much of a higher volume then if every smoker in the world lit up at exactly the same time. I'm agreeing that smoking is a bad thing, not always because of cancer either, but, if anyone is going to climb up on that soapbox and preach the evils of harm being done to others, please make sure that your own house is in order. If you flew, drove or rode to WDW you contributed far more then the poor nicotine slave will generate if he stood there all day chain smoking. It's a made up problem in it's measurement of harm that is constantly used to make it sound like the evil smoker, is literally killing people on a daily basis.

No smoker is usually really going to argue about the need for designated areas, but, not because one will get cancer walking through the area, but, because of the occasional allergy or breathing difficulty sufferer. (not the ones that force a cough as they walk 50 yards by the area just to make drama) The answer is not to eliminate those places to stop the "disgusting" as you say, habit or to make it so difficult to find or get too that they just get frustrated and light up anywhere, basically telling all of you to pound sand. I feel very strongly that is what it is going to come to and Disney also needs to realize that smokers spend a lot of money as well and it isn't just the other side that should be being heard or cared about no matter what the "others" think is the right thing.

If it works I guess the next big killer, alcohol, will be in the everyones sights. Oh, wait... that may be something that the smoke haters do on a regular basis, so, they will overlook the thousands of people that die every year directly connected to the consumption of alcohol. Must be dying that way is much more pleasant then dealing with a minuscule particle of smoke in the outdoor make up of the air we breath.

 

[Tinkwings]

Just Sayin' .....It is the behavior NOT the person I find disgusting, one can love or like a person but not a specific behavior. I know many people including extended family who suffer from other addictions, whom I continue to support, love and accept. BUT I will never love the behavior and how it impacts their lives and the often times people around them.....and yep, everyone of them says they don't have a problem. I do know that they often cannot separate anothers disgust or dislike for their behavior from themselves as a person. That is in part the denial thing, addiction is a very hard thing to face let alone to overcome....I really wish it were such that many addictive behaviors didn't affect anyone but the individual, but its never that simple period. I applaud anyone for even making the effort to stop....don't stop stopping.....meanwhile I will happily zip through my short cut paths next trip without holding breath........now if I can only hope that families addicted to media gadgets can unplug long enough to enjoy each other verbally with eye contact and see the awesome details and wonder surrounding them while at the parks. Sigh. And as long as chocolate is about I will be just fine.....

 

[bethymouse]

My husband will just light up anywhere then ( within reason of course) It is sad. My husband is not a deplorable person. He is just addicted to the nicotine. The smoking areas were for those who wanted to smoke to do so and not to "bother" others. Now, these decisions to eliminate them almost altogether will make things worse IMHO.

 

[Section106]

You had me until you got all righteous about polluting the immediate environment with toxic carcinogens. I'm going to assume, since you do seem to be a believer, that you do all your transportation via foot or bicycles. Otherwise, any other form, including horses, create massive killing pollution much of a higher volume then if every smoker in the world lit up at exactly the same time. I'm agreeing that smoking is a bad thing, not always because of cancer either, but, if anyone is going to climb up on that soapbox and preach the evils of harm being done to others, please make sure that your own house is in order. If you flew, drove or rode to WDW you contributed far more then the poor nicotine slave will generate if he stood there all day chain smoking. It's a made up problem in it's measurement of harm that is constantly used to make it sound like the evil smoker, is literally killing people on a daily basis.

No smoker is usually really going to argue about the need for designated areas, but, not because one will get cancer walking through the area, but, because of the occasional allergy or breathing difficulty sufferer. (not the ones that force a cough as they walk 50 yards by the area just to make drama) The answer is not to eliminate those places to stop the "disgusting" as you say, habit or to make it so difficult to find or get too that they just get frustrated and light up anywhere, basically telling all of you to pound sand. I feel very strongly that is what it is going to come to and Disney also needs to realize that smokers spend a lot of money as well and it isn't just the other side that should be being heard or cared about no matter what the "others" think is the right thing.

If it works I guess the next big killer, alcohol, will be in the everyones sights. Oh, wait... that may be something that the smoke haters do on a regular basis, so, they will overlook the thousands of people that die every year directly connected to the consumption of alcohol. Must be dying that way is much more pleasant then dealing with a minuscule particle of smoke in the outdoor make up of the air we breath.

Nice straw man argument there. Are we talking about automobile pollution in this thread or are we talking about tobacco smoke? I quoted a statistic about the amount of deaths caused by secondhand smoke in response to the assertion that cigarette smoke is harmless to others. I made no other claim so what are you on about? I didn't write the adjective "disgusting" anywhere in my post so I don't know what you are referring to since you quoted my post. Maybe you meant someone else?

 

[Gabe1]

You had me until you got all righteous about polluting the immediate environment with toxic carcinogens. I'm going to assume, since you do seem to be a believer, that you do all your transportation via foot or bicycles. Otherwise, any other form, including horses, create massive killing pollution much of a higher volume then if every smoker in the world lit up at exactly the same time. I'm agreeing that smoking is a bad thing, not always because of cancer either, but, if anyone is going to climb up on that soapbox and preach the evils of harm being done to others, please make sure that your own house is in order. If you flew, drove or rode to WDW you contributed far more then the poor nicotine slave will generate if he stood there all day chain smoking. It's a made up problem in it's measurement of harm that is constantly used to make it sound like the evil smoker, is literally killing people on a daily basis.

No smoker is usually really going to argue about the need for designated areas, but, not because one will get cancer walking through the area, but, because of the occasional allergy or breathing difficulty sufferer. (not the ones that force a cough as they walk 50 yards by the area just to make drama) The answer is not to eliminate those places to stop the "disgusting" as you say, habit or to make it so difficult to find or get too that they just get frustrated and light up anywhere, basically telling all of you to pound sand. I feel very strongly that is what it is going to come to and Disney also needs to realize that smokers spend a lot of money as well and it isn't just the other side that should be being heard or cared about no matter what the "others" think is the right thing.

If it works I guess the next big killer, alcohol, will be in the everyones sights. Oh, wait... that may be something that the smoke haters do on a regular basis, so, they will overlook the thousands of people that die every year directly connected to the consumption of alcohol. Must be dying that way is much more pleasant then dealing with a minuscule particle of smoke in the outdoor make up of the air we breath.

Well stated. The total environment is invaded by so many things we humans do. To zero in on a singular one is disingenuous. I ride the Disney busses. Don't want to breath in that tailpipe exhaust either, I ride the Disney Boats, I ride the train. I fly to WDW. I take the ferry to the MK. I rely on the energy need to power the monorail. I go to campfires at our resorts. I endure the smoke from Illuminations at times on the wrong side of the wind which tends to make me gasp when the wind is strong enough which is far worse than than any smoking section I've ever passed and frankly the smoking sections are so easy to avoid unlike Illuminations backwash of smoke.

 

[James Norrie]

Your argument that smoking only affects you is patently false and is a hallmark of those that are addicted to a substance. As a recovered alcoholic I have used that same argument many a time. Also, your citing of your military service is an example of grandiose thinking meant to prove that you are special and different from everyone else that doesn't smoke. Maybe you should sit in on those meetings, friend. Twelve step programs do work.

And to show that your argument is false I quote from the NIDA:


So smoking tobacco costs the US $193 billion a year. Not a small inconsequential sum. And it does harm to nonsmokers as well.



If you want to smoke then I guess that's your right. But don't act like what you are doing is good. Tobacco smoke kills. You are risking death and when you smoke in public you are polluting the immediate environment with toxic carcinogens that are know to kill nonsmokers. It is not a safe or harmless behavior. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. But you should've have the right to inject toxic chemicals into my lungs because of your delicate feelings.

And for the record, I'm a former VA employee who coordinated the wheelchair, ambulance, and transplant patient travel program and only resigned to become my 100% Disabled Veteran wife's full time caretaker. So we're both special that way.

Well, There's only 2 things I'd like to point out here. Just as I, as a smoker, have to look at a park guide or MDE to find out where the smoking areas are, non-smokers also have to power and knowledge at their fingers to find where they are, and avoid if necessary. It is readily available information that can help you not "Ingest" the exhaled smoke of others.
Also, I did not cite military service as an example of "grandiose thinking meant to prove that I am special and different from everyone else that doesn't smoke". I pointed it out to show that even people like me smoke. Doctors, Lawyers, Nurses, Accountants, Firemen, Law Enforcement... No Matter, there's smokers in every crowd, all groups of people (maybe with the exception of lawyers ) who serve in non "Disgusting" professions. That is all...

And BTW, Thank you for your service and sacrifice

 

[James Norrie]

I've never seen the stats of how many people are under health care observation for second hand judgement. But I can pull up some numbers for second hand smoke related medical issues if you'd like. This has nothing to do with anyone being better than others. Smoking IS a disgusting habit, that's not debatable. Heck, I was a casual smoker for a while and I know it's disgusting. It's stinky and it affects others around you.

I applaud you for smoking in the designated areas. Honestly, I don't care if people smoke on property, I just wish that whatever numbskull was in charge would have placed the smoking areas AWAY from the walking paths. It's good to see them finally remedying that situation.

Now that I can agree with. I have no problem walking away from people to not intrude on their comfort. I just wish all people who smoked thought like me, instead of just lighting up wherever they see fit. We wouldn't be debating this if this was the case

 

[Section106]

Well, There's only 2 things I'd like to point out here. Just as I, as a smoker, have to look at a park guide or MDE to find out where the smoking areas are, non-smokers also have to power and knowledge at their fingers to find where they are, and avoid if necessary. It is readily available information that can help you not "Ingest" the exhaled smoke of others.
Also, I did not cite military service as an example of "grandiose thinking meant to prove that I am special and different from everyone else that doesn't smoke". I pointed it out to show that even people like me smoke. Doctors, Lawyers, Nurses, Accountants, Firemen, Law Enforcement... No Matter, there's smokers in every crowd, all groups of people (maybe with the exception of lawyers ) who serve in non "Disgusting" professions. That is all...

And BTW, Thank you for your service and sacrifice

I didn't call smokers disgusting so I don't know how to respond to that. And thank you for your service as well.

But you did cite your service as a way to deflect criticism.

For those calling smokers disgusting: I challenge you to back that up against me. I am a combat veteran Marine, served my country honorably for 8 years. I now work for the VA, supporting Homeless Veterans in their recovery from Mental Health and Substance Abuse Issues, as well as helping them obtain independence in their living. I am also a smoker.

You directly challenged anyone to describe your smoking as disgusting even though you are a veteran. There's no other way to spin that, sorry.

I do try to avoid smoking areas but sometimes you can't help it. It is not only the "exhaled" smoke but the smoke from the lit cigarette that is dangerous. And there is the matter of third hand smoke that coats surfaces that come into regular contact with cigarette smoke. So even after you are done there is toxic residue left behind.

I think that we can all agree that we need to reduce harms while trying to uphold as many rights as possible. But smoking isn't a constitutional right. It is a health risk. The idea that we can assert that addicted people have to right to do whatever they want while harming innocent people is crazy. If you want to smoke tobacco then by all means do so in the privacy and comfort of your own home. But when your addiction harms me in a public setting then it is you that needs to be regulated. I have a right to breath clean air and not have my health placed at risk by the behavior of another. That is the issue here. Not that someone called you disgusting. But that smokers are harming others with their behavior.

 

[James Norrie]

There are many things not directly cited in the Constitution, that doesn't immediately discharge them as not being rights. I like to think Liberty means my right to choose freely of my own habits. Your argument about third hand residue is invalid, I will reference all of the bacterial/viral residue left over by booger-pickers, gum chewers, common-cold sneezers, and people who don't wash their hands after doing #1 or #2 (and I saw many of those on my recent trip)... These are far more toxic to the immune system than a little left overs from smoke, and they will do much more immediate harm to you.
Once again, how you choose to interpret my point (to another poster that called smokers "Disgusting People"), is your choice. I like to think that some of the aforementioned examples are more justified in being called Disgusting than honorable people that choose to inhale something other than air. JM2C

 

[Section106]

There are many things not directly cited in the Constitution, that doesn't immediately discharge them as not being rights. I like to think Liberty means my right to choose freely of my own habits. Your argument about third hand residue is invalid, I will reference all of the bacterial/viral residue left over by booger-pickers, gum chewers, common-cold sneezers, and people who don't wash their hands after doing #1 or #2 (and I saw many of those on my recent trip)... These are far more toxic to the immune system than a little left overs from smoke, and they will do much more immediate harm to you.
Once again, how you choose to interpret my point (to another poster that called smokers "Disgusting People"), is your choice. I like to think that some of the aforementioned examples are more justified in being called Disgusting than honorable people that choose to inhale something other than air. JM2C

James, my point about third hand smoke is not invalid at all. We're talking about the changes to smoking sections in Epcot. Your assertion that smoking tobacco only harms you is the invalid argument here. If this were a thread about bacterial infections caused by insufficient hand washing then I would be on your side.

But this thread is about the ever dwindling real estate devoted to smoking guests and the laments of those that are upset about the loss. Nicotine is deadly at 30 to 60 milligrams. There are documented cases of children dying from nicotine poisoning from insecticide that inexplicably contained nicotine. We are talking about a substance that is proven to be toxic. We aren't talking about strawberry jelly here.

If you are a reasonable person then why are you defending a practice that will end up killing you and quite possibly those that live and work with and around you? This is what blows my mind about this argument. Smokers are arguing for a toxic, deadly pollutant to be released in close proximity to children. There is no other way to couch this. This isn't about the loss of your civil liberties. Disney isn't abridging your rights. Your behavior is being lawfully regulated because it poses a health risk to the population. If that bothers you then so be it. My wish for you is that you will stop smoking tobacco as quickly as possible to avoid the inevitable health crisis that is coming your way. No one deserves the pain and death that tobacco causes.

For example, my neighbor had a stroke earlier this year. While in the hospital she had complications that caused her brain to swell. She had to have part of her skull removed to release the swelling. This swelling caused many other complications that have left her wheelchair bound with a feeding tube inserted in her stomach. She worked at a hospital as an optometry technician. She is in her late forties. She was active and in good health except for the fact that she smoked two packs a day. This good person is now permanently disabled because of tobacco smoke. She will never drive a car, or work on her flower bed, or swim in her pool, or do anything without the aid of another person again. All because of smoking tobacco. This is serious and I hope that you consider stopping smoking cigarettes today.

 

[threvester]

Yes indeed that's an important factor. Disney knows from previous studies and their own experience that a smoking ban in the parks will not have an adverse economic impact. There will actually be a small economic benefit to imposing a total smoking ban.

It's only been nine years since WDW imposed a smoking ban at all of its hotels.

no study by Disney ever showed that result

 

[James Norrie]

James, my point about third hand smoke is not invalid at all. We're talking about the changes to smoking sections in Epcot. Your assertion that smoking tobacco only harms you is the invalid argument here. If this were a thread about bacterial infections caused by insufficient hand washing then I would be on your side.

You cannot complain about 1 harm (relatively miniscule), and ignore the others that are glaring and definitely MORE harmful, Immediately. I am not denying 3rd hand residue. BUT, the other things I listed (Bacteria/viruses/germs) are more prevalent in the parks, in all areas, not just the smoking sections. I highly doubt you will be hanging around in the smoking areas where the residue is, yet you seem to be ignorant to the more severe and immediate threat to you...
I get it, you don't like smokers. Move on, I choose to do with my life what I wish. I obey the rules of order, and do not impose my habit on others. In not one of my posts did I advocate for "for a toxic, deadly pollutant to be released in close proximity to children". I said, I have zero problem with walking away from common areas to indulge in my habit. I'm sorry about your neighbor, that is terrible. But, as I said, my life my choice. Maybe some day I will wise up and quit, but for now I am not prepared for that. In the meantime, I will continue to be aware, courteous, and away from non-smokers when I light up. And, I won't try to force my personal views on others on an internet forum...

 

[James Norrie]

Yes indeed that's an important factor. Disney knows from previous studies and their own experience that a smoking ban in the parks will not have an adverse economic impact. There will actually be a small economic benefit to imposing a total smoking ban.

It's only been nine years since WDW imposed a smoking ban at all of its hotels.

How so??? I was there in August, Disney made money off of my smoking. I bought 3 packs at POP, at $10 a pack, that I could've gotten at the gas station in front of MK for $5