Universal Epic Universe (South Expansion Complex) - Now Open!

[lazyboy97o]

I take it you've seen all of the original art.

What exactly is the point you’re trying to make? You claimed cuts and compromises were the result of the pandemic and just skipped over the vast majority of the design process. Now you’re talking about things from before the first piece of publicity art which were all cut well before the pandemic, during the time you skipped over in your initial post.

 

[mkt]

What exactly is the point you’re trying to make? You claimed cuts and compromises were the result of the pandemic and just skipped over the vast majority of the design process. Now you’re talking about things from before the first piece of publicity art which were all cut well before the pandemic, during the time you skipped over in your initial post.

 

[BrianLo]

If Disney had designed and built a new park from scratch during that same time frame, the compromises would have been ever more obvious, given their weaker cash position relative to Comcast and their higher debt load.

You’ve got your wires crossed. Neither company is over leveraged, but Disney is in the better fiscal position.
-Free cash at Disney is 19B forecasted, was just 19.2B at Comcast.
-Debt at Disney is 46.64B, Debt at Comcast 98.9B.
-Debt to Equity at Disney 0.41-0.43, at Comcast 1.02-1.08.

 

[mkt]

You’ve got your wires crossed. Neither company is over leveraged, but Disney is in the better fiscal position.
-Free cash at Disney is 19B forecasted, was just 19.2B at Comcast.
-Debt at Disney is 46.64B, Debt at Comcast 98.9B.
-Debt to Equity at Disney 0.41-0.43, at Comcast 1.02-1.08.

I suspect you’re looking at more recent numbers. My point was about the financial environment during the period Epic was actually being designed and built.

During much of that window Disney was absorbing the Fox acquisition, investing heavily in streaming, and eventually paying out Comcast’s stake in Hulu. Comcast, meanwhile, had extremely steady cash flow from its broadband business and strong parks revenue helping support projects like Epic.

So I’m not really comparing a Q4 2025/Q1 2026 balance sheet snapshot. I’m talking about the capital environment in the late 2010s and early 2020s when the scope and compromises of projects like this would have been determined.

Maybe I could argue that it was Disney who helped pay for Epic via Hulu, but that’s a lot of dots to connect.

 

[BrianLo]

I suspect you’re looking at more recent numbers. My point was about the financial environment during the period Epic was actually being designed and built.

During much of that window Disney was absorbing the Fox acquisition, investing heavily in streaming, and eventually paying out Comcast’s stake in Hulu. Comcast, meanwhile, had extremely steady cash flow from its broadband business and strong parks revenue helping support projects like Epic.

So I’m not really comparing a Q4 2025/Q1 2026 balance sheet snapshot. I’m talking about the capital environment in the late 2010s and early 2020s when the scope and compromises of projects like this would have been determined.

Maybe I could argue that it was Disney who helped pay for Epic via Hulu, but that’s a lot of dots to connect.

I take your broader point that I think Disney (particularly under Chapek) would have handled a similarly rolled out project far more poorly than Comcast did. Just not your rationale you are trying to support it with, your data is poor.

Comcast debt has always been riding higher by 50B over the entire window. Their debt position peaked at 112B in 2018. Disney’s peaked at 64B in 2020.

They were however briefly in a better fiscal cash flow position when it mattered, in 2020-22.

As far as Hulu goes, don’t forget Comcast bought out a 39% stake owned by Disney for Sky for 15B (of 39B) during this interval.

 

[mkt]

I take your broader point that I think Disney (particularly under Chapek) would have handled a similarly rolled out project far more poorly than Comcast did. Just not your rationale you are trying to support it with, your data is poor.

Comcast debt has always been riding higher by 50B over the entire window. Their debt position peaked at 112B in 2018. Disney’s peaked at 64B in 2020.

They were however briefly in a better fiscal cash flow position when it mattered, in 2020-22.

As far as Hulu goes, don’t forget Comcast bought out a 39% stake owned by Disney for Sky for 15B (of 39B) during this interval.

My point was less about absolute debt and more about the capital environment around the time Epic’s scope was being finalized. Comcast had a very strong and stable cash engine from broadband, and parks rebounded quickly, which gave them room to keep funding Epic through the inflation shock.

Disney, during that same window, was digesting Fox and pouring money into streaming, which clearly tightened capital allocation across the company. Whether the debt totals were higher or lower, that pressure was real and showed up in how projects were prioritized.

And yes, the Sky transaction cuts both ways in the Comcast/Disney ledger during that period. The companies were very intertwined financially for a few years there.

 

[lazyboy97o]

This isn’t an answer for you misrepresenting when events occurred and continuing to do so.

 

[mkt]

This isn’t an answer for you misrepresenting when events occurred and continuing to do so.

I’m speaking broadly about the timeframe, not presenting a strict chronology. The emojis were intentional. I can’t really be more specific than that.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I’m speaking broadly about the timeframe, not presenting a strict chronology. The emojis were intentional. I can’t really be more specific than that.

You didn’t speak broadly. You made specific claims contradicted by public documents and are trying to distract from them with “hints” about other cuts that were well before the pandemic.

 

[mkt]

You didn’t speak broadly. You made specific claims contradicted by public documents and are trying to distract from them with “hints” about other cuts that were well before the pandemic.

While most of the design work is done and approved when construction starts, projects of this scale continue evolving as they’re being built. It’s not uncommon for a ride building to suddenly need a few hundred more square feet after the foundation has already been poured, forcing changes to be made elsewhere.

No project as complex as an all new theme park will ever have a neat timeline. Design work continues during construction, and rides can be undergoing early testing while other parts of the park are still being finalized.

So yes, I spoke about the overall timeline. But for reasons that should be obvious to some, I was purposefully vague.

 

[lazyboy97o]

While most of the design work is done and approved when construction starts, projects of this scale continue evolving as they’re being built. It’s not uncommon for a ride building to suddenly need a few hundred more square feet after the foundation has already been poured, forcing changes to be made elsewhere.

No project as complex as an all new theme park will ever have a neat timeline. Design work continues during construction, and rides can be undergoing early testing while other parts of the park are still being finalized.

So yes, I spoke about the overall timeline. But for reasons that should be obvious to some, I was purposefully vague.

Again, there are public documents that show the facilities for which Universal sought building permits. We can see a lot of what changed during construction and most people are familiar with those changes. Those changes are not the root cause of many of the complaints about the park.

 

[mkt]

Again, there are public documents that show the facilities for which Universal sought building permits. We can see a lot of what changed during construction and most people are familiar with those changes. Those changes are not the root cause of many of the complaints about the park.

The complaints - not enough to do and things break down a lot.

Sidebar, Is your professional background in project management per chance?

 

[AidenRodriguez731]

$7 billion was more than originally budgeted.

Also, as I've said before, Epic was designed and planned between 2014 and 2017. No one could have predicted the logistical and inflationary nightmares of 2020-2022. Compromises were clearly made.

If Disney had designed and built a new park from scratch during that same time frame, the compromises would have been ever more obvious, given their weaker cash position relative to Comcast and their higher debt load.

Maybe the smarter idea woul've been to not build Epic at all.

Okay budget cut wasn't the right word, scope cut is far more apt.

I just mention that its interesting that one multibillion dollar company is given every break and babied despite the fact they decided to cheap out on construction (fundamentally, the pavement should not be THIS bad so close to park open, no other park I know of has this many problems other than EPCOT's new center (perhaps they used the same guys )

Would like to point out that this is NOT a park "built from scratch", they copied over most of the ride systems and an entire land was just copied over. The compromises are super obvious in just about every land except Mario which is the one land that they didn't need to build from the ground up.

Celestial Park is still crumbling and its core coaster has had multiple lengthy shut downs at this point and 2 empty restaraunts.

Isle of Berk is a sightlines nightmare, its major coaster looks into a staff parking lot within the first 5 seconds on the GROUND LEVEL, so much for immersing you in a viking village. The theater is just painted blue at the top?

Dark Universe missed out on the boat ride or the theater to get... one of the worst "themed" custom attractions I've seen. Spirit Halloween displays have more character than the sorry excuse for the finale of Werewolf. Who approved that? Who actually spent money going out to party city to throw an old costume on a mannequin and haphazardly place some fake crates. Not to mention how it ruins the aesthetics of part of the land and the reveal of the windmill because of the netting being over the entire coaster because the land was NOT BUILT FOR THIS COASTER.

Wizarding World is honestly really pretty but with 1 ride and the other delayed indefinitely... come on. It's mostly a copy and paste with some variations of the other Harry Potter lands they've done 2 other times in the same city and all over the world with a French accent.

Idk what to tell you, it's a fine enough park but it's not great. It's not even Universal's best park in the same city its in, even despite IOA's outdated attractions, it can fit a whole lot more charm and capacity in its pinky finger.

 

[LSLS]

I just mention that its interesting that one multibillion dollar company is given every break and babied despite the fact they decided to cheap out on construction (fundamentally, the pavement should not be THIS bad so close to park open, no other park I know of has this many problems other than EPCOT's new center (perhaps they used the same guys )
.

I don't see people giving Universal a break, you just have less people in this forum with this being primarily a Disney site. Heck, you could go look at Cedar Fairs and see I have put complaints in on Cedar Point recently as well, but there are like 3 of us on that board. Those complaints you raise have been said by multiple people here. I am a big Disney attacker about the exact same things you list here, and I have put complaints here about some of those things.

But the thing is, I don't know the whole issue with the coaster. By that, I mean, I didn't know it has tons of downtime, cause I just don't follow Universal as much. I just started following this thread after my first real visit to any Universal Park since I was in college (and that was just a fast IOA trip). In that time frame between visits, I've been to Disney, oh, counting the passes when I lived there, maybe around 60 times? So I know all about the breakdowns of Rise, and the broken Yeti never being fixed, cause that's where I've always gone and what I've followed. It's part of the nature of these boards, most have a lot more knowledge of Disney.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The complaints - not enough to do and things break down a lot.

Again, what was cut during the pandemic is known.

 

[Andrew C]

I don't see people giving Universal a break, you just have less people in this forum with this being primarily a Disney site. Heck, you could go look at Cedar Fairs and see I have put complaints in on Cedar Point recently as well, but there are like 3 of us on that board. Those complaints you raise have been said by multiple people here. I am a big Disney attacker about the exact same things you list here, and I have put complaints here about some of those things.

But the thing is, I don't know the whole issue with the coaster. By that, I mean, I didn't know it has tons of downtime, cause I just don't follow Universal as much. I just started following this thread after my first real visit to any Universal Park since I was in college (and that was just a fast IOA trip). In that time frame between visits, I've been to Disney, oh, counting the passes when I lived there, maybe around 60 times? So I know all about the breakdowns of Rise, and the broken Yeti never being fixed, cause that's where I've always gone and what I've followed. It's part of the nature of these boards, most have a lot more knowledge of Disney.

Yep, when you go through this particular thread, there are plenty of people that are critical of Universal. And there are people are keen to defend them. Just like the Disney threads, but on a smaller scale. I would say that Universal does tend to get a bit of good will or benefit of the doubt because they just recently opened a brand new park, 3 new hotels and all the infrastructure around these areas that is required. And some people also see Universal providing more value or bang for your buck compared to WDW. But that is more recent...prior to that people talked about SCREEEENNZZZZ!

 

[AidenRodriguez731]

I don't see people giving Universal a break, you just have less people in this forum with this being primarily a Disney site. Heck, you could go look at Cedar Fairs and see I have put complaints in on Cedar Point recently as well, but there are like 3 of us on that board. Those complaints you raise have been said by multiple people here. I am a big Disney attacker about the exact same things you list here, and I have put complaints here about some of those things.

But the thing is, I don't know the whole issue with the coaster. By that, I mean, I didn't know it has tons of downtime, cause I just don't follow Universal as much. I just started following this thread after my first real visit to any Universal Park since I was in college (and that was just a fast IOA trip). In that time frame between visits, I've been to Disney, oh, counting the passes when I lived there, maybe around 60 times? So I know all about the breakdowns of Rise, and the broken Yeti never being fixed, cause that's where I've always gone and what I've followed. It's part of the nature of these boards, most have a lot more knowledge of Disney.

Just going to point out that one effect seen for 2 seconds on a coaster is not comparable to the whole coaster being down.

Rise is... well it shouldn't go down as often as it does but I will point out that I personally have never seen it down while I was in the parks. I'm not checking very often and I use LL for it but I've never had my return time changed for it being down or anything like that. In fact, I've only had exactly one time where a ride was down during my LL and it was Kali River Rapids due to an imminent storm.

I guess I am very very lucky

 

[LSLS]

Just going to point out that one effect seen for 2 seconds on a coaster is not comparable to the whole coaster being down.

Rise is... well it shouldn't go down as often as it does but I will point out that I personally have never seen it down while I was in the parks. I'm not checking very often and I use LL for it but I've never had my return time changed for it being down or anything like that. In fact, I've only had exactly one time where a ride was down during my LL and it was Kali River Rapids due to an imminent storm.

I guess I am very very lucky

You are comparing a ride (without some things working) in what, it's 6th or 7th year vs the first year of this one. The first year Rise never had a day it didn't go down for at least some of the time. If you want personal experience, we were there early on when it was still the virtual que, it shut down with us on it and we were taken off backstage. This was towards the end of the night and they said it would not be open again tonight (around 1 hour left in the day). I've never felt worse for cast members than when we left at the end of the night and the Customer Service desk was 50 people long about the LL they had purchased for the ride but were unable to use. But I do remember having a discussion as we were walking to the next ride about how bad I felt for people who had purchased.

Heck, there were all sorts of complaints about Siren's Curse at Cedar Point this year because of down time. As I've started following Universal stuff closer, there are tons of complaints about the downtime issue. It's not that you don't hear about it, it's that there are a lot more following Disney to complain.

 

[AidenRodriguez731]

You are comparing a ride (without some things working) in what, it's 6th or 7th year vs the first year of this one. The first year Rise never had a day it didn't go down for at least some of the time. If you want personal experience, we were there early on when it was still the virtual que, it shut down with us on it and we were taken off backstage. This was towards the end of the night and they said it would not be open again tonight (around 1 hour left in the day). I've never felt worse for cast members than when we left at the end of the night and the Customer Service desk was 50 people long about the LL they had purchased for the ride but were unable to use. But I do remember having a discussion as we were walking to the next ride about how bad I felt for people who had purchased.

Heck, there were all sorts of complaints about Siren's Curse at Cedar Point this year because of down time. As I've started following Universal stuff closer, there are tons of complaints about the downtime issue. It's not that you don't hear about it, it's that there are a lot more following Disney to complain.

I agree its a pretty unfair comparison to compare a ride with multiple animatronics, effects, newer ride system.

With a fairly standard (but really good! one of the best easily) dueling steel coaster.

 

[Rich Brownn]

I take it you've seen all of the original art.

The art was posted along with the park announcement back in 2019.