MK Piston Peak and Villains Land Construction Thread

[lazyboy97o]

The tron tunnel was a downgrade for the railroad - it could have been a positive.

It could have if TRON wasn’t a panic move. The priority was dropping it somewhere it physically fit and everything else was tertiary.

 

[James Alucobond]

But nothing about the WDW railroad scenery is garbage - the stretches of trees give you the feeling of actually traveling by train.

I thought we were talking about constructed scenery akin to DL. WDW has always been deficient on that front by comparison.

 

[mattpeto]

I thought we were talking about constructed scenery akin to DL. WDW has always been deficient on that front by comparison.

Yes, but that doesn't make it garbage.

 

[Pizza Moon]

Let's face it, they really have not thought alot about what you see on the train...not since the original incarnation of the park...the scenery has dwindled....and now that EVERYTHING has been scrapped as far as scenery goes, they really need to start over fresh... and maybe add some truly engaging sets around the train line... This is the same problem they have with the Peoplemover... they both need some serious investment of new show sets...

Not using the Stitch AAs from SGE for Peoplemover was a crime

 

[Conor.Nam15]

Most people seem to agree that Villains Land will not be a dead-end with a single entry/exit bottle neck. The question is whether the two access points will both be between Haunted Mansion and Big Thunder Mountain, and is that enough distance apart to alleviate congestion?

In that gap there seems to be four ways a path could go to Villains Land given the structures we've learned about. Going from west to east, with arguments for and against:

Big Thunder Trail
This is a known scenic format, seen at Disneyland (and similar to the walkway along Grizzly River Run and along Radiator Springs Racers at DCA), affords extended aesthetic appreciation of the kinetic BTM. The strongest argument for this possibility is that the drain lines are shown here and those often are under walkways. A second argument is that if one or more other paths are used, why the dead space left here? I guess there could be a backstage access road here if visibility was blocked while riding BTM.
View attachment 906173
Long Tunnel
The argument for this is that in recent immersive projects Disney has used tunnels to create transition separation, and that a narrow building like this within the park area would have few other uses (beyond wet or dry parade float storage). The argument against is that it's very long and straight rather than doglegged.

Open Path
An open -- non tunnel -- path is good to preserve parade access, and could be plenty atmospheric. It's also possible a tunnel could be located here but perhaps that type of structure doesn't need to be included on the drain plan.

Short Tunnel
This is what is typical with Disney's land-transition tunnels, as seen at DLP and DHS with SWGE. The argument against this structure being a short tunnel is that most people think an extended queue for Haunted Mansion is necessary to remove blockage to the HM-to-BTM path. This seems like the most likely spot for that queue.

Pick 2?
If there will be two ways in and out of Villains Land, what combos of these approaches could work? I don't think any two adjacent approaches would make sense (e.g., Big Thunder Trail and Long Tunnel, or Open Path and Short Tunnel) as they would be too close to each other to avoid congestion.

It seems that any two that are separated could work, but some combos seem unlikely to me. For example, Long Tunnel and Short Tunnel would make sense in terms of both being tunnels, if they felt that was necessary, but the differences in lengths is huge and could be odd. And why are they not the same widths (minor point)?

I also think the most interesting thing about the drain plan is the open area with no structures or drainage. I know some have suggested there could be additional buildings coming that don't require drainage but I have a hard time understanding how any significant buildings in a space that big could not require drainage. Wouldn't a drinking fountain, water-bottle filling station, one-stall employee bathroom or break room require drainage connection? And even if the area is pegged for retail or meet and greet only, without F&B, given the remodel and building-function-changing history of Disney Parks, wouldn't they run a drain line to this areas now anyway to be safe? To me it's a signal this area will have an outdoor ride or a lagoon. We'll see.

But as far as pathways into and out of Villains Land, the other possibility is that only one of these options happens between HM-BTM and that a second path comes from Fantasyland, such as a covered bridge walkway here. Seeing that they are clearing the area behind iasw makes me wonder if a relocation of backstage functions is coming to make room. While this would be a significant -- and therefore -- unlikely project, it seems this is the way to truly alleviate congestion around accessing Villians Land.
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What a great post!
What do you make of the discrepancy in the two recent permits?
The storm run off permit from a few months ago shows drains running in a more directly northern direction to the east of the mysterious long “facility” and the most recent drain permit shows the utility running north west along BTM and to the west of the long “facility”.
Could this mean that there will be two divergent drain lines - one for storm water and one for utilities? And is it likely that they will both be under guest walk ways?

I tried to lay the two permits on top of one another to show what I mean…

 

[J4546]

that facility could be a large water pumping station for the area. Concept art looks like a pretty massive amount of water at the entrance pouring down into some unknown crater

 

[luv house of the mouse]

So I watched a youtube video from a fan that tried to explain how they could make the RR go thru a large tunnel behind BTMRR and add show scenes with show elements and AA's and then have a station in the N portion of Villains. My comment then was it would then become a C/D ticket ride and the would have issues with people just riding that thing and almost never getting off. The peoplemover makes you get off after one trip. With the size of the train route and the fact people get on and off at different locations would make this an issue. Imagine if folks would do this at Uni with the train between the Potter worlds if they were allowed to. I am all for having scene elements for the train but I think its purpose was to slightly entertain and just move folks around the park, not become a major ride. I hope I am wrong and they do make it like this but I don't see how it would work long term.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

My comment then was it would then become a C/D ticket ride and the would have issues with people just riding that thing and almost never getting off.

No, if that was an issue it would be WDW not wanting to operate enough trains to meet guest demand.

They can and have run 3 trains.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Could this mean that there will be two divergent drain lines - one for storm water and one for utilities? And is it likely that they will both be under guest walk ways?

The most recent drawing is for sanitary sewers, so yes, they are separate.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So I watched a youtube video from a fan that tried to explain how they could make the RR go thru a large tunnel behind BTMRR and add show scenes with show elements and AA's and then have a station in the N portion of Villains. My comment then was it would then become a C/D ticket ride and the would have issues with people just riding that thing and almost never getting off. The peoplemover makes you get off after one trip. With the size of the train route and the fact people get on and off at different locations would make this an issue. Imagine if folks would do this at Uni with the train between the Potter worlds if they were allowed to. I am all for having scene elements for the train but I think its purpose was to slightly entertain and just move folks around the park, not become a major ride. I hope I am wrong and they do make it like this but I don't see how it would work long term.

The Disneyland Railroads in Anaheim and Paris seem to operate just fine with big show scenes.

 

[James Alucobond]

Yes, but that doesn't make it garbage.

I was responding to someone who was saying that it was consistently being downgraded. I meant that it is more or less as bad and/or good as it always has been. I probably phrased that poorly, but when I said "garbage in terms of scenery" I meant "lacking in staged scenes to view", not that trees look like garbage.

 

[DrStarlander]

What a great post!
What do you make of the discrepancy in the two recent permits?
The storm run off permit from a few months ago shows drains running in a more directly northern direction to the east of the mysterious long “facility” and the most recent drain permit shows the utility running north west along BTM and to the west of the long “facility”.
Could this mean that there will be two divergent drain lines - one for storm water and one for utilities? And is it likely that they will both be under guest walk ways?

I tried to lay the two permits on top of one another to show what I mean…

View attachment 906527

Yeah, I'm stumped by all this. It's a fun mystery. I've advanced a theory the skinny building is for wet or dry float storage, or a long entry tunnel. I've seen the theory it could be for a coaster launch but I need some help understanding that one...

Here are my coaster launch theory issues: If it's a launch tube, the coaster has to do a turnaround before entering (purple half-circles), on the right or left. If this is all happening underground, then no issue. But then why wouldn't the structure be shown larger to show the rest of the turnaround, why just the straight-away? So assuming the turn arounds are not underground, then at #1 (in the markup below) they either cross over the sanitary sewers (very unlikely) and or impinge onto the space for a walkway both between HM and BTM, and a potential walkway on top of the sewer line toward Villains Land. So, it makes the right-side (east) turnaround more likely which puts more coaster in that several acre open area of the land. Which is fine, maybe it's the portion of coaster we see in the submerged section of the concept art. But the concept art also shows people walking along the right side of that water and that would require a walkway squeezed between the coaster/turnaround and the HM Facility (at #2), if the art is to be believed (I know). But, otherwise, why have a cool lagoon with submerged coaster if nobody is walking by to appreciate it? It's possible a walkway is squeezed in there, for sure, but tight. Not the "ease you into Villains Land" vibe I'd expect, it's like "wham!" before you even leave Piston Peak you're seeing and hearing a Villains rollercoaster a few feet away. Also, in any scenario that this is a coaster launch, a walkway needs to pass under the launch at the far end of the tube. Well, certainly if the walkway is on the left, atop the drain line (the Big Thunder Trail approach) and even if the walkway is on the other, east side, how could they not plan for a walkway off to the west, either backstage or to a possible hotel/expansion someday...and wouldn't it be atop the drain line? It's totally possible the coaster goes up overhead and the walkway goes under it, but that drain line hugs so tight to the skinny building at the north end. So, I have my doubts about the coaster launch tube. But who knows.

I'm starting to lean slightly toward the skinny building being dry float storage and the possibility the parade route is changing. Why would that be in the cards? Maybe if long term, the area to the west of Frontierland (between Tiana's and Pirates) is slated as a future area of expansion, say. Am I correct that floats are stored in the two-bay shed near Tiana's? If so, note it's 50 meters long and two bays, for 100 meters of storage. So, no shocker, the skinny building is single-bay and ~100 meters long. Maybe the new skinny structure will be doing double-duty as dry float storage and a visual berm between Villains Land and BTM.

 

[BrianLo]

Yeah, I'm stumped by all this. It's a fun mystery. I've advanced a theory the skinny building is for wet or dry float storage, or a long entry tunnel. I've seen the theory it could be for a coaster launch but I need some help understanding that one...

Here are my coaster launch theory issues: If it's a launch tube, the coaster has to do a turnaround before entering (purple half-circles), on the right or left. If this is all happening underground, then no issue. But then why wouldn't the structure be shown larger to show the rest of the turnaround, why just the straight-away? So assuming the turn arounds are not underground, then at #1 (in the markup below) they either cross over the sanitary sewers (very unlikely) and or impinge onto the space for a walkway both between HM and BTM, and a potential walkway on top of the sewer line toward Villains Land. So, it makes the right-side (east) turnaround more likely which puts more coaster in that several acre open area of the land. Which is fine, maybe it's the portion of coaster we see in the submerged section of the concept art. But the concept art also shows people walking along the right side of that water and that would require a walkway squeezed between the coaster/turnaround and the HM Facility (at #2), if the art is to be believed (I know). But, otherwise, why have a cool lagoon with submerged coaster if nobody is walking by to appreciate it? It's possible a walkway is squeezed in there, for sure, but tight. Not the "ease you into Villains Land" vibe I'd expect, it's like "wham!" before you even leave Piston Peak you're seeing and hearing a Villains rollercoaster a few feet away. Also, in any scenario that this is a coaster launch, a walkway needs to pass under the launch at the far end of the tube. Well, certainly if the walkway is on the left, atop the drain line (the Big Thunder Trail approach) and even if the walkway is on the other, east side, how could they not plan for a walkway off to the west, either backstage or to a possible hotel/expansion someday...and wouldn't it be atop the drain line? It's totally possible the coaster goes up overhead and the walkway goes under it, but that drain line hugs so tight to the skinny building at the north end. So, I have my doubts about the coaster launch tube. But who knows.

View attachment 906579

I'm starting to lean slightly toward the skinny building being dry float storage and the possibility the parade route is changing. Why would that be in the cards? Maybe if long term, the area to the west of Frontierland (between Tiana's and Pirates) is slated as a future area of expansion, say. Am I correct that floats are stored in the two-bay shed near Tiana's? If so, note it's 50 meters long and two bays, for 100 meters of storage. So, no shocker, the skinny building is single-bay and ~100 meters long. Maybe the new skinny structure will be doing double-duty as dry float storage and a visual berm between Villains Land and BTM.
View attachment 906580

I’m still not following the logic jumping toward other facilities when we already know of a potential one from the artwork. A guest pathway can also go overtop the trench, it’s below grade. We have several examples of this at Disney like Slinky or Incredicoaster.

I’m not saying the art is representative of the final product… but don’t the drain lines, match the arts pathways? One that goes overtop of the tunnel on one end and one potentially on the other.

Assume the artworks camera is set roughly above the purple dot. The redline could also be some sort of rock wall to provide separation.

 

[BrianLo]

A loosely made up coaster path for illustrative purposes with indoor and outdoor elements akin to Hagrids. This is after all what the artwork more or less showed, with the coaster out of frame on the right side of the land.

It could also return on the far left above ground too. With both of the pathways managing the majority of the traversal under the coaster when you enter whatever visual barrier it will use.

Edit - Ooph I forgot Tron and how much nonsense that would generate if we were trying to make sense of that with this weird granular half data.

 

[Conor.Nam15]

T

I’m still not following the logic jumping toward other facilities when we already know of a potential one from the artwork. A guest pathway can also go overtop the trench, it’s below grade. We have several examples of this at Disney like Slinky or Incredicoaster.

I’m not saying the art is representative of the final product… but don’t the drain lines, match the arts pathways? One that goes overtop of the tunnel on one end and one potentially on the other.


View attachment 906587View attachment 906586

Assume the artworks camera is set roughly above the purple dot. The redline could also be some sort of rock wall to provide separation.

This interpretation makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the insight.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'm starting to lean slightly toward the skinny building being dry float storage and the possibility the parade route is changing. Why would that be in the cards? Maybe if long term, the area to the west of Frontierland (between Tiana's and Pirates) is slated as a future area of expansion, say. Am I correct that floats are stored in the two-bay shed near Tiana's? If so, note it's 50 meters long and two bays, for 100 meters of storage. So, no shocker, the skinny building is single-bay and ~100 meters long. Maybe the new skinny structure will be doing double-duty as dry float storage and a visual berm between Villains Land and BTM.

Moving the parade just requires providing an access road. In additional to a storage building, you also need a lot of other facilities nearby. You need green rooms for all of the performers. You also need a big outdoor area for staging the parade before it starts. That’s a significant island of backstage space.

They also just don’t plan and coordinate projects that far ahead. If the current parade facilities are in an area that’s to become guest space, relocating those facilities would be part of that projects budget. Nobody wants to spend their project resources (especially when we’re talking a good bit of space and money) on someone else’s future maybe project.

 

[veritas55]

I'll join the chorus of having no idea what the skinny building is -- and not being able to line up the view point from the rough conceptual art (although I think the diagram posted above seems pretty compelling)

 

[Bocabear]

I was responding to someone who was saying that it was consistently being downgraded. I meant that it is more or less as bad and/or good as it always has been. I probably phrased that poorly, but when I said "garbage in terms of scenery" I meant "lacking in staged scenes to view", not that trees look like garbage.

but haven't a huge area that was formerly scrub forest just get bulldozed and leveled? So there really is not forest to ride through at this point... not for a portion of the ride anyway... Seems like this is an opportunity to really make something out of it...A Journey, not just transportation... With the ROA and all of it's scenery now completely gone, they are going to have to replace it with something....

 

[DrStarlander]

View attachment 906588

A loosely made up coaster path for illustrative purposes with indoor and outdoor elements akin to Hagrids. This is after all what the artwork more or less showed, with the coaster out of frame on the right side of the land.

It could also return on the far left above ground too. With both of the pathways managing the majority of the traversal under the coaster when you enter whatever visual barrier it will use.

Edit - Ooph I forgot Tron and how much nonsense that would generate if we were trying to make sense of that with this weird granular half data.

Sure, maybe you're right. I've had a hard time imagining that the coaster would have this much presence in the foreground as you enter the land.

 

[Gusey]

I do feel like skinny building is part of the rollercoaster, either a tunnel or (ideally) some kind of showscene like the dwarfs mine.