MK Piston Peak and Villains Land Construction Thread

[DrStarlander]

The Fantasyland entrances just aren’t practical. They’re either long and featureless (west of Small World) or interfere with major backstage elements like the main utilidor entrance (east of Small World, shown in the second-to-last shot above).

I agree it's unlikely, but I don't see it as impractical. It's typical for a pedestrian bridge on concrete supports to pass over functional parking, backstage, freight loading areas (or freeways) and because columns are fairly far apart, that they are located as to not be an obstacle.

The sweeping pedestrian bridge that Disney is building over Harbor Blvd. is an example of "when there's a will, there's a way." We've seen similar extraordinary efforts to facilitate expansion such as the raising of the utility road over the entrance tunnel into Fantasy Springs, or the Downtown Disney bridge in Anaheim.

I know I'm out on a limb with this FL path speculation, but I wouldn't suggest it so strongly if they weren't clearing the trees backstage there behind the VL structure we now know about...I don't know why they'd remove all the trees (not even leaving a buffer of trees along the RR tracks) unless something significant was also going to happen back there. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if outdoor portions of the roller coaster are going there and the train will pass by similar to its pass-by of BTM. That would make a bridge from Fantasyland much shorter as it would become a Big Thunder Trail-like coaster walk-by after a short 90 meters of covered bridge/tunnel:

 

[lazyboy97o]

Agreed, but without a second loop this expansion is going to be an absolute cluster. What about the bourgeois-looking restrooms themed to Tangled?

That’s in front of the corridor west of “it’s a small world” that he referenced.

And since @lentesta brought it up on his podcast again, I can save him some fruitless reading. The building codes regulate buildings, and to the extent that they regulate the area development it is only as it relates directly to a building. They don’t regulate the minimum width of walkways outdoors. Sixteen feet wide is about the absolute minimum that would be sufficient in the major central Florida parks, but how wide land walks are will be determined by an internal industrial engineering guest flow analysis and not be prescribed by code.

Building codes do have separation requirements between buildings, but these can get all the way down to no separation. Doing this just requires the provision of the required fire and life safety protections.

One code requirement that does impact walkway width is fire truck access to buildings. Florida Fire Prevention Code, NFPA 1, 18.2.3.2 requires a fire truck be able to get within 50’ of an exterior door and within 150’ of the exterior walls of the first floor. Section 18.2.3.5.1.1 requires a minimum width of 20’ for fire apparatus access roads but you can also ask for special permission to have a narrower road. A lot of walkways maintain 20’ minimums because they can then also provide access. Access though is determined by the park and can be changed (with approval). A guest walkway doesn’t have to double as a fire apparatus access road.

The code issue with the site is probably the restroom travel distance. There’s a maximum distance guests can be from restroom facilities. This is why TRON has its own bathroom. You’d have to maintain a restroom facility in the area.

The biggest problem is ultimately its size. Too narrow, too tall and way too long. A good guest corridor would be at least a football field in length and tall enough to block the show buildings. The width though means there isn’t space to do much that would be engaging. It’s a lot of money for a place you don’t really want or can have people spending time.

 

[DisneyDodo]

Most people seem to agree that Villains Land will not be a dead-end with a single entry/exit bottle neck. The question is whether the two access points will both be between Haunted Mansion and Big Thunder Mountain, and is that enough distance apart to alleviate congestion?

In that gap there seems to be four ways a path could go to Villains Land given the structures we've learned about. Going from west to east, with arguments for and against:

Big Thunder Trail
This is a known scenic format, seen at Disneyland (and similar to the walkway along Grizzly River Run and along Radiator Springs Racers at DCA), affords extended aesthetic appreciation of the kinetic BTM. The strongest argument for this possibility is that the drain lines are shown here and those often are under walkways. A second argument is that if one or more other paths are used, why the dead space left here? I guess there could be a backstage access road here if visibility was blocked while riding BTM.
View attachment 906173
Long Tunnel
The argument for this is that in recent immersive projects Disney has used tunnels to create transition separation, and that a narrow building like this within the park area would have few other uses (beyond wet or dry parade float storage). The argument against is that it's very long and straight rather than doglegged.

Open Path
An open -- non tunnel -- path is good to preserve parade access, and could be plenty atmospheric. It's also possible a tunnel could be located here but perhaps that type of structure doesn't need to be included on the drain plan.

Short Tunnel
This is what is typical with Disney's land-transition tunnels, as seen at DLP and DHS with SWGE. The argument against this structure being a short tunnel is that most people think an extended queue for Haunted Mansion is necessary to remove blockage to the HM-to-BTM path. This seems like the most likely spot for that queue.

Pick 2?
If there will be two ways in and out of Villains Land, what combos of these approaches could work? I don't think any two adjacent approaches would make sense (e.g., Big Thunder Trail and Long Tunnel, or Open Path and Short Tunnel) as they would be too close to each other to avoid congestion.

It seems that any two that are separated could work, but some combos seem unlikely to me. For example, Long Tunnel and Short Tunnel would make sense in terms of both being tunnels, if they felt that was necessary, but the differences in lengths is huge and could be odd. And why are they not the same widths (minor point)?

I also think the most interesting thing about the drain plan is the open area with no structures or drainage. I know some have suggested there could be additional buildings coming that don't require drainage but I have a hard time understanding how any significant buildings in a space that big could not require drainage. Wouldn't a drinking fountain, water-bottle filling station, one-stall employee bathroom or break room require drainage connection? And even if the area is pegged for retail or meet and greet only, without F&B, given the remodel and building-function-changing history of Disney Parks, wouldn't they run a drain line to this areas now anyway to be safe? To me it's a signal this area will have an outdoor ride or a lagoon. We'll see.

But as far as pathways into and out of Villains Land, the other possibility is that only one of these options happens between HM-BTM and that a second path comes from Fantasyland, such as a covered bridge walkway here. Seeing that they are clearing the area behind iasw makes me wonder if a relocation of backstage functions is coming to make room. While this would be a significant -- and therefore -- unlikely project, it seems this is the way to truly alleviate congestion around accessing Villians Land.
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My money is on the Open Path being the one and only entrance to Villains.

The Big Thunder Trail will be used for backstage access. The long thing building will contain a series of shops facing into Villains Land. And the smaller building will hold the HM extended queue.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I agree it's unlikely, but I don't see it as impractical. It's typical for a pedestrian bridge on concrete supports to pass over functional parking, backstage, freight loading areas (or freeways) and because columns are fairly far apart, that they are located as to not be an obstacle.

Long clear spans are also quite deep as shown in your image. According to the water management drawings for this project, the backstage lot in front of the utilidor entrance is at an elevation of +97’ while the main Fantasyland courtyard is at +112’. That’s only a 15’ difference. There’s no room for structure at that little of a height difference. You’d have to either expand the utilidors and move vehicle access or get guests up a good bit higher.

 

[Tha Realest]

They don’t regulate the minimum width of walkways outdoors. Sixteen feet wide is about the absolute minimum that would be sufficient in the major central Florida parks, but how wide land walks are will be determined by an internal industrial engineering guest flow analysis and not be prescribed by code.

Let’s hope the guys and gals in charge of plotting the run Disney courses aren’t in charge of the walkways into Villains Land!

 

[DrStarlander]

Long clear spans are also quite deep as shown in your image. According to the water management drawings for this project, the backstage lot in front of the utilidor entrance is at an elevation of +97’ while the main Fantasyland courtyard is at +112’. That’s only a 15’ difference. There’s no room for structure at that little of a height difference. You’d have to either expand the utilidors and move vehicle access or get guests up a good bit higher.

Very true. If vehicles need to get under there with 14' clearance it would need to be something like 18' floor to floor. While maybe they could achieve 1' in the park, they'd need to drop the entry/existing vehicle area by 2' and that could cause access inefficiency, ramps, etc. If they decked over that area like a parking garage for human/cast only and vehicles were pushed out further that would be the most likely way.

 

[lentesta]

That’s in front of the corridor west of “it’s a small world” that he referenced.

And since @lentesta brought it up on his podcast again, I can save him some fruitless reading. The building codes regulate buildings, and to the extent that they regulate the area development it is only as it relates directly to a building. They don’t regulate the minimum width of walkways outdoors. Sixteen feet wide is about the absolute minimum that would be sufficient in the major central Florida parks, but how wide land walks are will be determined by an internal industrial engineering guest flow analysis and not be prescribed by code.

Building codes do have separation requirements between buildings, but these can get all the way down to no separation. Doing this just requires the provision of the required fire and life safety protections.

Yeah, it looks like a lot of it is "the Building Official may require a walkway as wide as, in his opinion, is necessary", from section F-201.4. There's a minimum width of 4 feet, but that's not relevant here.

Where's the EPCOT building code reference for restroom distance? I see restrooms in the index but it seems to relate to plumbing and ventilation.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Yeah, it looks like a lot of it is "the Building Official may require a walkway as wide as, in his opinion, is necessary", from section F-201.4. There's a minimum width of 4 feet, but that's not relevant here.

Where's the EPCOT building code reference for restroom distance? I see restrooms in the index but it seems to relate to plumbing and ventilation.

Appendix F in the old code format was specifically related to public access through areas under construction.

The travel distance requirement for restrooms is 403.3.3 of the 2024 EPCOT Plumbing Code. This also applies to the other park operators as Florida Building Code - Plumbing upon which the latest EPCOT codes are based has the same requirement in the same section.

 

[Rosso11]

Most people seem to agree that Villains Land will not be a dead-end with a single entry/exit bottle neck. The question is whether the two access points will both be between Haunted Mansion and Big Thunder Mountain, and is that enough distance apart to alleviate congestion?

In that gap there seems to be four ways a path could go to Villains Land given the structures we've learned about. Going from west to east, with arguments for and against:

Big Thunder Trail
This is a known scenic format, seen at Disneyland (and similar to the walkway along Grizzly River Run and along Radiator Springs Racers at DCA), affords extended aesthetic appreciation of the kinetic BTM. The strongest argument for this possibility is that the drain lines are shown here and those often are under walkways. A second argument is that if one or more other paths are used, why the dead space left here? I guess there could be a backstage access road here if visibility was blocked while riding BTM.
View attachment 906173
Long Tunnel
The argument for this is that in recent immersive projects Disney has used tunnels to create transition separation, and that a narrow building like this within the park area would have few other uses (beyond wet or dry parade float storage). The argument against is that it's very long and straight rather than doglegged.

Open Path
An open -- non tunnel -- path is good to preserve parade access, and could be plenty atmospheric. It's also possible a tunnel could be located here but perhaps that type of structure doesn't need to be included on the drain plan.

Short Tunnel
This is what is typical with Disney's land-transition tunnels, as seen at DLP and DHS with SWGE. The argument against this structure being a short tunnel is that most people think an extended queue for Haunted Mansion is necessary to remove blockage to the HM-to-BTM path. This seems like the most likely spot for that queue.

Pick 2?
If there will be two ways in and out of Villains Land, what combos of these approaches could work? I don't think any two adjacent approaches would make sense (e.g., Big Thunder Trail and Long Tunnel, or Open Path and Short Tunnel) as they would be too close to each other to avoid congestion.

It seems that any two that are separated could work, but some combos seem unlikely to me. For example, Long Tunnel and Short Tunnel would make sense in terms of both being tunnels, if they felt that was necessary, but the differences in lengths is huge and could be odd. And why are they not the same widths (minor point)?

I also think the most interesting thing about the drain plan is the open area with no structures or drainage. I know some have suggested there could be additional buildings coming that don't require drainage but I have a hard time understanding how any significant buildings in a space that big could not require drainage. Wouldn't a drinking fountain, water-bottle filling station, one-stall employee bathroom or break room require drainage connection? And even if the area is pegged for retail or meet and greet only, without F&B, given the remodel and building-function-changing history of Disney Parks, wouldn't they run a drain line to this areas now anyway to be safe? To me it's a signal this area will have an outdoor ride or a lagoon. We'll see.

But as far as pathways into and out of Villains Land, the other possibility is that only one of these options happens between HM-BTM and that a second path comes from Fantasyland, such as a covered bridge walkway here. Seeing that they are clearing the area behind iasw makes me wonder if a relocation of backstage functions is coming to make room. While this would be a significant -- and therefore -- unlikely project, it seems this is the way to truly alleviate congestion around accessing Villians Land.
View attachment 906164

View attachment 906166

I might be off but isn’t another option to enter Villains land be an entrance underneath the Frontierland train station around Big Thunder? I thought part of Park Ops request was to get rid of the dead end by Big Thunder? They will probably need to relocate the bathrooms there but that’s not a huge deal. This would solve multiple problems.

 

[Tha Realest]

It’s kind of hilarious that they got rid of the ROA and TSI to make things easier to get to/from Villains Land and yet the collective hive mind here is still grasping how a proper crowd flow will work without more extensive work being done.

 

[James Alucobond]

I might be off but isn’t another option to enter Villains land be an entrance underneath the Frontierland train station around Big Thunder? I thought part of Park Ops request was to get rid of the dead end by Big Thunder? They will probably need to relocate the bathrooms there but that’s not a huge deal. This would solve multiple problems.

Big Thunder > Piston Peak > Haunted Mansion will now be a loop, with a northern passage to Villains above them. It was believed they might make use of the toward-the-restroom path north beyond the Frontierland train station when speculation was that they could build "behind" Thunder to the west, but that's not what's happening. I guess they could still connect it, but I think it'd likely end up kind of hidden and sparingly used, like the Storybook Circus-to-Tomorrowland connection. Why circle behind Thunder Mountain to get to Tiana's/Frontierland Station when you could either just go north to the presumed Villains train station or walk past the eastern side of Big Thunder to get to Tiana's instead of circumnavigating the west?

 

[Rosso11]

Big Thunder > Piston Peak > Haunted Mansion will now be a loop, with a northern passage to Villains above them. It was believed they might make use of the toward-the-restroom path north beyond the Frontierland train station when speculation was that they could build "behind" Thunder to the west, but that's not what's happening. I guess they could still connect it, but I think it'd likely end up kind of hidden and sparingly used, like the Storybook Circus-to-Tomorrowland connection. Why circle behind Thunder Mountain to get to Tiana's/Frontierland Station when you could either just go north to the presumed Villains train station or walk past the eastern side of Big Thunder to get to Tiana's instead of circumnavigating the west?

Because they plan to expand further back there in the future where the laydown yards are now. This would make that space easier to access in the future.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Not sure why a connection by BTMRR and another by HM wouldn’t occur. Those two would be further apart than the two breezeways between Frontierland and Adventureland.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

It’s kind of hilarious that they got rid of the ROA and TSI to make things easier to get to/from Villains Land and yet the collective hive mind here is still grasping how a proper crowd flow will work without more extensive work being done.

Visiting DLP again made me appreciate how well that park is designed for crowd flow, without sacrificing aesthetics or removing things like the RoA, Autopia, their equivalent to TSI etc

 

[BrianLo]

Why does everyone think Villains land requires a 100m entrance path? Won’t it just start beyond the threshold of piston peak? Which has two pathways: HM or Big Thunder.

 

[DrStarlander]

Not sure why a connection by BTMRR and another by HM wouldn’t occur. Those two would be further apart than the two breezeways between Frontierland and Adventureland.

If the square "facility" next to HM is a tunnel into VL that could work. If that building is not a tunnel, and is, say, a queue for HM, then it pushes the "two" entries to Villains Land so close together they could act as one congestion point, especially right outside Piston Peak which will also be very high trafficked. They certainly could do this, but if it's a jam-packed bottlenecked mess, a lot of people will say "you should have known better!"

I also don't think Frontierland/Adventureland is an analogous situation because there are three connections between those lands and each also has an outlet to the Hub and elsewhere, so it's a permeable barrier with plenty of pressure release. I think Villains Land as it relates to the HM-to-BTM crossway is a different situation.

Why does everyone think Villains land requires a 100m entrance path? Won’t it just start beyond the threshold of piston peak? Which has two pathways: HM or Big Thunder.

I don't think that long skinny building is shops, etc. I can't find anything like that in Disney Parks so far in terms of that shallow of retail extending for that long, dead straight. So if they're not shops, etc., the path to the heart of Villains Land (where the buildings are) seems to be over 100m by virtue of where they're showing the buildings relative to the likely crossover path between HM and BTM. That is, I don't think people (including myself) are saying "creatively" or subjectively it needs to be a long drawn out walkway, but if we're seeing where the land's buildings are, they are back there a ways.

 

[BrianLo]

I don't think that long skinny building is shops, etc. I can't find anything like that in Disney Parks so far in terms of that shallow of retail extending for that long, dead straight. So if they're not shops, etc., the path to the heart of Villains Land (where the buildings are) seems to be over 100m by virtue of where they're showing the buildings relative to the likely crossover path between HM and BTM. That is, I don't think people (including myself) are saying "creatively" or subjectively it needs to be a long drawn out walkway, but if we're seeing where the land's buildings are, they are back there a ways.

I think it’s a coaster tunnel. Maybe the one piece of art is a misdirect, but we were expecting a recess at the front of the land.

 

[James Alucobond]

Not sure why a connection by BTMRR and another by HM wouldn’t occur. Those two would be further apart than the two breezeways between Frontierland and Adventureland.

Why does everyone think Villains land requires a 100m entrance path? Won’t it just start beyond the threshold of piston peak? Which has two pathways: HM or Big Thunder.

I'm guessing people are just taking the initial Cars art as somewhat indicative of the plan, which has one path going north to Villains, offset from the Piston Peak path south, with additional paths east to the Mansion and west to Thunder. That said, while I obviously don't do traffic flow analysis, it feels like a lot less of a problem (psychologically) than the Big Thunder dead end even if that's what happens. Big Thunder is a terminus with nothing but a single ride, so you can't really organically swing by it on your way to other things since going up to it and thinking better of it forces a bit of a double-back to do anything else at all. Villains, by contrast, will have its own internal loop of a few things to see or do.

 

[Pizza Moon]

Visiting DLP again made me appreciate how well that park is designed for crowd flow, without sacrificing aesthetics or removing things like the RoA, Autopia, their equivalent to TSI etc

It really is impressive.

It’s like a plussed version of all the OG castle parks.

 

[James Alucobond]

Because they plan to expand further back there in the future where the laydown yards are now. This would make that space easier to access in the future.

I don't think there's any reason to believe this is happening in the near term, and even if something does end up getting built back there in less than a decade or two, I can almost guarantee they haven't thought far enough in advance to know how they ought to design the connection to support future work with no existing plans.