News Guest dies, found unresponsive after riding Stardust Racers

[networkpro]

Do we limit safety systems to only things we knew about before?
Do we limit safety systems to say "well, we don't need to do anything about that because we told people don't do it"?

Systems are designed to try to minimize injury even in the face of 'stupid human tricks' aka the public who don't listen.

Yes, ultimately you can't prevent everything - but we sure go a long way to stopping what might be preventable or at least minimized.

So nanny state with no sharp corners because people are too stupid not to look at the sun or stand in the rain with their mouths open ? Ridged physical parameters to allow access to anything ?

 

[flynnibus]

They’re designed for limited access by foot. They’re not designed for quick access by paramedics. It’s not just monitoring that would be needed, but significantly more infrastructure for access and use.

But the point is it gives you the option - instead of 'well, just keep running them through the ringer until we get to the end'. They don't have e-stops just to prevent collisions. Every decision of course is weighed for pros vs cons.. but then at least you have the option.

You’d also have to have these mid-points staffed so that there is someone present to direct riders. A big reason it is preferable to unload guests at the load station is that stopped guests can and do react erratically. You don’t want guests trying to get out to assist while they’re waiting for someone to arrive.

Yet, the hold spots exist with this concern there already without staffing - not really a deal breaker IMO. At least in this situation you could communicate with guests and assess.

Imagine if a restraint failed.. the ride could at least be stopped instead of "well, I hope they make it to the end!"

The big benefit to greater on-ride monitoring would be to be able to prep the load area and call for assistance.

It's a benefit for sure.

 

[flynnibus]

So nanny state with no sharp corners because people are too stupid not to look at the sun or stand in the rain with their mouths open ? Ridged physical parameters to allow access to anything ?

Removing your hyperbolic claims... if you are asking "should we protect the public from themselves?" - The answer is yes.

 

[flynnibus]

@flynnibus I think you are getting into the weeds here. Stardust has a 90 second ride cycle, learning of something a minute or less sooner isn’t going to change an outcome. This ride has its most forceful moments in its opening 30 seconds, assuming the ride is functioning properly (and if it’s not then it should be e-stopped) it’s almost always better to complete the ride cycle and get the injured back to the platform where help can be administered far quicker. I think you are using a long dark ride mindset to apply to a ride that cycles an order of magnitude faster. Your system would be great for SSE but not a roller coaster.

and I think you are only looking at the dimension of TIME -- and not what continuing the ride may mean to the situation at hand. A simple example.. a failed restraint. You don't say "well, just get them back to the station and we'll deal with the outcome" - They stop the ride because preventing further harm from the ride is worth the risk of stranding guests or stopping operations, etc.

Today, the ride systems are designed to monitor and react to these kinds of conditions. My thereom was, can do better than what they do today which is video monitoring from afar and effectively zero way to monitor guests.

 

[Touchdown]

and I think you are only looking at the dimension of TIME -- and not what continuing the ride may mean to the situation at hand. A simple example.. a failed restraint. You don't say "well, just get them back to the station and we'll deal with the outcome" - They stop the ride because preventing further harm from the ride is worth the risk of stranding guests or stopping operations, etc.

Today, the ride systems are designed to monitor and react to these kinds of conditions. My thereom was, can do better than what they do today which is video monitoring from afar and effectively zero way to monitor guests.

Short of a mechanical failure (which you state we already monitor for on rides.) I do not foresee an incident where returning to the platform isn’t the way to go. Stopping at the first launch saves you 30 seconds of ride time that’s it. Stopping at even a staffed block break is going to delay your care by well over 30 seconds.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But the point is it gives you the option - instead of 'well, just keep running them through the wringer until we get to the end'. They don't have e-stops just to prevent collisions. Every decision of course is weighed for pros vs cons.. but then at least you have the option.

and I think you are only looking at the dimension of TIME -- and not what continuing the ride may mean to the situation at hand.

Because time is an overwhelmingly major component of responding to a medical emergency.

Yet, the hold spots exist with this concern there already without staffing - not really a deal breaker IMO. At least in this situation you could communicate with guests and assess.

Yes, they exist, but it’s considered best to avoid their use if possible. This very incident involved a doctor hopping a fence, which is generally not safe, to render aid. People are going to listen to the person screaming for help, not the intercom telling them to wait and do nothing.

 

[flynnibus]

People are going to listen to the person screaming for help, not the intercom telling them to wait and do nothing.

And do what? Chew their legs off to get out?

Come on - people being stranded in ride vehicles happens every year.

Always better to err to safety than "well, that was inconvenient so we just kept it cycling"

 

[lazyboy97o]

And do what? Chew their legs off to get out?

Come on - people being stranded in ride vehicles happens every year.

Always better to err to safety than "well, that was inconvenient so we just kept it cycling"

You’re not erring to safety. Not having guests stopped out on the ride is considered safest. Minimal response time to a medical emergency is considered safest. So this isn’t just inconvenient, it’s less safe.

 

[TalkToEthan]

. People are going to listen to the person screaming for help, not the intercom telling them to wait and do nothing.

……today, neither is the most likely action/inaction

expect extending a hand out; not to help unload but to grip a phone and upload

 

[flynnibus]

You’re not erring to safety.

It is, it allows you to interject if the terms deem it prudent... and the outcome can be to resume and reset.. or tend to the incident at hand while others wait. Where it goes from there depends on the response needed. Point is, it gives you the option, where today we are literally putting our head in the sand saying "just send it" is always going to be the lesser of evils.

Not having guests stopped out on the ride is considered safest. Minimal response time to a medical emergency is considered safest. So this isn’t just inconvenient, it’s less safe.

If given the choice of evacing a train or risking death.. we know they are going to evac. Anything inbetween should be assessed as needed for the situation.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It is, it allows you to interject if the terms deem it prudent... and the outcome can be to resume and reset.. or tend to the incident at hand while others wait. Where it goes from there depends on the response needed. Point is, it gives you the option, where today we are literally putting our head in the sand saying "just send it" is always going to be the lesser of evils.

If given the choice of evacing a train or risking death.. we know they are going to evac. Anything inbetween should be assessed as needed for the situation.

Recognizing that time is overwhelmingly more important in most situations is not putting one’s head in the sand. It’s recognizing that creating more risk doesn’t somehow reduce risk. “Just send it” isn’t just the lesser of evils, in most cases it is critical to improving outcomes because it is reducing response time. An operator isn’t going to be able to tell why a person is rag dolling and if it is an edge case where stopping movement may be more important than reducing response time.

 

[Jon81uk]

Removing your hyperbolic claims... if you are asking "should we protect the public from themselves?" - The answer is yes.

And Universal have already done this by increasing the restrictions on who can ride.

 

[flynnibus]

An operator isn’t going to be able to tell why a person is rag dolling and if it is an edge case where stopping movement may be more important than reducing response time.

That assumes a rider 'rag dolling' is safe enough to proceed... a scenario that seems to be unclear if the designers are designing for that.

While it maybe an edge case, not all safety systems are designed for every use case - they are used when appropriate.

 

[lazyboy97o]

That assumes a rider 'rag dolling' is safe enough to proceed... a scenario that seems to be unclear if the designers are designing for that.

While it maybe an edge case, not all safety systems are designed for every use case - they are used when appropriate.

It is a recognition of the fact that shortest response time for qualified assistance is the overwhelming best way to improve emergency medical outcomes in the widest variety of situations. It’s why calling for help is a priority in administering first aid. Whether or not a situation would not have been negatively impacted by a delayed response is something that’s going to be seen in hindsight, not the moment.

 

[Touchdown]

Roller Coasters almost always have their most forceful elements at the beginning of the ride. If a ride is going to kill you it’s going to kill you at the beginning. Stopping midway for an injury is only going to delay care, the worst is litterally behind them in most cases. You have minutes to save a brain in cardiac arrest, stopping not in the station will virtually guarantee you miss that window.

 

[maxairmike]

The system has multiple blocks - not just the launches and final brakes. it can run up to four trains simultaneously on each track.

All but 1 (maybe 2 if the mid-ride launch includes a 2nd block, which I doubt) of those blocks is at the start/end of the ride. Load, transfer/1st launch (these could be 1 block or 2 depending on how they designed it), 2nd launch, hold, unload, and potentially a 2nd holding zone in the final brake approach. So 5-7 blocks, and the only place to stop after the ride has started is the 2nd launch, otherwise clear the station and bring it in.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Roller Coasters almost always have their most forceful elements at the beginning of the ride. If a ride is going to kill you it’s going to kill you at the beginning. Stopping midway for an injury is only going to delay care, the worst is litterally behind them in most cases. You have minutes to save a brain in cardiac arrest, stopping not in the station will virtually guarantee you miss that window.

Hadn't thought of that bur you're right. Can paramedics get to a ride station or an elevated, mid-course brake section faster?

 

[Touchdown]

Hadn't thought of that bur you're right. Can paramedics get to a ride station or an elevated, mid-course brake section faster?

Ride station, most parks can get an ambulance pretty darn close and stations that are elevated have elevators to bring up the stretcher. Where a station truely shines though is the availability of extra staff/good smaritans to start CPR and almost certainly having a defibrillator nearby. A cardiac arrest is far more likely to be saved if CPR is started before they get there.

Also, because it seems like a good place to plug it, I would urge every single one of you reading this thread to seek out a CPR training course and take it, most of the time it’s free and less then 2 hours. It’s shocking how few people do, and knowing what to do can literally save a life. I may be in health care but I knew CPR/Basic Life Support well before I was from Boy Scouts.

If you need a selfish reason (which I hope you don’t) you will not believe the emotional high you get after you’ve successfully saved someone (I have successfully preformed the Himlich maneuver to save someone chocking to death.) Learning that (along with CPR, using an AED, and recognizing the signs of a stroke) are all covered in the course. Almost all of the people I see further down the line in the hospital who make it through these events can easily point to a person(s) who took a course and heroically intervened at a crucial moment to save their life. Please become one of us! You never know when or who you may be able to save.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Where a station truely shines though is the availability of extra staff/good smaritans to start CPR and almost certainly having a defibrillator nearby.

Which we now know occurred with this very incident with the doctor who responded. There’s no chance of that happening at a mid-course stop.