Epic Universe is the lowest rated theme park in Orlando

[mergatroid]

I need to be driven quite a long way to onboard me to your hypothesis. I am slightly open, but I need a ton more data. For our purposes I'm going to currently use AP as more synonymous with a local; the Disneyland or USR bread and butter local.

An AP is perhaps using free parking or being dropped off. An AP is not staying in a hotel. An AP is not purchasing the high margin items, like lightening lane, single pass or the whales buying the premium passes. An AP is certainly not buying a wand for the 20th time. These are high margin things that APs avoid.

As far as merch - we might have a weird spectrum there. Some collector subtypes perhaps. But many others don't exactly need another Mickey stuffy, lightsaber or wand.

I really do not think APs spend more per hour consumption park time as a result.

Are they good for food and beverage? Perhaps, but still non-APs are somewhat stuck in the ecosystem of 3 meals a day, not one.

Completely agree. As a regular AP holder from the UK over the last 20 odd years I can only speak for myself. I rarely buy merchandise from the parks (if ever). I also rarely buy food from the parks as with going many times on my 2-3 weeks visits, we usually get there before opening and leave about 1pm and grab lunch on the way home. Alternatively we may arrive after 5 and stay till 11pm having eaten before we go. An AP allows us to save money (a lot less now than years ago) but obviously I can only speak for myself.

 

[mkt]

I need to be driven quite a long way to onboard me to your hypothesis. I am slightly open, but I need a ton more data.

i’m not doxxing myself or risking my employment to provide you with that data

 

[mkt]

Completely agree. As a regular AP holder from the UK over the last 20 odd years I can only speak for myself. I rarely buy merchandise from the parks (if ever). I also rarely buy food from the parks as with going many times on my 2-3 weeks visits, we usually get there before opening and leave about 1pm and grab lunch on the way home. Alternatively we may arrive after 5 and stay till 11pm having eaten before we go. An AP allows us to save money (a lot less now than years ago) but obviously I can only speak for myself.

Your patterns align more with normal tourists than most APholders given your distance.

Most visitors from blighty are not APholders and instead buy UK only tickets that are sold at a deep discount or not offered in the US.

 

[BrianLo]

i’m not doxxing myself or risking my employment to provide you with that data

Huh? I was not definitely not asking for anything personal. We should be able to find at least something to publicly hang onto.
Plenty of corporate earning statements, calls and industry analysis for decades on these companies.

Disney have previously told us annual passholders are an undesirable attendance mix. My presumption is that you personally might feel you spend more, but I don’t think your experience matches the median annual local passholder spend.

Which again, does not mean my arguement is that “undesirable” equates to invaluable or non-strategic. Annual passholders have their important role in a well functioning ecosystem.

 

[mkt]

Disney have previously told us annual passholders are an undesirable attendance mix. My presumption is that you personally might feel you spend more, but I don’t think your experience matches the median annual local passholder spend.

All I can say is that I’ve sat in operational meetings where the value that APs create for the company is openly discussed.
What I’m referring to are the numbers: the average guest count in WDW or UO at any given time, the maximum capacity of the resorts (which shows what percent of guests are onsite at resorts vs offsite/local), the behavioral trends across different categories of guests (which ticket = which behavior), and - ultimately - whether park admission is actually a loss leader for the companies or not.

 

[Tom Morrow]

APs are probably what keep the table service restaurants filled. Most non-locals with limited time in the parks don't waste time at many table service meals.

 

[Disstevefan1]

All I can say is that I’ve sat in operational meetings where the value that APs create for the company is openly discussed.
What I’m referring to are the numbers: the average guest count in WDW or UO at any given time, the maximum capacity of the resorts (which shows what percent of guests are onsite at resorts vs offsite/local), the behavioral trends across different categories of guests (which ticket = which behavior), and - ultimately - whether park admission is actually a loss leader for the companies or not.

As someone from the outside, it sure feels that Disney’s focus is per capita spending in the parks, not attendance (anymore). I am not sure about Universal.

 

[mkt]

As someone from the outside, it sure feels that Disney’s focus is per capita spending in the parks, not attendance (anymore). I am not sure about Universal.

The focus for both is to increase spending - period.

The strategies are different. Universal's using a carrot, Disney's using a stick.

 

[BrianLo]

All I can say is that I’ve sat in operational meetings where the value that APs create for the company is openly discussed.
What I’m referring to are the numbers: the average guest count in WDW or UO at any given time, the maximum capacity of the resorts (which shows what percent of guests are onsite at resorts vs offsite/local), the behavioral trends across different categories of guests (which ticket = which behavior), and - ultimately - whether park admission is actually a loss leader for the companies or not.

There’s a large difference between valuable and the most valuable. If they are the most valuable, why has Universal elected to preclude them and is first focused on extending Epic ticket discounting to encourage tourist length of stay?

Full priced ticketing cannot be a loss leader, or the entire model of after hours parties wouldn’t have any economic sense.

I’d also reference Maxpass, with its anemic 10$ introductory pricing that APs largely sat out from. In retrospect, an amazing offering. APs actively circumvent themselves from upcharges even with extremely low barriers to entry.

APs are probably what keep the table service restaurants filled. Most non-locals with limited time in the parks don't waste time at many table service meals.

Yes, I certainly think dining is a big part. Something like burning blade seems almost exclusively made for passholders. Some of the newer themed bar offerings likewise. Though they aren’t propping up the high margin character dining.

APs have their major role and I will emphasize they aren’t monomorphic. A blogger like Tom Bricker still probably gives oodles of money to Disney. I’m honed in on a California local that treats DLR like their local mall. They prop up orange Julius (or dining), but they aren’t the main revenue whales.

 

[BrianLo]

As someone from the outside, it sure feels that Disney’s focus is per capita spending in the parks, not attendance (anymore). I am not sure about Universal.

I think Universals main goal for now remains increasing length of stay.

 

[mkt]

There’s a large difference between valuable and the most valuable. If they are the most valuable, why has Universal elected to preclude them and is first focused on extending Epic ticket discounting to encourage tourist length of stay?

Full priced ticketing cannot be a loss leader, or the entire model of after hours parties wouldn’t have any economic sense.

I’d also reference Maxpass, with its anemic 10$ introductory pricing that APs largely sat out from. In retrospect, an amazing offering. APs actively circumvent themselves from upcharges even with extremely low barriers to entry.



Yes, I certainly think dining is a big part. Something like burning blade seems almost exclusively made for passholders. Some of the newer themed bar offerings likewise. Though they aren’t propping up the high margin character dining.

APs have their major role and I will emphasize they aren’t monomorphic. A blogger like Tom Bricker still probably gives oodles of money to Disney. I’m honed in on a California local that treats DLR like their local mall. They prop up orange Julius (or dining), but they aren’t the main revenue whales.

You might be missing the context when the original person who caused this discussion, refers to an annual passholders as “freeloaders”

 

[BrianLo]

You might be missing the context when the original person who caused this discussion, refers to an annual passholders as “freeloaders”

Not at all. I have been very clear from my first post that I don’t agree with Donnie, but that doesn’t mean APs are the most valuable pool in the attendance mix either.

His extreme rhetoric doesn’t require an equal counter retort.

 

[mkt]

I think Universals main goal for now remains increasing length of stay.

This is accurate.

I think once Epic's expansion is completed, and they've managed to improve the connection between both campuses of their resort, they'll successfully hit the weeklong threshold.

They're close though. Super close. If someone were to ask me how many days for Universal right now, I'd tell them 5.

 

[maxairmike]

There’s a large difference between valuable and the most valuable. If they are the most valuable, why has Universal elected to preclude them and is first focused on extending Epic ticket discounting to encourage tourist length of stay?

Because they know they don’t have the operational capacity in the park, and the primary goal with Epic is increasing length of stay, which requires prioritizing the traditional tourist ticket structure at the expense of APs (some of which are also otherwise “traditional tourists”) to ensure that range of tickets has 99.999% guaranteed access to the park. I don’t know why there’s much question or debate around it, it seems pretty straightforward to me. They don’t really have a great choice with their goals around Epic.

I don’t think APs are the “most valuable” demo in general, but I wouldn’t doubt that they potentially are in some more targeted but very important areas. And this approach by Universal does have potentially large risks that we could begin to see consequences of in a few months at the earliest, although maybe not until the fall or next holiday season. Are AP holders at large content being frozen out of Epic unless they’re paying for day tickets, or will they be annoyed enough to not renew and the churn will be larger than normal across this year resulting in net less APs? Once you lose them, it’s harder to bring them back without a very appealing carrot. If they decide they see enough softness in the evenings at Epic to want to offer an evening admission option on APs*, it might be enough to retain those whose renewal window hasn’t yet come around (or are lazy and on the FlexPay system like me), but is it a big enough carrot to bring back people that let their APs go already, or have they been lost until full(er) access to Epic is available/announced?

*Yes this is absolutely wishful thinking on my part. Let me dream.

 

[Minnesota disney fan]

This is accurate.

I think once Epic's expansion is completed, and they've managed to improve the connection between both campuses of their resort, they'll successfully hit the weeklong threshold.

They're close though. Super close. If someone were to ask me how many days for Universal right now, I'd tell them 5.

We're booked for 6 days next year. I could stay longer if possible.

 

[Andrew C]

We're booked for 6 days next year. I could stay longer if possible.

I too have a 6 night stay for next year.

 

[mkt]

We're booked for 6 days next year. I could stay longer if possible.

I too have a 6 night stay for next year.

I love to see that.

 

[Mr. Sullivan]

I don’t know maybe I should be a little more sympathetic to these people, but if you go to a theme park in it’s opening a year and walk away surprised that there are operational issues with it I feel like that’s kind of on you. The rides are breaking down and there’s a long wait times and the staff is not as accustomed to dealing with these things yet? Is that really a shock? Could you really not have predicted that walking into a brand new theme park?

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I don’t know maybe I should be a little more sympathetic to these people, but if you go to a theme park in it’s opening a year and walk away surprised that there are operational issues with it I feel like that’s kind of on you. The rides are breaking down and there’s a long wait times and the staff is not as accustomed to dealing with these things yet? Is that really a shock? Could you really not have predicted that walking into a brand new theme park?

Perhaps to an extent, but it's not like they charge a discounted rate for the first year because they are still sorting out the operational issues. I would agree if you were referring to the preview period, which is when most of these issues are supposed to be ironed out. I don't think the main issues that people are mentioning are even especially related to teething problems, though. For example, rides closing during bad weather and general capacity issues have more to do with design choices.

 

[tommyhawkins]

In regards to the AP discussion. It's pretty clear in international theme parks, that different demographics in combination contribute collectively towards efficiency of any park with groups bring different things to the table that drive profitability.

In regards to the problems Epic is facing, I wrote about it in depth Here, but to me it's obvious that in the first year adding another spinning plate through APs where the financial benefit does not outweigh the problem adding extra demands created.
The takeaway from all of it, is the park probably could have done with opening in Autumn 2025 but that meant missing on summer revenue that would help Uni spend their way out of the capacity problems, and delay further expansion, I talk about it in the article but just because Orlando is somewhat of Theme park capital of the world doesn't mean opening a brand new park is any easier there.

A few questions cross my mind, I promise they're not loaded to make any kind of point:

If Disney had built the exact same type of park, with same attractions and capacity issues, would Disney fans have given it a first year pass or judged it even more harshly?

Secondly, if universal had actually opened Epic Universe in Texas, a brand new location and we're building from zero, would they be judged less harshly?