News Bruce Vaughn Returns to Disney as Co-Lead of Walt Disney Imagineering

[DisneyHead123]

The big issue is the barn itself is terribly out of scale and not in theme with either the mansion, New Orleans or Tianas.

That I can't speak to, never been to DL (Although frantically saving for a quick trip now since I found out the Queen Mary is out there, lol!) If it wasn't built to scale that's obviously a problem though.

The AI art was the most obvious “we don’t care” example of the entire project.

Again, just my take, but I think that's one conclusion out of many possible conclusions. Also possible a young designer had a Redbubble fangirl / boy moment (or their friend owned that shop, or whatever), and in their 20-something wisdom thought it would be such a cool nod to include that piece (said because that's exactly what I would have thought in my 20s). And Kim Irvine declined to throw them under the bus, knowing they are a dedicated if young artist. Or maybe it was just laziness. I'm just saying in the internet era it's easy to read this big story into what is really just a single picture in a crowded Disney store.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Now what the internal impact of that would have been, I have no idea - I don't know the ins and outs of Disney culture. But I'm sure it was another major change, in addition to Covid and streaming.

The studio business was reorganized, not the parks business.

Again, just my take, but I think that's one conclusion out of many possible conclusions. Also possible a young designer had a Redbubble fangirl / boy moment (or their friend owned that shop, or whatever), and in their 20-something wisdom thought it would be such a cool nod to include that piece (said because that's exactly what I would have thought in my 20s). And Kim Irvine declined to throw them under the bus, knowing they are a dedicated if young artist. Or maybe it was just laziness. I'm just saying in the internet era it's easy to read this big story into what is really just a single picture in a crowded Disney store.

A friend owning the shop would be an ethical issue, so not a good explanation.

Not everything in such a setting is a custom piece. Many items are purchased props, but acquiring props is a process. A junior designer isn’t just handed the company credit card. At a minimum pieces need to be approved by the art director before being installed.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

That I can't speak to, never been to DL

there are plenty of photos available.

It, along with the Fountain of Nations, is completely unjustified - the biggest blunders I could possibly think of.

 

[HMF]

Kim’s response to that really made me think less of her. Still very disappointed.

I still don't buy that the concept of a black-widow Bride is any less socially acceptable now than it was twenty years ago especially with the Ghost Host still hanging around.

 

[DisneyHead123]

The studio business was reorganized, not the parks business.

Ah, ok.

A friend owning the shop would be an ethical issue, so not a good explanation.

If the person paid for it, but many AI designs are open for anyone to use.

Not everything in such a setting is a custom piece. Many items are purchased props, but acquiring props is a process. A junior designer isn’t just handed the company credit card. At a minimum pieces need to be approved by the art director before being installed.

I dunno, maybe I’m a bad fan, but I’m not bothered by this. It just strikes me as a case of things seeming more important than they are when Reddit gets involved. It’s one open use picture that was used elsewhere. That’s just my take, of course.

 

[Comped]

Lake Nona was a giant loss, both for Disney and Orlando. Disney should have persevered, but bowed to internal pressure (more than external) and left what would have been a revolutionary project for them in the long term. Moving to Orlando would have significantly improved WDI. I'm much more disappointed that many in the old guard took what should have been an issue about uprooting livelihoods and lifetimes, and made it political. Partly because none of those same people have spoken out against DLAD (or taken their cheques from Miral), despite similar (or even worse) issues.

But I'm most upset because it would have been a massive home run for Orlando, which has suffered massively since TAIT effectively vacuumed up the major 3rd party design studios, laid off tons, and distributed much of the work that formerly went through their Orlando offices elsewhere (particularly PA, but also various other locations). It would have been Creative's equivalent on steroids, and a major boost to a relatively stagnant economy in Lake Nona (outside healthcare and a few other things). UCF loved the idea (proposals existed to feed grads from Rosen, the themed experience programs, and their engineering school, among others, into Imagineering in an expanded partnership that would have displaced SCAD and certain UC schools as Disney's major partner and feeder University), and it had near universal (pun unintended) support from the community. Think of all the associated jobs that would have been needed to support all the people who moved here, and the long-term development that would have spread as a result - no wonder why both Orlando and the County begged Disney to do this even despite turmoil. The biggest loss for Central Florida economically since the Navy moved out, and it's not even close.

Did it impact future Imagineers? Almost certainly, but I think the issue is much more broad. Management is clearly not up to the task of being a transistion from what was clearly a generation of some of the best in their craft to ever live. A lack of mentorship is one issue, but a lack of support, resources, or even planning (much less good ideas) are all other issues. Firing the best, and replacing them with lesser experience (and cheaper) options will bite Disney in the bum soon (if it hasn't already with Tiana and other underdelivered and underdeveloped projects). That's something I heard as far back as 2019 from various former Disney figures, and even more so during and after the pandemic. It's taken years to roost, we're only seeing the after-effects now and will for decades if nothing changes.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I dunno, maybe I’m a bad fan, but I’m not bothered by this.

the AI photo was the cherry on top of the barn shaped cake.

 

[DarkMetroid567]

Lake Nona was a giant loss, both for Disney and Orlando. Disney should have persevered, but bowed to internal pressure (more than external) and left what would have been a revolutionary project for them in the long term. Moving to Orlando would have significantly improved WDI. I'm much more disappointed that many in the old guard took what should have been an issue about uprooting livelihoods and lifetimes, and made it political. Partly because none of those same people have spoken out against DLAD (or taken their cheques from Miral), despite similar (or even worse) issues.

But I'm most upset because it would have been a massive home run for Orlando, which has suffered massively since TAIT effectively vacuumed up the major 3rd party design studios, laid off tons, and distributed much of the work that formerly went through their Orlando offices elsewhere (particularly PA, but also various other locations). It would have been Creative's equivalent on steroids, and a major boost to a relatively stagnant economy in Lake Nona (outside healthcare and a few other things). UCF loved the idea (proposals existed to feed grads from Rosen, the themed experience programs, and their engineering school, among others, into Imagineering in an expanded partnership that would have displaced SCAD and certain UC schools as Disney's major partner and feeder University), and it had near universal (pun unintended) support from the community. Think of all the associated jobs that would have been needed to support all the people who moved here, and the long-term development that would have spread as a result - no wonder why both Orlando and the County begged Disney to do this even despite turmoil. The biggest loss for Central Florida economically since the Navy moved out, and it's not even close.

Did it impact future Imagineers? Almost certainly, but I think the issue is much more broad. Management is clearly not up to the task of being a transistion from what was clearly a generation of some of the best in their craft to ever live. A lack of mentorship is one issue, but a lack of support, resources, or even planning (much less good ideas) are all other issues. Firing the best, and replacing them with lesser experience (and cheaper) options will bite Disney in the bum soon (if it hasn't already with Tiana and other underdelivered and underdeveloped projects). That's something I heard as far back as 2019 from various former Disney figures, and even more so during and after the pandemic. It's taken years to roost, we're only seeing the after-effects now and will for decades if nothing changes.

I think the writing was on the wall for why Lake Nona couldn’t happen — Disney just didn’t have the pull to convince the creatives to leave Southern California.

 

[DisneyHead123]

the AI photo was the cherry on top of the barn shaped cake.

Ok, like I said, not familiar with DL - the vibe, the flow, the feel of it, the traditional fan favorites, etc. Sounds like this shop was not well received for a number of reasons.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If the person paid for it, but many AI designs are open for anyone to use.

I dunno, maybe I’m a bad fan, but I’m not bothered by this. It just strikes me as a case of things seeming more important than they are when Reddit gets involved. It’s one open use picture that was used elsewhere. That’s just my take, of course.

There’s a reason Disney doesn’t take unsolicited work. There would still be ethical concerns with taking a friend’s work for company use.

You can’t copy someone else’s work and then give it away for free. Disney is actively suing Midjourney over this very issue. These print-to-order sites also don’t ask a lot of questions about the rights involved in an image which is why you can easily find Disney character stuff to order right now. Even items that are “free to use” have a variety of different licenses involved that can limit commercial use and/or ownership. That’s just the legal side, and not getting into the issue of just harvesting work instead of creating it and paying for it.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Ok, like I said, not familiar with DL - the vibe, the flow, the feel of it, the traditional fan favorites, etc. Sounds like this shop was not well received for a number of reasons.

it doesn’t seem like you are wanting to understand the issue, it’s like your mind has been made up it’s a non-issue, and then you claim ignorance cause you’re not familiar with DL?

 

[DisneyHead123]

it doesn’t seem like you are wanting to understand the issue, it’s like your mind has been made up it’s a non-issue, and then you claim ignorance cause you’re not familiar with DL?

It’s my polite way of saying “I don’t see the problem, but I’m not familiar with the park, so maybe I’m missing something.” If you want, I can stick to “Looks fine to me”.

 

[DarkMetroid567]

it doesn’t seem like you are wanting to understand the issue, it’s like your mind has been made up it’s a non-issue, and then you claim ignorance cause you’re not familiar with DL?

I don’t think that’s what they’re saying at all.

 

[Dranth]

Lake Nona was a giant loss

Hardly.

 

[DisneyHead123]

There’s a reason Disney doesn’t take unsolicited work. There would still be ethical concerns with taking a friend’s work for company use.

You can’t copy someone else’s work and then give it away for free. Disney is actively suing Midjourney over this very issue. These print-to-order sites also don’t ask a lot of questions about the rights involved in an image which is why you can easily find Disney character stuff to order right now. Even items that are “free to use” have a variety of different licenses involved that can limit commercial use and/or ownership. That’s just the legal side, and not getting into the issue of just harvesting work instead of creating it and paying for it.

I’m not understanding where we disagree. Are we in agreement that open use images can be used by anyone? This work was created by AI, as I understand it, not a person.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

It’s my polite way of saying “I don’t see the problem, but I’m not familiar with the park, so maybe I’m missing something.” If you want, I can stick to “Looks fine to me”.

The barn does? I don’t understand how anyone can think that to be honest haha.

 

[Comped]

I think the writing was on the wall for why Lake Nona couldn’t happen — Disney just didn’t have the pull to convince the creatives to leave Southern California.

Indeed, that was a part of it, and probably the biggest part. People won't complain about working on DLAD because they can say they worked on opening a new Disney "resort"... But complain about moving to Florida because it doesn't immediately benefit them. Fair enough I suppose, but Disney could have done a better job of explaining why it would long term (and convincing them to do it). Lake Nona is a great place to live (especially compared to parts of Southern California), and many Imagineers and their families could have lived quite comfortably there compared to how much they got in CA.

Hardly.

It was on multiple levels as I lined up in my comment, especially for those of us who are in Orlando and the surrounding area - but also Disney fans as a whole. It would have meant much more investment in WDW as that would have been Imagineering's home resort, for one...

 

[DisneyHead123]

The barn does? I don’t understand how anyone can think that to be honest haha.

I don’t know, I’m looking at .3 inch tiny pictures of whatever Google comes up with on a phone while my 5-year-old yells at me about the temperature of his chicken nuggets, I didn’t really have time for a deep dive.

 

[DrStarlander]

it's not like DL is plastered in Redbubble AI or something

The AI art in the Madame Leota gift shop was so beyond the pale, so outside the realm of what's "acceptable" in Disney creative work, it was jaw-dropping for many people familiar with the company, its legendary creative prowess, and brand-association with quality. It was disgusting. There's no "but maybe this happened" that excuses it.

But that was just one detail in a project that was overflowing with failures and lapses of quality, attention to detail, and creativity. I'm far less bothered by the shameful AI art (which can -- and was -- simply removed) than I'm bothered by the cheap vinyl or fiber cement siding with the fake wood grain. Or the iron gate in the back -- near the HM exit -- that provides an unobstructed view of the building's electrical and other back-stage utilities. Or the gigantic boring roof that could have had dormer windows, a cupola, overgrown ivy, or anything to make the building blend in and feel thematic as a transition to Bayou Country. Or the weird wrought iron things that have no historical basis or purpose hung around the cheap porch lanterns out front. I could literally go on and on listing more embarrassments of this project.

It is absolute garbage. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of architects, Hollywood production designers, stage designers for local theaters, or home DIYers who craft LARPing costumes or home tiki bars on the weekends that could have delivered a better result.

It's a difficult era not only because Imagineering doesn't have enough mentors left, but office work culture in general has changed a lot in the past decade. It has become very difficult to provide any critique to colleagues -- to suggest someone else's work is not on target or good enough -- within a workplace. That sensitive people-centric "no idea is a bad idea" ethos which once applied to brainstorming meetings now applies to entire projects, all the way to the finish line. People are afraid to be branded as toxic or not collaborative or not open to others' ideas. So for career-preservation they keep their mouths shut (this includes managers). Bad work is allowed to move forward nowadays that would have been stopped years ago.

This is troubling stuff for an organization like Imagineering to fix. And it can't happen if the people-managers and HR don't even understand there's a problem. The more out of touch they are with actual creative work and quality and guest experience -- the more they are just MBAs and organizational theorists -- the more likely they will measure success by metrics like retention and job-satisfaction surveys and participation in morale events rather than whether the stuff they're building in the parks is actually still good.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I’m not understanding where we disagree. Are we in agreement that open use images can be used by anyone? This work was created by AI, as I understand it, not a person.

“Open use images” is a vague, meaningless term. There are a variety of different licenses that allow different types of use. Some are only for personal use. Some require that subsequent work also be released under the same license.

AI image generators imitate other images. Unless the training data has been thoroughly vetted to ensure its licenses align it cannot properly claim to offer any sort of license. This is why Disney and Universal are suing Midjourney, because they will generate images that clearly imitate Disney and Universal’s intellectual property.

You cannot just say an image is “open to use” because it came from a print-to-order site or was generated by AI because both rather frequently don’t actually have the rights to use certain imagery. Work has to be individually vetted and an image that never should have made it through Disney’s vetting process did. The less troublesome option isn’t any of your excuses, but just that it was picked up secondhand. The alternative is work being passed off as original (something that happens in the industry with surprising regularity).