Marvel's Fantastic Four

[JackCH]

I don't know that still sounds like an overall origin story to me. Them fighting street level villain characters in a "getting to know you" type of movie is essentially part of an origin story where they learn their powers. As once they learn their powers they can easily defeat pretty much every street level villain. Which is exactly what they show in the exposition dump part of this movie.

In addition F4 have never really been a street level character story in my opinion like Spider-Man, Daredevil, Punisher, or similar characters. They are part of Cosmic Marvel, and so their story is much larger and can't be just isolated to fighting lower level villains in a movie without it being too boring. Especially when they want to quickly lead into Doom and the more Cosmic Marvel in a Multiverse Saga ending climax that'll lead into the Mutant Saga. So there just isn't enough time to tell the type of story you want.

That’s my point. There should be more time. It’s a mistake to do it this quickly. And why I am skeptical of the Avengers films.

I guess we’ll just have to disagree. A big part of what made the MCU successful was falling in love with characters which then led to stakes and emotion when they were threatened.

They are mainly cosmic explorers, which they did very well in this. But that theme could have been integrated in the other film as well and build to Galactus. That’s my problem. A lack of buildup both for Galactus and Doom/Secret Wars.

 

[Casper Gutman]

L

i need to go back and read some stuff cause I don’t remember that. Though often those kind of retconned get re-retconned later lol.

But I totally agree. I hope they don’t do that with Franklin it just seemed like it might be the direction they take. One of the reasons I like Franklin is he often is a stand-in for a child with a super active imagination, and I hope they stick with that.

Oh, it’s comics, so who knows when they’ll change it again.

I’d argue that Franklin has never MEANINGFULLY been a mutant because what really, truly distinguishes a Marvel mutant is that they are persecuted and feared and Franklin isn’t.

 

[LSLS]

That’s my point. There should be more time. It’s a mistake to do it this quickly. And why I am skeptical of the Avengers films.

I guess we’ll just have to disagree. A big part of what made the MCU successful was falling in love with characters which then led to stakes and emotion when they were threatened.

They are mainly cosmic explorers, which they did very well in this. But that theme could have been integrated in the other film as well and build to Galactus. That’s my problem. A lack of buildup both for Galactus and Doom/Secret Wars.

So would you say similar to how Strange had Dormammu?

 

[Disney Irish]

That’s my point. There should be more time. It’s a mistake to do it this quickly. And why I am skeptical of the Avengers films.

I guess we’ll just have to disagree. A big part of what made the MCU successful was falling in love with characters which then led to stakes and emotion when they were threatened.

They are mainly cosmic explorers, which they did very well in this. But that theme could have been integrated in the other film as well and build to Galactus. That’s my problem. A lack of buildup both for Galactus and Doom/Secret Wars.

Its a double-edge sword though. There is only so much time and too many stories to tell, especially when you have an audience that apparently only wants to watch 1-3 movies a year. So how much time do you want them to spend on each set of characters? I mean if we do it based on how you want we'd be in the 2040s or 2050s by the time Mutants get introduced, as it is we'll be in the 2030s when they get their first standalone film.

At some point you just have to accept that you can't tell every story with a full fleshed out 3-6 movie arc. Marvel is just too big with too many characters and stories for that to happen. So they have to compress a lot of it into something that can be easily digestible for the masses. And for the most part I think they've succeeded.

 

[Disney Irish]

So would you say similar to how Strange had Dormammu?

Exactly, he just was, no big intro, no big backstory, he just was the "big bad" and I think they did a fine job at giving him enough screen time to explain his motivations, just like Glactus here.

 

[JackCH]

Its a double-edge sword though. There is only so much time and too many stories to tell, especially when you have an audience that apparently only wants to watch 1-3 movies a year. So how much time do you want them to spend on each set of characters? I mean if we do it based on how you want we'd be in the 2040s or 2050s by the time Mutants get introduced, as it is we'll be in the 2030s when they get their first standalone film.

At some point you just have to accept that you can't tell every story with a full fleshed out 3-6 movie arc. Marvel is just too big with too many characters and stories for that to happen. So they have to compress a lot of it into something that can be easily digestible for the masses. And for the most part I think they've succeed.

Sure, but I think there is a clear difference in how they’ve handled it pre-and post- Endgame. I’d argue it’s been a mess since then and there has been almost no buildup for Secret Wars. There also really isn’t a reason they couldn’t have done Mutants before Secret Wars.

Some of the stories they’ve chosen to tell, like Eternals, they probably shouldn’t have to make more room for things like FF and maybe mutants. For a Hickman-style Secret Wars arc, the FF are the Iron Man/Cap, not Doctor Strange.

 

[Joel]

I don't know that they necessarily needed a whole extra movie to tell this story properly, but an extra half hour would have helped a lot.

I really liked the setting and thought the cast did a good job, but the story was a letdown in the end. I'm not sure how Reed's final plan was supposed to have any chance of success, just to name one of a handful of plot points that made me go, "Wait, what?"

I still thought it was good, but I don't know that I would even call it very good. Certainly not as great as I hoped it would be. I'm pretty sure I'll be rooting for Doom in the next one.

 

[JackCH]

So would you say similar to how Strange had Dormammu?

I want to reiterate, I liked Fantastic Four. This is something I feel weakened it a bit. And yes, I think it weakened Doctor Strange a bit.

But even there- Doctor Strange was part of a larger narrative building toward Infinity War, but his movie didn’t need to carry much of the weight beyond introducing magic and the time stone. For Secret Wars, the FF are the most essential story and characters that needed to be introduced and built up. And I think they did okay! I just believe at the same time it could have been much stronger.

Maybe I’ll be surprised and Doomsday does fine picking it up from here. But I have concerns.

 

[Disney Irish]

Sure, but I think there is a clear difference in how they’ve handled it pre-and post- Endgame. I’d argue it’s been a mess since then and there has been almost no buildup for Secret Wars. There also really isn’t a reason they couldn’t have done Mutants before Secret Wars.

Some of the stories they’ve chosen to tell, like Eternals, they probably shouldn’t have to make more room for things like FF and maybe mutants.

Remember that they didn't have access to Mutants and F4 until 5 years ago. So they were already deep into planning the Multiverse Saga by the time they got access to those characters, so the slate was already full. Hard to slot another 2 sets of characters with a full 3-6 movie character arc into the schedule when you're already having to cancel or scale back some projects because your slate is too full. And its not like they did nothing, they quickly started to sprinkle the seeds to introduce the concept of Mutants into those stories they were already telling within the Multiverse Saga.

Also remember they had a plan that they had and were building toward but had to pivot away from due to a lead actor getting into hot water, as well as a delay due to the pandemic. So that took its toll on things as well and caused changes, many had that stuff not happened never would have been on the table in my opinion. Not to mention the reception on certain projects end up causing them to change even more. And if you believe recent comments from Feige they were always leading to Doom anyways, so in the end we're still getting the same end results even if the build up wasn't as clean as they would have originally liked.

So yes the Multiverse Saga has been a mess, but some of which were caused by reasons beyond their control.

 

[LSLS]

I want to reiterate, I liked Fantastic Four. This is something I feel weakened it a bit. And yes, I think it weakened Doctor Strange a bit.

But even there- Doctor Strange was part of a larger narrative building toward Infinity War, but his movie didn’t need to carry much of the weight beyond introducing magic and the time stone. For Secret Wars, the FF are the most essential story and characters that needed to be introduced and built up. And I think they did okay! I just believe at the same time it could have been much stronger.

Maybe I’ll be surprised and Doomsday does fine picking it up from here. But I have concerns.

OH, not trying to attack the statement from you (sorry if it came across like that). As someone who didn't know Strange/Dormammu at all, it felt like he was a big threat when he appeared, just to kind of have him there and gone quick. It feels like you are saying the same thing here, which I think could be a valid criticism. I've heard Galactus is a big bad, so I get the idea of maybe let him build into a big reveal role. BUT, I also get the other side that if he's not the bad for a phase, there's only so much you do with it. You can like the film and have a few criticisms (I know I do that a lot).

 

[JackCH]

OH, not trying to attack the statement from you (sorry if it came across like that). As someone who didn't know Strange/Dormammu at all, it felt like he was a big threat when he appeared, just to kind of have him there and gone quick. It feels like you are saying the same thing here, which I think could be a valid criticism. I've heard Galactus is a big bad, so I get the idea of maybe let him build into a big reveal role. BUT, I also get the other side that if he's not the bad for a phase, there's only so much you do with it. You can like the film and have a few criticisms (I know I do that a lot).

Definitely. And honestly it is less about needing to build up Galactus and more about building toward Doomsday/Secret Wars that worries me.

My main complaint with Galactus in this just has to do with how they use him in the third act a bit. But I don’t want to spoil anything for you! I think he was handled better than Dormammu!

 

[JackCH]

Remember that they didn't have access to Mutants and F4 until 5 years ago. So they were already deep into planning the Multiverse Saga by the time they got access to those characters, so the slate was already full. Hard to slot another 2 sets of characters with a full 3-6 movie character arc into the schedule when you're already having to cancel or scale back some projects because your slate is too full. And its not like they did nothing, they quickly started to sprinkle the seeds to introduce the concept of Mutants into those stories they were already telling within the Multiverse Saga.

Also remember they had a plan that they had and were building toward but had to pivot away from due to a lead actor getting into hot water, as well as a delay due to the pandemic. So that took its toll on things as well and caused changes, many had that stuff not happened never would have been on the table in my opinion. Not to mention the reception on certain projects end up causing them to change even more. And if you believe recent comments from Feige they were always leading to Doom anyways, so in the end we're still getting the same end results even if the build up wasn't as clean as they would have originally liked.

So yes the Multiverse Saga has been a mess, but some of which were caused by reasons beyond their control.

Sure, and I get all that. I do think there were a lot of creative decisions that were within their control that made matters worse.

I would have given Doomsday/Secret Wars a little more time to build. Not talking a lot. Just an extra movie or so. I think the general audience right now hasn’t had much to build hype or interest in those two films.

 

[Disney Irish]

Sure, and I get all that. I do think there were a lot of creative decisions that were within their control that made matters worse.

I would have given Doomsday/Secret Wars a little more time to build. Not talking a lot. Just an extra movie or so. I think the general audience right now hasn’t had much to build hype or interest in those two films.

And I don't disagree necessarily, in principal. Its easy however from the outside to say they should have done this or they should have done that. But when you are the one in-charge of making those decisions, decisions that are being made for projects that are 5-10 years in the future, its not always as easy as we think it should be.

Had they not had to pivot away from Kang I suspect things would have been cleaner and allowed things to breathe as you would have wanted.

Remember though that even another movie or two adds essentially 1-2 years of delay to getting to the end. So instead of finishing in 2027, you're finishing in 2028 or 2029, which will have a domino effect with the rest of the move slate. Again easy for us to say, yeah just do it. Harder when you're the one who has to make a decision on this stuff.

 

[Phroobar]

Watched the 2005 version of Fantastic Four. It follows the basic origin story every other super hero movie followed pre-MCU. They are gathered and get their new abilities. The team fights with their new abilities and themselves. They finally come together to battle the bad guy. It was much nicer to see Reed and Sue already married and Johnny and the Thing working together as a family in the new version. The look of the 2005 version was ordinary. They did the same saving other heros did. The final battle with Victor wasn't Fantastic.

 

[Disney Irish]

Watched the 2005 version of Fantastic Four. It follows the basic origin story every other super hero movie followed pre-MCU. They are gathered and get their new abilities. The team fights with their new abilities and themselves. They finally come together to battle the bad guy. It was much nicer to see Reed and Sue already married and Johnny and the Thing working together as a family in the new version. The look of the 2005 version was ordinary. They did the same saving other heros did. The final battle with Victor wasn't Fantastic.

Yeah, but Julian McMahon I thought played a good Victor. RIP Julian. Too bad he couldn't make it to see RDJ play the part, would have been good to see him walk the red carpet with RDJ.

 

[Agent H]

Spoiler

my brother brought up the very good point the other day that the scene where they get mole man to help them could have had a greater impact if if we knew more about him before that scene. A good 20 minute fight scene
In the first act could have solved this issue.

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

Spoiler

my brother brought up the very good point the other day that the scene where they get mole man to help them could have had a greater impact if if we knew more about him before that scene. A good 20 minute fight scene
In the first act could have solved this issue.

Spoiler

I had that same thought. I found it weird how they brought him in all 'ho ho, he's an old buddy of Sue's but still bickers with Reed... and look, he's helping because he DOES care!'

I had no reason to know or care about him and him 'solving' this 'major' issue they had was meaningless.

 

[Agent H]

Spoiler

I had that same thought. I found it weird how they brought him in all 'ho ho, he's an old buddy of Sue's but still bickers with Reed... and look, he's helping because he DOES care!'

I had no reason to know or care about him and him 'solving' this 'major' issue they had was meaningless.

To be fair They mention him a few times in the part where they are explaining their origin story and when silver surfer arrives they are standing on top of where one of his monsters came out of the ground. However I agree the scene acts like we know the character better than we actually do.

 

[Phroobar]

To be fair They mention him a few times in the part where they are explaining their origin story and when silver surfer arrives they are standing on top of where one of his monsters came out of the ground. However I agree the scene acts like we know the character better than we actually do.

Besides we already saw that scene in the Incredibles 2.

 

[coffeefan]