Universal Epic Universe (South Expansion Complex) - Opens May 22 2025

[Tom Morrow]

I also think Celestial Park seems kind weak—that's partially because Epic Universe's story device is kind of weak too. I think the story is roughly "you can explore a universe filled with exciting worlds using the portals of the gods and they're Greek gods just because!" Epic Universe's structure reminds me of the Magician's Nephew, choose your portal and go to a different world! One of the big problems with this concept is that there's no explanation as to why certain worlds are present while others are excluded. Why are the Greek gods sending you to see Donkey Kong? Maybe that's one of the labors of Hercules I missed! There's really no obvious organizing principle behind the park's constitution.

This is a valid observation, however, the alternative to not having any kind of thematic element to tie everything together would be a park that is the same as every other Universal park minus:

USF - For the most part retains the "studios/studio city film sets" motif.
USH - Is still an actual studio.
USJ - Is like 50% still "studio city film sets" themed.

The rest are just a mishmash of IP collections without anything to tie them together, including IOA (save for the fact that it originally was all based on literature). Beijing and Singapore are basically what Epic would be like without Celestial Park.

So while it is somewhat vague, and somewhat lightly themed, it is at least something that gives the park some form and meaning.

 

[JT3000]

This is a valid observation, however, the alternative to not having any kind of thematic element to tie everything together would be a park that is the same as every other Universal park minus:

USF - For the most part retains the "studios/studio city film sets" motif.
USH - Is still an actual studio.
USJ - Is like 50% still "studio city film sets" themed.

The rest are just a mishmash of IP collections without anything to tie them together, including IOA (save for the fact that it originally was all based on literature). Beijing and Singapore are basically what Epic would be like without Celestial Park.

So while it is somewhat vague, and somewhat lightly themed, it is at least something that gives the park some form and meaning.

Epic is really no different from IOA in the sense that, at the end of the day, they're both hodgepodges of IP that come with their own lore in a desperate attempt to neatly tie everything together, but if anything, IOA's lore seems more detailed and a bit less contrived than Epic's. That park's overarching theme is literally just (islands of) adventure though. It was never literature, which was just a happy coincidence someone noticed (and one that a couple attractions never fit neatly into.) Either way, I think it's still preferable to what they've attempted with Epic, the concept of which needed more time in the oven, as it feels even more like a "These are the IPs we had lying around" park than IOA does. They'll never do it, but the park could potentially benefit greatly from a more heavily themed Celestial Park attraction that actually explores its theme properly.

 

[andre85]

I also think Celestial Park seems kind weak—that's partially because Epic Universe's story device is kind of weak too. I think the story is roughly "you can explore a universe filled with exciting worlds using the portals of the gods and they're Greek gods just because!" Epic Universe's structure reminds me of the Magician's Nephew, choose your portal and go to a different world! One of the big problems with this concept is that there's no explanation as to why certain worlds are present while others are excluded. Why are the Greek gods sending you to see Donkey Kong? Maybe that's one of the labors of Hercules I missed! There's really no obvious organizing principle behind the park's constitution.

Celestial Park was by far the weakest element when I visited a few weeks back. Overall, the park is great, but the hub felt incredibly generic and lacks an appealing weenie (that ugly hotel does not count). Perhaps it's better at night, but it absolutely did not convey anything 'celestial' to me during the day. It reminded me most of Epcot, but worse since almost everything is silo'd off creating a lack of cohesion. Plus it's kind of ugly (which I'm sure will improve when the tree grow in). The fountain is nice (despite the ugly hotel looming behind it) and I loved the coaster, but it just has very little charm otherwise.

As for the greek gods sending us to DK: at least that's a different universe or planet or whatever. It amuses me that half the lands "celestial" park leads us too are Earth/European based, with HP and Dark Universe

Mario Kart is a better ride without the AR goggles -- it's still a strange fit for Mario Kart, but the sets etc. are good. The AR aspects are just distracting and make the experience worse.

I'm so very annoyed the AR tech wasn't saved for a Luigi's Mansion attraction, which would make so much more sense. Not only could the AR glasses fit in-universe as allowing for ghost-vision or whatever, but the inherent transparency of the AR effects makes total sense for the ghosts too

 

[DCBaker]

Universal Orlando has launched a 1 Day Epic Universal Preview Ticket for all guests:

Pricing details:

1 Day Universal Epic Universe Preview Ticket

The 1-Day Epic Universe Preview Ticket entitles one (1) guest admission to Universal Epic Universe theme park on one (1) calendar day. The ticket is valid only on the date selected and printed on the ticket.

The above product is non-refundable, non-transferable, and must be used by the same person on all days. Standard entry includes biometric scan. Valid only during normal operating hours. Parks, attractions, or entertainment may: close due to refurbishing, capacity, weather or special events; change operating hours; and otherwise change or be discontinued without notice and without liability to the owners of Universal Orlando Resort (‘Universal’). Unless otherwise stated, does not include admission to any of the Universal theme parks, separately ticketed events and venues at any of the Universal theme parks and/or CityWalk and excludes parking or discounts on food or merchandise. Some CityWalk venues require ages 21 or older for admission. Valid Photo ID required. Additional restrictions may apply and benefits are subject to change without notice.

 

[rd805]

I wonder if they are including these preview visits as "official visitors" for attendance counts?

 

[jrhwdw]

Was This expected to happen? Or are Preview Crowds Too Light?

 

[Agent H]

I’m in the Mario kart line. Does anyone know if the dates on these blueprints are anything significant?

 

[andre85]

View attachment 856218I’m in the Mario kart line. Does anyone know if the dates on these blueprints are anything significant?

Doesn't seem to be anything of significance as far as Nintendo is concerned, especially as two of those were on a weekend. I wonder if it may be personal dates related to Universal's Creative team, like babies born or something?

 

[Purduevian]

Using Len's number of 35,000 guests per day. If EPIC were to "sell out" all 365 days in 2026, it would reach ~13,000,000 people per year which would put it 6th in the world (behind MK, DL, USJ, TDL, SDL). IOA reached 10,000,000 for comparison

 

[DarkMetroid567]

Using Len's number of 35,000 guests per day. If EPIC were to "sell out" all 365 days in 2026, it would reach ~13,000,000 people per year which would put it 6th in the world (behind MK, DL, USJ, TDL, SDL). IOA reached 10,000,000 for comparison

This would be a TDS scenario with 180 min waits for each attraction lol

 

[Purduevian]

@Andrew25 is also doing good work here.

Below is my spreadsheet with upper limits on per-hour ride capacity. Comments welcome. The items in beige are things I'm not sure about. The items in gray are calculated from the other columns:

View attachment 854001

I'm using a couple of different ways to determine park capacity.

The first one, shown above, first calculates hourly capacity. Then it uses ratios of "guests on rides and in line" to "everyone in the park" from one of Disney's internal documents for DLR, MK, MGM, and Epcot. That's the 46 to 60% range shown above, giving a max capacity of somewhere between 30K and 40K. (If we used the MK's ratio it'd be almost exactly in the middle - 35K guests at any time.)

The second way I'm doing it looks like this:

• Determine the avergage wait in line across the park that Universal's willing to accept (e.g., 30, 45, 60, 75 minutes)
• Figure out how many guests would need to be in lines for that to happen
• Use the same 46-60% ratios from above.

For example, with an average wait across the park of 66 minutes, and assuming the relative popularity shown below, the right hand side shows park numbers:
View attachment 854002

I used DAK's peak ride numbers from last Christmas as a guide. (For example, what was the upper limit on wait times at Adventurers Outpost - a character greeting? Kali River Rapids - a water ride? Kilimanjaro Safaris vs Flight of Passage, etc.)

In this method, the park's peak capacity is somewhere between 33K and 44K, with a middle around 38K.

I would be surprised if Universal's going to accept an average actual wait in line of more than 70 minutes. Ministry and Monsters don't seem reliable enough yet for that scenario.

So both calculations put park capacity in the 35K to 38K range at any given time of day.

The other big dependency here is the ride cycle time. I haven't been back to measure unload/load time, and some of those numbers were pretty bad. Hopefully that's something they can work down.

This would be a TDS scenario with 180 min waits for each attraction lol

nah, check out his math above. Its funny but people seem to be arguing both sides of the coin in this thread:
1) EPIC is good, but not great, won't have a chance to get past EPCOT and DHS (I don't think anyone thinks it can touch MK)
2) EPIC is underbuilt! they need to expand capacity quickly!

 

[ConVMagic]

Many domestic theme park fans have never gone to a brand-new Disney or Universal park as an adult. Animal Kingdom is 27 years old. Islands of Adventure is just shy of 26. Going to a new theme park as an adult is exciting. Everything is fresh and coherent. I went to Shanghai Disneyland in its opening year, and it was an incredibly memorable experience—there’s something special about a new theme park!

Not to make anyone feel old hahaha, but I’m 24 and this is the first time that I’ve been alive for a major theme park opening in the US, and I’m beyond excited!! Keeping up with the rumors and news has been super fun, and being able to basically watch the thing being built online was so cool. I can’t wait to go and experience it for myself now!!

 

[lazyboy97o]

nah, check out his math above. Its funny but people seem to be arguing both sides of the coin in this thread:
1) EPIC is good, but not great, won't have a chance to get past EPCOT and DHS (I don't think anyone thinks it can touch MK)
2) EPIC is underbuilt! they need to expand capacity quickly!

In terms of attraction capacity, Epic Universe has the least of the three Universal Orlando Resort theme parks. It is to Universal Studios Florida what Universal Studios Florida is to Islands of Adventure in terms of attraction capacity.

Theme parks are not buildings where regulations require defining a maximum occupancy. They can cram as many people in as they desire. Experiencing Epic Universe would be a very miserable, damaging experience if it has visitation that exceeds the north campus parks.

It’s also perfectly normal for additional gates to not meet the visitation of established parks for years (or ever). It is also perfectly normal for a resort to have a net gain in visitation while the existing parts experience a decrease. That’s also a positive for guests as less visitation at the existing parks generally means less crowding and shorter waits.

 

[lentesta]

nah, check out his math above. Its funny but people seem to be arguing both sides of the coin in this thread:
1) EPIC is good, but not great, won't have a chance to get past EPCOT and DHS (I don't think anyone thinks it can touch MK)
2) EPIC is underbuilt! they need to expand capacity quickly!

Related to this, last week I asked Bruce Laval (the guy that invented FastPass at Disney) if priority queues like FP and Universal Express increase park capacity. He said yes. But it's nuanced.

Priority queues don't change a ride's theoretical hourly capacity (THC). Peter Pan's Flight does 1,000 people/hour no matter how many lines there are. So it can't directly change the park's THC either.

What happens in practice is that guests holding a ride reservation end up going on rides that don't take reservations. So you see Enchanted Tiki Room while you're waiting for Jungle Cruise.

That increases Tiki Room's Operational Hourly Capacity (OHC). And that does change the park's OHC.

I mention this because I think there are relatively few attractions in Epic that don't offer Universal Express:

• Mine Cart Madness
• Ministry
• Dragon Racer's Rally

Mine Cart Madness and Dragon Racer's Rally are really low THC to begin with, and probably can't support Universal Express. Plus the best thing we can hope for with Ministry right now is that it's reliable.

Since there's not a lot of non-Express things to do in the park, it seems like Universal Express isn't going to increase the park's capacity the way it would at other parks.

Also, I am 100% sure they're not opening the park at anything close to 100% capacity. Maybe 50-66%, tops, as a guess. And if I'm wrong I'd bet it's lower, not higher.

 

[Tom Morrow]

For what it's worth, USF and IOA at 25K guests (each) will feel very busy, with everything having at least a moderate to high wait. Once they hit 30K or above, they are absolutely slammed.

In no way can Epic accommodate 30K guests or above without being a completely miserable experience for everyone. I wouldn't doubt it if they were capping attendance at 20K for the foreseeable future.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Related to this, last week I asked Bruce Laval (the guy that invented FastPass at Disney) if priority queues like FP and Universal Express increase park capacity. He said yes. But it's nuanced.

Priority queues don't change a ride's theoretical hourly capacity (THC). Peter Pan's Flight does 1,000 people/hour no matter how many lines there are. So it can't directly change the park's THC either.

What happens in practice is that guests holding a ride reservation end up going on rides that don't take reservations. So you see Enchanted Tiki Room while you're waiting for Jungle Cruise.

That increases Tiki Room's Operational Hourly Capacity (OHC). And that does change the park's OHC.

I mention this because I think there are relatively few attractions in Epic that don't offer Universal Express:

• Mine Cart Madness
• Ministry
• Dragon Racer's Rally

Mine Cart Madness and Dragon Racer's Rally are really low THC to begin with, and probably can't support Universal Express. Plus the best thing we can hope for with Ministry right now is that it's reliable.

Since there's not a lot of non-Express things to do in the park, it seems like Universal Express isn't going to increase the park's capacity the way it would at other parks.

Also, I am 100% sure they're not opening the park at anything close to 100% capacity. Maybe 50-66%, tops, as a guess. And if I'm wrong I'd bet it's lower, not higher.

Volcano Bay was built around this idea and it fell apart as soon as the park opened. And that was at a water park where killing time in the wave pool, lazy river or on a sun chair is part of the experience. Theme parks have even less of those experiences and the incentives have become perverse such that it’s seen as better to remove that slack theoretical capacity.

 

[flynnibus]

Theme parks have even less of those experiences and the incentives have become perverse such that it’s seen as better to remove that slack theoretical capacity.

I bet Disney loved that guests were using FPs to see continuously running shows.. and it would be interesting to see if utilization really is up on those 2nd and 3rd tier attractions. My guess is yes, simply because someone with 1-2 hrs to kill waiting for a reservation isn't going to just stare at the landscaping that whole time.. they are going to treat that time as 'bonus time' and do things they might otherwise not fully commit to.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Priority queues don't change a ride's theoretical hourly capacity (THC). Peter Pan's Flight does 1,000 people/hour no matter how many lines there are. So it can't directly change the park's THC either.

What happens in practice is that guests holding a ride reservation end up going on rides that don't take reservations. So you see Enchanted Tiki Room while you're waiting for Jungle Cruise.

That increases Tiki Room's Operational Hourly Capacity (OHC). And that does change the park's OHC.

Just a note - Operational Hourly Capacity is not ridership, which is what you are describing. OHC is the attraction's Theoretical Hourly Capacity with the typical amount of expected delays/situations/empty seats factored in. In other words, what the attraction should be able to hit within reason.

 

[Tom Morrow]

This doesn't have anything to do with the current discussion, but I haven't seen it discussed and I want to mention it while I'm thinking about it:

Another thing that sucks about Curse of the Werewolf - the music that blares from the ride track area throughout EVERY ride cycle. The same music, every time, pretty much constantly. The ride already visually hinders the land, and this music hinders it further. Plus, you can barely hear it on the ride anyway.

Universal, please consider removing the music while keeping the werewolf noises, and maybe adding additional creepy atmospheric noises and ambiance instead that would also thematically enhance the area around the ride.

 

[Purduevian]

Related to this, last week I asked Bruce Laval (the guy that invented FastPass at Disney) if priority queues like FP and Universal Express increase park capacity. He said yes. But it's nuanced.

Priority queues don't change a ride's theoretical hourly capacity (THC). Peter Pan's Flight does 1,000 people/hour no matter how many lines there are. So it can't directly change the park's THC either.

What happens in practice is that guests holding a ride reservation end up going on rides that don't take reservations. So you see Enchanted Tiki Room while you're waiting for Jungle Cruise.

That increases Tiki Room's Operational Hourly Capacity (OHC). And that does change the park's OHC.

I mention this because I think there are relatively few attractions in Epic that don't offer Universal Express:

• Mine Cart Madness
• Ministry
• Dragon Racer's Rally

Mine Cart Madness and Dragon Racer's Rally are really low THC to begin with, and probably can't support Universal Express. Plus the best thing we can hope for with Ministry right now is that it's reliable.

Since there's not a lot of non-Express things to do in the park, it seems like Universal Express isn't going to increase the park's capacity the way it would at other parks.

Also, I am 100% sure they're not opening the park at anything close to 100% capacity. Maybe 50-66%, tops, as a guess. And if I'm wrong I'd bet it's lower, not higher.

Correct me if I am wrong... but isn't that irrelevant to USO parks because the ride time doesn't need to be reserved? No one with express pass has an extra 30 mins before they can ride something.

However with extra time in their day, I could see them spending more time at Ygor, Citizens of Darkmoor, wizard students, wand magic, fountain shows, power up band games, Roughnut and Toughnut, ice dragon, and Gobber.

The capacity might just be so low on these though that it doesn't make a difference. Do you think 35,000 people a day is feasible or would that just be too miserable an experience to run for months on end?