Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

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celluloid

Well-Known Member
Roger_the_pianist said:
I was aware of this statement by Maltin. That seems like a cop out of "things were different back then"

We live now.
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So you just want an expert and are waiting for a film historian that agrees with you? Confusing indeed. Leonard Maltin one of the most respected film critic and historian of film still alive today. So he is living now.

That is not a cop out, that is how you learn to be better and more sensitive while being able to say that all people of the past were not evil. That is a rational adult way to evaluate something that is over half a century old. If you can't say things were different then, and history shows us that things are getting better as we learn more, than your only other choice is to erase it the best you can by keeping it locked up. Quite the conundrum when you say you want authority figures to have disclaimers.


You know, if I was going to make a film that was even passively racist against people of John Baskin's color, you know what the last thing I would do would be? To have the story revolve around him being the main influence to a group of youth. That is probably the most opposite white supremacist's thing imaginable is to have a black man influencing your children with morals and them respecting him. Everything else is sensitivities changing and that is ok to reflect on while still enjoying the main purpose of the story.
 
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C

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Roger_the_pianist said:
Yes, moreso than people on a message board.
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That is odd. I don't think historians of film decide on what is good or evil for others. I think they decide on what is worth critiquing or analyzing in film as an art or historical influence of said artform and share that with others. The title has nothing to do with good or evil. Every individual with intent has access to that, otherwise that would be an odd world.

You said yourself that you felt teachers have bias. A history teacher is by nature a historian. Actually, the definition of a historian is anyone who is not just an expert on a type of history but a student of history, so you kind of cornered yourself with that argument as many on this message board would fall into that category.

Yet, when presented with a historian for the specific medium that Song of the South is in you call it a cop out.
 
S

swge

Active Member
1HAPPYGHOSTHOST said:
No it is not. Splash Mountain is not "Song of the South: The Ride". It is very different and seperate from the movie and has stood as its own thing since it opened in the late 80's
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This is like saying that Mr. Toad's Wild Ride is not a "The Wind in the Willows" ride, Ariel's Undersea Adventure is not a "The Little Mermaid" ride, Radiator Springs Racers is not a "Cars" ride... Make it make sense...
 
1HAPPYGHOSTHOST

1HAPPYGHOSTHOST

Well-Known Member
swge said:
This is like saying that Mr. Toad's Wild Ride is not a "The Wind in the Willows" ride, Ariel's Undersea Adventure is not a "The Little Mermaid" ride, Radiator Springs Racers is not a "Cars" ride... Make it make sense...
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It's not. Mr. Toad is very different from the Wind in the Willows cartoon.
 
Roger_the_pianist

Roger_the_pianist

Well-Known Member
The little quote by Maltin has no depth and doesn't elaborate on anything. Basically just says *times were different back then*

Well, at the film's release civil rights activists boycotted theaters. It was problematic then as well. It upheld stereotypes and was a revision of history.
 
Brer Panther

Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
celluloid said:
That is not actually what he says. It is "hottentots" and it was at one time a term that people of England used for pastoral tribes in Africa but eventually became a term for all dark skinned people. Which is what Admiral Boom thought before looking closer and realizing they were Chimney Sweeps with smudged soot on their faces. The term at one time would be how it is inappropriate to call people with dark pigment African American, although no offense intended, they are not necessarily African in origin.

Haagen-Daz as in the Ice Cream company is a made up word by the company based in New York, who wanted an exotic sounding name for their company.
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Ah, did not know that. Yeah, that's certainly problematic.
 
Roger_the_pianist

Roger_the_pianist

Well-Known Member
If Song of the South ever comes out of the Disney *vault* it would need much more than the Disney+ disclaimer as in Dumbo, Aristocats, Peter Pan, Swiss Fam.

It would also need more than the prologue we got with Gone With the Wind.

It's likely never going to be released. A well prepared documentary is about the most I could imagine.

There's so much more to unpack with that film than in the shorts like Mickey's Mellerdrammer, the WW2 propaganda, or the Censored 11.

Song of the South goes leaps and bounds beyond cartoonist stereotypes. It glazes over history in a way that no other media has approached.

Literal musical numbers about how everything is "satisfactual"

Then to have a thrill ride in multiple parks celebrate that, bins of plushies, commerative pins...call me *woke* but I'd rather be woke on an issue than asleep.
 
Nirya

Nirya

Well-Known Member
CaptinEO said:
At least in California it is standardized what is taught and slavery, reconstruction, and civil rights were topics that were extensively taught, at least in my schooling.

Having people put things into context is assuming that your audience is ignorant or unintelligent. Reminds me of Disneys disclaimers that drinking and smoking are bad. Now everyone including grown adults have to get a message for preschoolers.
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Hey, is it ok if I jump in here as an actual high school history teacher here in California?

Let's start with US History. 8th Grade is where students are expected to learn about the Reconstruction era, as it gets its own content standard. Unfortunately, it is near the end of the standards, as 8th Grade US History covers the time period from pre-colonization to post-Civil War, and most school districts have requirements for 8th graders to pass a "Constitution Test" which tends to take up a large portion of the year (for example, when I taught 8th grade the Constitution Test itself took place in February) which means the rest of the year gets condensed down to a major degree. 11th grade US History is technically a "survey" course, but it is really a modern US History class as the standards really focus on 20th century America (think 1900s on) with the opening sections of the course being a quick refresh.

What this tends to mean is that the Reconstruction era gets barely covered, and in many cases it is glossed over in favor of study of the "Gilded Age" politics of the period. Even for AP US History classes, Reconstruction is not an emphasis point for the test, which means teachers at that level will give it a simple pass in order to focus on more test-relevant subjects.

As for the other two, slavery is "covered" but it is not emphasized. For example, the word slavery does not show up at all in the 11th grade content standards, and it is limited to one major standard in 8th grade. Civil Rights is similarly relegated to one simple content standard. What this all means is that if you were extensively taught these subjects in school, then you were lucky more often than not.

If you want to look over history content standards in California, here's a link to them: https://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/documents/histsocscistnd.pdf. I'd be happy to answer any other questions you have here.
 
Roger_the_pianist

Roger_the_pianist

Well-Known Member
BasiltheBatLord said:
This is legit one of the craziest examples of hyperbole I've ever read on here. The result of 24/7 outrage culture I guess.
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Can you give an example of another piece of media more problematic than Song of the South? Particularly one geared to children?

My point is that this isn't just a cartoon short with racist depictions (although it includes several) but it's a film that tries to rewrite history and depict basically the opposite of what society was dealing with at the time it was set and the time it was released.
 
CaptinEO

CaptinEO

Well-Known Member
Nirya said:
Hey, is it ok if I jump in here as an actual high school history teacher here in California?

Let's start with US History. 8th Grade is where students are expected to learn about the Reconstruction era, as it gets its own content standard. Unfortunately, it is near the end of the standards, as 8th Grade US History covers the time period from pre-colonization to post-Civil War, and most school districts have requirements for 8th graders to pass a "Constitution Test" which tends to take up a large portion of the year (for example, when I taught 8th grade the Constitution Test itself took place in February) which means the rest of the year gets condensed down to a major degree. 11th grade US History is technically a "survey" course, but it is really a modern US History class as the standards really focus on 20th century America (think 1900s on) with the opening sections of the course being a quick refresh.

What this tends to mean is that the Reconstruction era gets barely covered, and in many cases it is glossed over in favor of study of the "Gilded Age" politics of the period. Even for AP US History classes, Reconstruction is not an emphasis point for the test, which means teachers at that level will give it a simple pass in order to focus on more test-relevant subjects.

As for the other two, slavery is "covered" but it is not emphasized. For example, the word slavery does not show up at all in the 11th grade content standards, and it is limited to one major standard in 8th grade. Civil Rights is similarly relegated to one simple content standard. What this all means is that if you were extensively taught these subjects in school, then you were lucky more often than not.

If you want to look over history content standards in California, here's a link to them: https://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/documents/histsocscistnd.pdf. I'd be happy to answer any other questions you have here.
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Wow how things change. I had significant studying and testing on this era. I didnt graduate too long ago either (in the grand scheme of things).

Thanks for sharing your professional expertise. Sounds like now it really is just glossed over.
 
CaptinEO

CaptinEO

Well-Known Member
Roger_the_pianist said:
Can you give an example of another piece of media more problematic than Song of the South? Particularly one geared to children?

My point is that this isn't just a cartoon short with racist depictions (although it includes several) but it's a film that tries to rewrite history and depict basically the opposite of what society was dealing with at the time it was set and the time it was released.
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Cat In The Hat movie, Home Alone, and Willy Wonka Remake, just movies that teach kids to be rude to and assault adults. Emperor's New Grove also is up there in y
 

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