Visitors cap per day?

[Trackmaster]

The obvious answer to this is in the other thread: that they should go up on ticket prices to temper the demand. It's a balance: you have to pay more to be there but it's more pleasant once you're there. Otherwise they just have to try and keep the guests spread out, which means longer lines for Small World. Before FP+ when my children were young (a decade ago) Small World was almost always a walk-on (as was HM in the evenings); now there's most often a line.

I'd say more important than raising prices on tickets would be to get the price that you pay to be more in line with the number of days that you're going to parks. People freak out about $110, $120, $130+ ticket prices, but they forget that only fools really ever actually pay that. Almost everybody is in the park on APs, multiday tickets, touring/group rates. Disney already doesn't do many discounts, but they need to get rid of any and all discounts that they currently have for starters. No economy of scale discounts. Maybe offer lesser prices for longer stays, but don't make it so ridiculous.

Now, a big culprit are the APs, but they're hands are tied with them. The stupid cheap rates for FL residents is more of a political maneuver than anything. The best way to lessen the impact from the FL residents like me who get to spam tons of free visits would be to close the Pound the App loophole, shorten the window for FP+ window. I'd say that AP holders should get the same window as CMs: seven days. Most AP holders make last minute visits anyway, so they don't need to plan out ahead. And when you're on vacation, you really need to get guaranteed production in. If you can't get on as a local AP holder, you can always come back.

And FP+ production is crucial. There's a 4:1 priority ratio over stand-by, so if low price per visit visitors are clogging up the FP+ line and making the stand-by line the "stand-still line" there's your problem right there. No amount of raising prices will solve these congestion issues unless you address the issues from low price per day guests.

 

[JIMINYCR]

what kind of a fool uses a park like a shopping mall, and carries bags around all day?

Not everything offerred in the parks can be found online. Lots of guests do carry bags around, store them in lockers, stash them in their backpacks, stuff them into strollers. Others have them sent back to resorts or shipped to their homes. MORE people does = more possible sales. People may be willing to eat at off times to avoid crowds, they also will shop at the end of a park day to avoid carrying bags or to avoid crowds as well.

 

[Trackmaster]

Not everything offerred in the parks can be found online. Lots of guests do carry bags around, store them in lockers, stash them in their backpacks, stuff them into strollers. Others have them sent back to resorts or shipped to their homes. MORE people does = more possible sales. People may be willing to eat at off times to avoid crowds, they also will shop at the end of a park day to avoid carrying bags or to avoid crowds as well.

I know, I know. Its unfortunate. I can't for the life of me figure out why people so obsessively spend money on objects that they don't need, and will never use that will only clutter their house up when they should be focused on riding rides, but its an unfortunate reality. I think that as Millennial take over more, retailer are going to have to adapt to our minimalism and our penchant for online shopping. Our infrastructure as a society is still geared towards the Baby Boomers, but eventually, enough malls will close, and enough brick and mortar retailers will get the picture. We want experiences, not materialism and clutter.

 

[thomas998]

I'd say more important than raising prices on tickets would be to get the price that you pay to be more in line with the number of days that you're going to parks. People freak out about $110, $120, $130+ ticket prices, but they forget that only fools really ever actually pay that. Almost everybody is in the park on APs, multiday tickets, touring/group rates. Disney already doesn't do many discounts, but they need to get rid of any and all discounts that they currently have for starters. No economy of scale discounts. Maybe offer lesser prices for longer stays, but don't make it so ridiculous.

Now, a big culprit are the APs, but they're hands are tied with them. The stupid cheap rates for FL residents is more of a political maneuver than anything. The best way to lessen the impact from the FL residents like me who get to spam tons of free visits would be to close the Pound the App loophole, shorten the window for FP+ window. I'd say that AP holders should get the same window as CMs: seven days. Most AP holders make last minute visits anyway, so they don't need to plan out ahead. And when you're on vacation, you really need to get guaranteed production in. If you can't get on as a local AP holder, you can always come back.

And FP+ production is crucial. There's a 4:1 priority ratio over stand-by, so if low price per visit visitors are clogging up the FP+ line and making the stand-by line the "stand-still line" there's your problem right there. No amount of raising prices will solve these congestion issues unless you address the issues from low price per day guests.

I think the better option would be to go back to the way it once was with tickets required for every ride and the old A to E ticket system. At that point you just need to start tweaking the price of the various tickets and you can get to a point that you get maximum profit and minimal lines for everything.

 

[Trackmaster]

I think the better option would be to go back to the way it once was with tickets required for every ride and the old A to E ticket system. At that point you just need to start tweaking the price of the various tickets and you can get to a point that you get maximum profit and minimal lines for everything.

I think I said this in another thread (I thought I said this here, but I can't find it) -- there's no way that Disney goes to a price per ride system. Charging for extra FP+? Sure. That was a 1950's style idea that worked then, but people now don't expect to be nickle and dimed when they're on vacation. Even regional parks would never dream of charging per ride. Charging per ride screams that you're a carnival style park or beach front park. Now, I do think that Disney should put up a carnival style park on the resort somewhere and maybe give it a beach theme and make it for hotel guests only -- but when your guests dropping that kind of money on a vacation, your marquee attractions should be carnival style stuff.

And from a psychology standpoint -- people won't drop $20 per ride out of pocket, but they may pay $100 for a ticket, ride five rides, and not realize it. People feel more at ease when everything is up front and the experience is buffet style. Paying out of pocket just kills the vibe. Its understandable for something that's completely utilitarian -- like commuting, a haircut, grocery shopping, etc. But things that are supposed to be fun make little sense to be charging people for a la carte.

Also think about it from the perspective of the park: most of their costs are fixed, not variable. When people use the product more, they think that they're getting a deal, but it actually costs the park itself nothing.

 

[thomas998]

I think I said this in another thread (I thought I said this here, but I can't find it) -- there's no way that Disney goes to a price per ride system. Charging for extra FP+? Sure. That was a 1950's style idea that worked then, but people now don't expect to be nickle and dimed when they're on vacation. Even regional parks would never dream of charging per ride. Charging per ride screams that you're a carnival style park or beach front park. Now, I do think that Disney should put up a carnival style park on the resort somewhere and maybe give it a beach theme and make it for hotel guests only -- but when your guests dropping that kind of money on a vacation, your marquee attractions should be carnival style stuff.

And from a psychology standpoint -- people won't drop $20 per ride out of pocket, but they may pay $100 for a ticket, ride five rides, and not realize it. People feel more at ease when everything is up front and the experience is buffet style. Paying out of pocket just kills the vibe. Its understandable for something that's completely utilitarian -- like commuting, a haircut, grocery shopping, etc. But things that are supposed to be fun make little sense to be charging people for a la carte.

Also think about it from the perspective of the park: most of their costs are fixed, not variable. When people use the product more, they think that they're getting a deal, but it actually costs the park itself nothing.

The reality is it worked in the past, there is no universal law in the world that says it would work today. I understand their will be people that would hate it, most certainly the people behind the fastpass because it would eliminate the need for a fastpass. But it would have substantial benefits. It would allow Disney to quantify the value every ride actually has and hopefully would then send a better message to drop some of them and put in something better. In the current system where you get all you want, but most of the "E" ticket rides have 90 minutes lines a lot of visitors are probably riding junk rides like People Mover simply because it is something to do. The problem is Disney's only metric to judge whether visitors like a ride is whether people ride it or not... they don't have anyone asking you if you really wanted People Mover or were just doing it to pass time. Charge a fee for every ride and you cut down on the people riding just because the ride they wanted was full for the next two hours.

The fact that guest pay more for the hotels than they are worth could still be dealt with by providing those guest with special packets of tickets. I know in the past you could buy booklets of tickets or it was possible to simply by a single ticket... so maybe the guests at hotels get the option of buying discounted books of tickets while the non-resort guest have to just buy tickets ala carte.

In the end they need to do something to deal with the overcrowded parks, at the rate they are going we go less and less to Disney every year because while the prices go up the number of rides we get on any given day just seem to keep dropping year after year as the lines seem longer and longer.

 

[Trackmaster]

The reality is it worked in the past, there is no universal law in the world that says it would work today. I understand their will be people that would hate it, most certainly the people behind the fastpass because it would eliminate the need for a fastpass. But it would have substantial benefits. It would allow Disney to quantify the value every ride actually has and hopefully would then send a better message to drop some of them and put in something better. In the current system where you get all you want, but most of the "E" ticket rides have 90 minutes lines a lot of visitors are probably riding junk rides like People Mover simply because it is something to do. The problem is Disney's only metric to judge whether visitors like a ride is whether people ride it or not... they don't have anyone asking you if you really wanted People Mover or were just doing it to pass time. Charge a fee for every ride and you cut down on the people riding just because the ride they wanted was full for the next two hours.

The fact that guest pay more for the hotels than they are worth could still be dealt with by providing those guest with special packets of tickets. I know in the past you could buy booklets of tickets or it was possible to simply by a single ticket... so maybe the guests at hotels get the option of buying discounted books of tickets while the non-resort guest have to just buy tickets ala carte.

In the end they need to do something to deal with the overcrowded parks, at the rate they are going we go less and less to Disney every year because while the prices go up the number of rides we get on any given day just seem to keep dropping year after year as the lines seem longer and longer.

OK, I do appreciate your willingness to think outside the box and try out new ideas. I do appreciate new ideas, and this is one that I used to think was an obvious, logical solution. But I think that charging per ride would be seen as "nickel and diming" and putting too much stress on people. The trend now is to go for more all inclusive price packages. As I was saying, guests don't like to know how much they're spending per ride. They'd be shocked otherwise. If you want to extract every last time, charge a lot of front, and make people think that they're getting a lot from you for "free" when in reality it costs you nothing.

Major parks crossed the threshold to abandon per ride tickets decades ago. Now they've moved beyond that, and the big thing is making season passes virtually the same cost as a single day ticket.

I think that the FP+ is a great compromise. They give out the ride guarantees and you pick your time, and you guaranteed, but limited production. But you can tough it out and wait in line a ton for extra rides. The FP+ is basically the counter to limiting and spreading out production to all guests.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Would WDW allow a visitors cap per day? Everyone complains the parks are too packed, and even when prices are going up, attendance keeps rising. Would this fix it?

No way in hell...

Their plan is to naturally amp over all attendance into the 60-70 mil annual range...while selling and reselling an average day in an elaborate web of “special events”....

Not hard to decipher...it’s out there for everyone to see.

 

[JIMINYCR]

I know, I know. Its unfortunate. I can't for the life of me figure out why people so obsessively spend money on objects that they don't need, and will never use that will only clutter their house up when they should be focused on riding rides,

Looong ago Walt was approached about marketing Mickey mouse and its never ceased. It was a gold mine for him at the time, bringing in much needed funds. Now its all things Disney and people will buy things that make them feel good. They may not go back to WDW ever again or for years but that Disney thing sits in their home or is worn on their body to remind them of a good time they had or a good memory. Impulse buy or a thought out purchase, they go home with t shirts, trinkets, pins, figurines, art, housewares, thats unique to Disney. Then you have the obsessed Disney collector who never stops adding to their collection.

 

[Trackmaster]

Looong ago Walt was approached about marketing Mickey mouse and its never ceased. It was a gold mine for him at the time, bringing in much needed funds. Now its all things Disney and people will buy things that make them feel good. They may not go back to WDW ever again or for years but that Disney thing sits in their home or is worn on their body to remind them of a good time they had or a good memory. Impulse buy or a thought out purchase, they go home with t shirts, trinkets, pins, figurines, art, housewares, thats unique to Disney. Then you have the obsessed Disney collector who never stops adding to their collection.

It completely boggles my mind. I try to do whatever I can to keep my worthless crap to a bare minimum. Parents just need to remember that all of the stuff that they buy at these places they'll be paying to store, and will be never be used again for the next 30 years until they move into the retirement community and its finally thrown away.

 

[JIMINYCR]

It completely boggles my mind. I try to do whatever I can to keep my worthless crap to a bare minimum. Parents just need to remember that all of the stuff that they buy at these places they'll be paying to store, and will be never be used again for the next 30 years until they move into the retirement community and its finally thrown away.

Usually the kids who inherit it all will fight over who gets what, then the rest gets sold at yard sales or they mass sell the house contents to an auction company.

 

[BoarderPhreak]

They're gonna pack people in until someone actually dies from stampeding...

Then scale back the cap by one.

 

[Trackmaster]

Usually the kids who inherit it all will fight over who gets what, then the rest gets sold at yard sales or they mass sell the house contents to an auction company.

I guess that's the case where hoarding runs in the family...

 

[SirWillow]

I know, I know. Its unfortunate. I can't for the life of me figure out why people so obsessively spend money on objects that they don't need, and will never use that will only clutter their house up when they should be focused on riding rides, but its an unfortunate reality. I think that as Millennial take over more, retailer are going to have to adapt to our minimalism and our penchant for online shopping.

You don't speak for all millennials. The ones I go to the parks with (my kids and their friends) spend as much, and often more, on things at the parks than I do. The only one that doesn't is my son, who's the big penny pincher (and coincidentally actually has the most money). But the rest I travel with are all shoppers and consumers at the parks. They aren't any more "minimal" or less inclined to shop and buy things than those of my generation- and in many cases more so.

It may be the people that you hang around with and talk with. But I work with teens and college students on a regular basis, as well as a number of adults in their 20's, and the minimalist view isn't as prevalent or common as media might make you think. Beware of their attempts to stereotype a whole age group of people- it's usually not accurate.

 

[Dad 2 M & M]

I agree with you but I disagree with you.

• But I disagree about in-park revenue. In my opinion, that doesn't necessarily go up on a linear scale based on how many park are at the park.

Right on! Most people make the linear assumption and don't realize it is a curve, with diminishing returns involved, hence the curve. At some point it tracks back downward. My comment is extremely over-simplified, but holds true

Well if you have MORE paying customers, they bring in more money. Increased lines at the register grow, but eventually the waiting customer does hand over their money. Disney doesnt have really a finite supply of merchandise, they continue to restock, yes, until a peice is sold out. Its different at the restaurants because you can only seat a number of guests in any dining period.

At some point the additional guest does not equate to additional customer spending money, or more specifically, does not equate to spending the same amount of money......

Nah, especially with merchandise, you can only turn over so many people at the register. This is especially true at the over the counter food places. I can't count how many times I've been more than willing to trade my hard earned cash for food but opted to wait until after the park due to the long lines. So clearly, there's not a linear relationship with guests in the park, and revenue earned from concessions. And as far as retail goes, who's to say that people wouldn't just order the same stuff online if it wasn't available in the park? Other than incidentals that you need that day, what kind of a fool uses a park like a shopping mall, and carries bags around all day?

You sound as if you have an Economic background (I'm not being sarcastic)?

I'd say more important than raising prices on tickets would be to get the price that you pay to be more in line with the number of days that you're going to parks. People freak out about $110, $120, $130+ ticket prices, but they forget that only fools really ever actually pay that. Almost everybody is in the park on APs, multiday tickets, touring/group rates. Disney already doesn't do many discounts, but they need to get rid of any and all discounts that they currently have for starters. No economy of scale discounts. Maybe offer lesser prices for longer stays, but don't make it so ridiculous.

Now, a big culprit are the APs, but they're hands are tied with them. The stupid cheap rates for FL residents is more of a political maneuver than anything. The best way to lessen the impact from the FL residents like me who get to spam tons of free visits would be to close the Pound the App loophole, shorten the window for FP+ window. I'd say that AP holders should get the same window as CMs: seven days. Most AP holders make last minute visits anyway, so they don't need to plan out ahead. And when you're on vacation, you really need to get guaranteed production in. If you can't get on as a local AP holder, you can always come back.

And FP+ production is crucial. There's a 4:1 priority ratio over stand-by, so if low price per visit visitors are clogging up the FP+ line and making the stand-by line the "stand-still line" there's your problem right there. No amount of raising prices will solve these congestion issues unless you address the issues from low price per day guests.

Well done!

The APs are the issue with crowding of the Parks. Raising the ticket prices would do little to reduce the crowds.......the Economics of it are the Demand Curve is set, and has little if anything to do with Supply. The problem is more Micro, than Macro. In the Disney Attendance specific Macro, there are several Demand Curves in play. They would include AP Demand, Multi-Day, Single Day, International, etc....

The Price Elasticity would dictate what happens when the price is changed. Any change in price would result in a change the QUANTITY DEMANDED.....a movement along the existing Demand Curve, not move the Demand Curve.

Looking at all non-AP ticket sales, it appears Disney is operating on the Demand Curve where the price is Inelastic. There in lies the issue. When the price is Inelastic, you can increase the price without an inverse movement of the Quantity Demanded. So, Disney could raise the ticket prices, and not only not see a reduction in Quantity Demanded, but the continued increasing crowds. This is horrifying to think the current relationship with raising price and quantity demanded is a Direct Relationship, as they both move in the same direction. At some point prices would reach peak, and the relationship would become inverse, as higher prices would result in less ticket sales (this is the Law of Diminishing Returns). At this point the Price would be Elastic, and the Guest could expect less price volatility. When Price is Elastic, an increase in price would result in a decrease in Quantity Demanded.....we are nowhere near that part of the Curve.

One last note on Diminishing Returns........if Disney reached the point where a price increase reduced the quantity demanded, it would still be feasible, and quite likely the Revenue, AND Income form that next group of higher paying guests would not reduce......still more people buying tickets....

This was greatly over-simplified and was specific to Non-AP tickets sales......Disney is not really a place to attempt to apply any Economic principles or theory.....

 

[Dad 2 M & M]

You don't speak for all millennials. The ones I go to the parks with (my kids and their friends) spend as much, and often more, on things at the parks than I do. The only one that doesn't is my son, who's the big penny pincher (and coincidentally actually has the most money). But the rest I travel with are all shoppers and consumers at the parks. They aren't any more "minimal" or less inclined to shop and buy things than those of my generation- and in many cases more so.

It may be the people that you hang around with and talk with. But I work with teens and college students on a regular basis, as well as a number of adults in their 20's, and the minimalist view isn't as prevalent or common as media might make you think. Beware of their attempts to stereotype a whole age group of people- it's usually not accurate.

Beware of the media? It's usually not accurate? Thank you for your insight.....and stereotyping of the media. The media is the safest of targets to stereotype!

 

[eliza61nyc]

I know, I know. Its unfortunate. I can't for the life of me figure out why people so obsessively spend money on objects that they don't need, and will never use that will only clutter their house up when they should be focused on riding rides, but its an unfortunate reality. I think that as Millennial take over more, retailer are going to have to adapt to our minimalism and our penchant for online shopping. Our infrastructure as a society is still geared towards the Baby Boomers, but eventually, enough malls will close, and enough brick and mortar retailers will get the picture. We want experiences, not materialism and clutter.

Lol be careful what you ask for, over 50% of the US economy is based on consumerism. If people stop buying "objects", your wdw experience is going to drop precipitously. Those objects have tremendous markup and help pay for other stuff.

 

[Dad 2 M & M]

Lol be careful what you ask for, over 50% of the US economy is based on consumerism. If people stop buying "objects", your wdw experience is going to drop precipitously. Those objects have tremendous markup and help pay for other stuff.

50% is consumerism....and that is scary!! The percentage of "non-object" is sooo high nowadays. Doubt we in the USA ever see the days of high manufacturing again. I wonder what part of those objects are from a domestic source?

 

[SirWillow]

Beware of the media? It's usually not accurate? Thank you for your insight.....and stereotyping of the media. The media is the safest of targets to stereotype!

Ok, let me be more specific. When it comes to news generally I trust the media. When it comes to how they portray certain groups, and when they go on the opinion and analysis, no, I don't. And it doesn't matter which way they trend. In those spectrums their ultimate goal is to attract advertising dollars and get people to tune in or read, so a bit of stereotyping or painting with overly broad strokes to reach the point they want to appeal to the audience they want isn't a big deal.

I find that when I actually dig into real research and study, and especially when I get hands on with those groups, that what's out there is very often quite different than how they are portrayed. That's true of teens, college students, my generation, the homeless, and a number of other groups that if you saw the reality and then saw what's said about them in media, you'd wonder if they were even on the same planet sometimes. (and yes, I work directly with all of those groups through my work- my real job, not the YouTube bit)

 

[UncleMike101]

I have heard from time to time parks closed to capacity, and I have drove to a park to be told the parking lot was full and I was directed to park someplace else, but was never denied access to a park.

We drove to EPCOT on New Years Eve one year it was early afternoon and there was cars everywhere; the grass areas near the front if EPCOT were full of cars, folks just parking anywhere. I think we just parked anywhere and were let in. It was standing room only, mobs of people everywhere, all the walking areas, were full, folks were just camped out on the grass waiting for midnight. A lot of pushing and shoving! I came close to being banned for life that day! We gave up and went home after a little bit.

I would be interested to hear from folks if they have been or have seen any one holding a valid ticket being turned away at the turnstile because of capacity?

Yup.......
It was the Fourth of July in, I believe, 1985, before Noon.
We were in Epcot when an announcement came over the park speakers that if anyone was waiting on friends or relatives to enter the park they would not be allowed in until some of the guest already in Epcot had left.
I was told later by a CM that the Fire Marshall's office had been tipped off to the fact that the park was over legal capacity and had ordered the entrance to be closed.
People were finally allowed into the park later in the evening.