How badly Leave a Legacy failed!

raven

Well-Known Member
I am not saying it is impossible or even "difficult." What I am saying is that the entrance to a park, absent a compelling story reason, should have the effect of making you want to walk in. That is true for any space design. You pull people toward a point of reference. (for an example, look at a basic single-point perspective drawing). With this, you have strong horizontal lines that visually and physically block your path absent a fairly small central column. The better approach is long, horizontal lines that draw to the point. While I respect your opinion, I have to say, from a pure design approach, the layout is poor IMHO.
http://local.live.com/default.aspx?...t=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3949786&encType=1

Look at your picture again. Do you see anyone ever walking through the stones or even lost? Every person in this photo shows them walking an easy path next to the planter or elsewhere around the stones.

MK's entrance to new visitors isn't very visual either. Most new visitors expect to see the castle the moment they walk through the gates but it doesn't happen until a coule of minutes later. If people navigate through MK's entrance tunnels what's the big deal about heading straight towards SE in front of you? It never been a problem in my mind. Again...my own opinion.
 

CThaddeus

New Member
Look at your picture again. Do you see anyone ever walking through the stones or even lost? Every person in this photo shows them walking an easy path next to the planter or elsewhere around the stones.

MK's entrance to new visitors isn't very visual either. Most new visitors expect to see the castle the moment they walk through the gates but it doesn't happen until a coule of minutes later. If people navigate through MK's entrance tunnels what's the big deal about heading straight towards SE in front of you? It never been a problem in my mind. Again...my own opinion.

Actually, I disagree about the Magic Kingdom proper. Now I agree that it's not terribly visual when you get to the parking lot, have to take a tram to the TTC, and then have to take yet another form of transportation to the main gate. However, once you are inside the turnstiles, I think what you are presented with is very dynamic and visual. In addition to the beautiful Mickey-shaped flower garden (one of the most photgraphed spots in every Disney Park), you've also got the Disney World Railroad Station. And if the train happens to be there at that moment, it's even more beautiful. Yes, you can't see the Castle yet, but who said you need to see the centerpiece of the Park the moment you walk through the turnstile?
Now, take Disney-MGM. That's a rotten visual. Seeing that Hat at the end of a 1920s version of Hollywood is about the most out of place thing I've ever seen in a Disney Park...even more so than the Wand was.
Are the Tombstones difficult to navigate? No, I suppose not. They just feel like an ugly thing I have to quickly get past to enjoy the amazing Spaceship Earth.
 

Epcot82Guy

Well-Known Member
Look at your picture again. Do you see anyone ever walking through the stones or even lost? Every person in this photo shows them walking an easy path next to the planter or elsewhere around the stones.

MK's entrance to new visitors isn't very visual either. Most new visitors expect to see the castle the moment they walk through the gates but it doesn't happen until a coule of minutes later. If people navigate through MK's entrance tunnels what's the big deal about heading straight towards SE in front of you? It never been a problem in my mind. Again...my own opinion.

True, but a few things.

First, twenty people are not a good representation of crowd behavior, especially when it appears the only open gate is directly in front of the center entrance.

Second, there are openings in the first set of stones that lead to blocked pathways. People don't walk between them because they are very offputting in that regard. I argue that the most effective design WOULD have people walking between them.

Third, if you look at the pathway, they cut directly across it directly. In fact, they cut back a little bit toward the entrance. People don't travel in angles like that naturally. It's a barrier to the mind. It's not a funnel like the MK entry is (expansive, then curves you in - I know it is actually squared off, but people walk in curved lines). OR, it directs the eye to the sides AWAY from SSE and the central pathway (we go from high to low naturally when it is in front of us).

The problem is that you have two competing structures here. The stones, albeit harshly, push you toward the center and back. But, the center is blocked by the planter, so, in a visual line from the sides, you are pushed right back out the front gate. We follow the acute angle whenever possible; it's human nature. :) When you walk in, you aren't really sure where to go because an obstacle is in your way no matter where you go, especially from the side entrances where the walkway is not directly in front of you.

Again, I understand your point, but I'm trying to analyze it from design perspectives. It's basic design principles on how one's eye works and, in turn, their movements. While people can figure out the center walkway, an entry way is the LAST place you want that to happen. You should see the target (the fountain or walkways under SSE in this case), and everything around you should push you directly toward that.

Again, this could be done very easily by either pushing the stones closer together, visually changing the concrete color, and or, lining up any walkways through the stones.
 

raven

Well-Known Member
Actually, I disagree about the Magic Kingdom proper.

I never said MK was a bad entrance. I just used it as an example that it's easier to see the main icon of the park (SE) at Epcot than it is at MK. I said you have to navigate through the tunnels and around the main street park area before you see the castle at MK. At Epcot you can see it clear from the parking lot...and then some!

I was just trying to clear up how entering Epcot isn't hard to navigate to the main Icon as it is at the other parks. MK, AK, and even MGM takes you a while to actually enter the parks icon building once you go through the gates. At Epcot you are right there. That's why it's hard for me to hear how people are confused by the entrance. Look up! Follow that giant globe hovering over you! :lol:
 

BuzzComplexCM

New Member
Actually, I disagree about the Magic Kingdom proper. Now I agree that it's not terribly visual when you get to the parking lot, have to take a tram to the TTC, and then have to take yet another form of transportation to the main gate. However, once you are inside the turnstiles, I think what you are presented with is very dynamic and visual. In addition to the beautiful Mickey-shaped flower garden (one of the most photgraphed spots in every Disney Park), you've also got the Disney World Railroad Station. And if the train happens to be there at that moment, it's even more beautiful. Yes, you can't see the Castle yet, but who said you need to see the centerpiece of the Park the moment you walk through the turnstile?

It should also be noted that when the MK was built, it was built in a certain way. As I learned in my "Once Upon A Time Is Now" class from Casting the MK is built to represent a movie. The transpotation over to the parks is the suspense waiting for the movie to begin. Once the guests enter the park the Train Station is similar to a curtain rising (It blocks the guests view of Main Street and the Castle, keeping the guests in suspense). Main Street acts as the opening credits (this can be found by the names in the windows of Imagineers, Walt Disney, Roy Disney, and the company names used by Walt when he bought the land). The castle itself is the movie begining. The guests have finally arrived at their destination. The seven themed lands represent the story within the movie. The only difference is, the guests make the movie themselves.

Kind of neat if you think about it.
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
It should also be noted that when the MK was built, it was built in a certain way. As I learned in my "Once Upon A Time Is Now" class from Casting the MK is built to represent a movie. The transpotation over to the parks is the suspense waiting for the movie to begin. Once the guests enter the park the Train Station is similar to a curtain rising (It blocks the guests view of Main Street and the Castle, keeping the guests in suspense). Main Street acts as the opening credits (this can be found by the names in the windows of Imagineers, Walt Disney, Roy Disney, and the company names used by Walt when he bought the land). The castle itself is the movie begining. The guests have finally arrived at their destination. The seven themed lands represent the story within the movie. The only difference is, the guests make the movie themselves.

Kind of neat if you think about it.

That is pretty neat, and not to be cynical, but my bet is they conjured that story up after the entrance to MK was already built, and someone noticed, "Hey, this is kind of like a movie, if you think about it."
 
I think the concept is great, they should of been more creative with the stone walls. Like make the stone walls mickey heads and other character shaped heads or something. Other then that, I have no problem with them. Plus, my family has a picture on there.
 

Epcot82Guy

Well-Known Member
I think the concept is great, they should of been more creative with the stone walls. Like make the stone walls mickey heads and other character shaped heads or something. Other then that, I have no problem with them. Plus, my family has a picture on there.


While I respect your opinion, I will slowly walk away from this thread

***before I throw something... :hammer:
 

BuzzComplexCM

New Member
That is pretty neat, and not to be cynical, but my bet is they conjured that story up after the entrance to MK was already built, and someone noticed, "Hey, this is kind of like a movie, if you think about it."

Not being cynical at all, you may be right, you may be wrong. Even so, it's nice to see that a park was built with a layout that can be enjoyed by everyone and does it's part; it provides excitment and suspense for first timers and veterans.
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
Not being cynical at all, you may be right, you may be wrong. Even so, it's nice to see that a park was built with a layout that can be enjoyed by everyone and does it's part; it provides excitment and suspense for first timers and veterans.

Definitely. And no matter why it's like that, it definitely does the trick. Entering Magic Kingdom is always an exhilarating experience.
 

Crazy4blustitch

New Member
Now, just hear me out lol

I've never seen Epcot pre-wand & pre LAL, so I don't know what Epcot really looks like without it.

All I know that we left a tile on our honeymoon. And it means alot to me being the fact that it was a major moment in our life and that we left a piece of us behind in our favorite park.

Last i heard there was a possible move to somewhere in MGM or Somewhere in World Showcase.

If it's headding to MGM i'm prying my tiles off with a swiss army knife..I don't like MGM...I love epcot..

I can honestly say it won't be the same for me without the wand & LAL walls.

But I can see it from the eyes of the guests who knew and grew to love Epcot before everything was put up.

I guess it just effects people in different ways.. but i'm glad that we left tiles.

Oh i have to agree on the walls.. they are ugly..the couldn't have come up with something a little better then that??!!
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
I think the concept is great, they should of been more creative with the stone walls. Like make the stone walls mickey heads and other character shaped heads or something. Other then that, I have no problem with them. Plus, my family has a picture on there.

Good idea, except the purists will be having a Wandcon level fit at the thought. The tombstones are a contemporary design in keeping with the surroundings perhaps a mousehead shape could be used in another park. IMHO of course.
 

wdwCC

New Member
I don't think it's a failure. If they made a profit on it, it's not a failure. Do you have the P/L statements for the project? Speaking as one who bought 3 tiles, I kind of like the idea since I didn't get one of the stones over at MK.
 

Sir_Cliff

Well-Known Member
Yes, he is critical of a lot of things Disney related. Maybe to the point of beating a dead horse sometimes. So what? He is critical not because he is some troll who wants everyone to hate Disney, but because he wants the parks to be the best they can be. Is this really so bad?
Exactly. If he was trolling that would be one thing, but he's clearly a guy who loves Epcot and has strong opinions about what goes on there. He also posts when he's excited about something going on at Epcot. This thread started with reasoning that people may not agree with, but at least it had its basis in some facts and figures rather than some random inflammatory statement.

I'm extremely surprised that this topic has proved so controversial. A lot of people on this board seem very sensitive to criticism of Disney.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Exactly. If he was trolling that would be one thing, but he's clearly a guy who loves Epcot and has strong opinions about what goes on there. He also posts when he's excited about something going on at Epcot. This thread started with reasoning that people may not agree with, but at least it had its basis in some facts and figures rather than some random inflammatory statement.

I'm extremely surprised that this topic has proved so controversial. A lot of people on this board seem very sensitive to criticism of Disney.
I believe the bigger statement that people took offense to was a suggestion that anyone who actually bought one of the tiles was stupid and gullible. Do you like being called stupid and/or gullible? I know I don't.
 

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