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DAK “Zootopia” is being created for the Tree of Life theater

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
Disney has not said it's for kids/teens. Disney labels it all ages. People just assume it's for kids because it sucks.

Yep! And this mentality that some Disney park fans adopt whenever an attraction sucks is, again, actively hurting the parks. When people just hand wave it like this, it tells Disney that they don’t have to try.

“It’s fine because my kid was mildly amused. Therefor every adult who has issue with it is just an obsessed weirdo.”

No! Attractions that are only mildly amusing to your kid, not anymore memorable than some random kids YouTube video or Disney+ short, are NOT what made the Disney parks successful and why people keep going.

And to clarify, I know that ITTBAB was not an E-ticket either, but it was well executed and had plenty of moments that resonated with people after seeing it.
 

AidenRodriguez731

Well-Known Member
How about you just go back and read the thread, starting at when previews started a few months ago? But even in the last few pages we've been discussing many of the reasons it is slop.

"Slop" = low effort, churned out, cynical, incoherent media that elicits no emotions. Better Zoogether also seems like it was at least partially created by AI, so it's at least "AI slop" adjacent. The line in the song "We love what we've got! It's a melting pot!" just screams AI, for instance.
What about it is low effort or "churned out"? It's not cynical and has an upbeat message. Incoherent? it has a clear story that is able to be figured out like YOU said yourself.

I have seen 0 evidence of it being AI as well. Everyone just says everything they don't like is AI. Another meaningless buzzword that doesn't actually address the real problem of AI and how its a genuine threat to creativity but just diminishing that because a lyric didn't sound good for you.
 

Dranth

Well-Known Member
Finally saw this in person during our trip late last year and I will give it this, in person it was much better than the YouTube video I watched when it came out. Still pretty bad in my opinion and while I hate the term low effort for something like this because I bet a lot of people worked extremely hard, I can see why people would feel that way.

More power to those that like it, but I doubt we will spend the time seeing it again.
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
What about it is low effort or "churned out"? It's not cynical and has an upbeat message. Incoherent? it has a clear story that is able to be figured out like YOU said yourself.

I have seen 0 evidence of it being AI as well. Everyone just says everything they don't like is AI. Another meaningless buzzword that doesn't actually address the real problem of AI and how its a genuine threat to creativity but just diminishing that because a lyric didn't sound good for you.

It's extremely low effort in a multitude of ways.

For starters, it makes zero sense to put this in the Tree of Life Theater. They are humanoid animals living in human-like cities, why would they have a theater under a giant tree? It made sense for insects, because they live there. You were actually supposed to be bug-sized and in the root system of the Tree of Life. So, right off the bat, you have an attraction that is completely out of place for its location and the structure it is within.

It's low effort because they didn't make any sort of attempt to make it fit with Animal Kingdom. This has been said ad nauseam, but I guess I'll repeat it again. Animal Kingdom is a park about real animals and the locations they inhabit. Yes, sometimes they talk, but they're still real animals and living adjacent to how real animals live. Zootopia is a movie about humanoid animals living like humans, as a stand-in for humans, to discuss human social issues. The movie actively wants you to mock and laugh at animal traits, and the show itself does this too. Anyone who has thought about DAK beyond the absolute surface level ("Animals!!!!!! DUH!!!") can see that it is inappropriate for the park.

But beyond that, it's low effort because even if they're humanoid animals, they could have talked about something related to the park, perhaps the differences in the ecosystems and habitats of the districts the different animals live in. But instead they focused on inclusion, which is fine, but better suited for other parks. It's also a bit lazy because it's a rehash of the message of the first film's message.

It's low effort because it doesn't do anything to justify being a theme park attraction. This could just as easily be a Disney+ short, whereas It's Tough to Be a Bug only works in a special effects theater setting. You're not experiencing a recreation of a live experience, you're basically just watching a short. If that makes sense? ITTBAB was a "live" stage performance and it made every effort to feel like one, while Better Zoogether is also supposed to be "live" but makes no attempt to seem like it's actually a live thing we are experiencing in real time. More on that later.

So to recap, before we even get to the content within, you have an attraction that made no real attempt to fit the location its in, the theme of the park, the message of the park, or justify its existence as a theme park attraction.

Now, the content. It's low effort because there is no logical sense of time. Judy and Nick are somehow able to get all across Zootopia within seconds. It plays out like a cartoon short where a cut to a new location would suggest a gap in time, but Better Zoogether is supposed to all be being presented "live" and in "real time".

It's low effort because it immediately discards the premise and setup. We're at a watch party, watching a livestream of drone and camera footage at the various celebrations across Zootopia. We're wearing Carrot-Vision goggles so we can see, hear, smell, and feel what the drones and cameras are picking up. Okay, fine. But that premise is almost immediately abandoned. The "camera" immediately just cuts around like any other cartoon short and is clearly not something that drones or cameras on the scene could be capturing. Judy and Nick are somehow able to see into our audience and communicate back. How? Through the drone? Why don't they at least look at the camera and not directly at Clawhauser?

It's low effort because the entire thing is just constant chaos, noise, screaming, no sense of pacing, no moments to breathe, characters talking over each other, constant camera cuts and zooms. Cut to new location, instant chaos, race to the next, instant chaos. They arrive at the concert and instantly know exactly what the danger is? I don't know, there's so much to pick apart here but it's too exhausting to watch again and comb through it. While I acknowledge that there are individual moments in the show that could have been funny and entertaining if they were given some room to breathe, those moments end up buried in the chaos.

....

I don't think I even covered all the ways it is low effort, but that's a start. Now on to why it's "cynical". It's cynical in the sense that it is was "churned out", made apparent by the reasons I just mentioned. It wasn't created because anyone actually thought this was a great attraction idea, a great fit for the park, and was inspired to make something great. No, it was created because Disney exec's wanted to push synergy and market Zootopia in the parks in the easiest, most low effort way possible.

(Let me take a moment to clarify that I know that a lot of talented people actually had to do things like art design, animation, voice acting, etc etc for the attraction and I'm not talking about them. They worked with what they had to and were required to do. I'm talking purely about the executives and whatever high-up decision makers that mandated that this attraction be made at all.)

It's cynical because the "upbeat message" is cloying, pandering, and spoon-fed to the audience. They outright state what you're supposed to take away from it. It comes off as Disney caring more about focus groups and PR than actually delivering a resonating message in a meaningful way, or having something interesting to say. The original Zootopia film didn't do it so ham-fisted, but it is here.

It's cynical because after all of that, they then try so hard to convince everyone that "no, this totally fits DAK. See?" Like sullying the meaning of the beautiful Tree of Life structure. The citizens of Zootopia carved it? Why would they carve real animals when they are humanoid animals? Not to mention that instead of it being a magical tree, it's now a defaced tree?

...

And, okay, I'm tired of typing. But that's.... that's a lot of reasons why it sucks!
 
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Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
Also, making this a separate post because I'm sure there will be people that dismiss everything I just said as "just some obsessive nerd that cares too much". Well, yeah, I am a big nerd, but I will point out that the reason the parks were originally great is because they had people actually thinking about the type of things I just talked about making the decisions.

When they stop having people who "care too much" create things for them, they end up with, well... slop.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
It's extremely low effort in a multitude of ways.

For starters, it makes zero sense to put this in the Tree of Life Theater. They are humanoid animals living in human-like cities, why would they have a theater under a giant tree? It made sense for insects, because they live there. You were actually supposed to be bug-sized and in the root system of the Tree of Life. So, right off the bat, you have an attraction that is completely out of place for its location and the structure it is within.

It's low effort because they didn't make any sort of attempt to make it fit with Animal Kingdom. This has been said ad nauseam, but I guess I'll repeat it again. Animal Kingdom is a park about real animals and the locations they inhabit. Yes, sometimes they talk, but they're still real animals and living adjacent to how real animals live. Zootopia is a movie about humanoid animals living like humans, as a stand-in for humans, to discuss human social issues. The movie actively wants you to mock and laugh at animal traits, and the show itself does this too. Anyone who has thought about DAK beyond the absolute surface level ("Animals!!!!!! DUH!!!") can see that it is inappropriate for the park.

But beyond that, it's low effort because even if they're humanoid animals, they could have talked about something related to the park, perhaps the differences in the ecosystems and habitats of the districts the different animals live in. But instead they focused on inclusion, which is fine, but better suited for other parks. It's also a bit lazy because it's a rehash of the message of the first film's message.

It's low effort because it doesn't do anything to justify being a theme park attraction. This could just as easily be a Disney+ short, whereas It's Tough to Be a Bug only works in a special effects theater setting. You're not experiencing a recreation of a live experience, you're basically just watching a short. If that makes sense? ITTBAB was a "live" stage performance and it made every effort to feel like one, while Better Zoogether is also supposed to be "live" but makes no attempt to seem like it's actually a live thing we are experiencing in real time. More on that later.

So to recap, before we even get to the content within, you have an attraction that made no real attempt to fit the location its in, the theme of the park, the message of the park, or justify its existence as a theme park attraction.

Now, the content. It's low effort because there is no logical sense of time. Judy and Nick are somehow able to get all across Zootopia within seconds. It plays out like a cartoon short where a cut to a new location would suggest a gap in time, but Better Zoogether is supposed to all be being presented "live" and in "real time".

It's low effort because it immediately discards the premise and setup. We're at a watch party, watching a livestream of drone and camera footage at the various celebrations across Zootopia. We're wearing Carrot-Vision goggles so we can see, hear, smell, and feel what the drones and cameras are picking up. Okay, fine. But that premise is almost immediately abandoned. The "camera" immediately just cuts around like any other cartoon short and is clearly not something that drones or cameras on the scene could be capturing. Judy and Nick are somehow able to see into our audience and communicate back. How? Through the drone? Why don't they at least look at the camera and not directly at Clawhauser?

It's low effort because the entire thing is just constant chaos, noise, screaming, no sense of pacing, no moments to breathe, characters talking over each other, constant camera cuts and zooms. Cut to new location, instant chaos, race to the next, instant chaos. They arrive at the concert and instantly know exactly what the danger is? I don't know, there's so much to pick apart here but it's too exhausting to watch again and comb through it. While I acknowledge that there are individual moments in the show that could have been funny and entertaining if they were given some room to breathe, those moments end up buried in the chaos.

....

I don't think I even covered all the ways it is low effort, but that's a start. Now on to why it's "cynical". It's cynical in the sense that it is was "churned out", made apparent by the reasons I just mentioned. It wasn't created because anyone actually thought this was a great attraction idea, a great fit for the park, and was inspired to make something great. No, it was created because Disney exec's wanted to push synergy and market Zootopia in the parks in the easiest, most low effort way possible.

(Let me take a moment to clarify that I know that a lot of talented people actually had to do things like art design, animation, voice acting, etc etc for the attraction and I'm not talking about them. They worked with what they had to and were required to do. I'm talking purely about the executives and whatever high-up decision makers that mandated that this attraction be made at all.)

It's cynical because the "upbeat message" is cloying, pandering, and spoon-fed to the audience. They outright state what you're supposed to take away from it. It comes off as Disney caring more about focus groups and PR than actually delivering a resonating message in a meaningful way, or having something interesting to say. The original Zootopia film didn't do it so ham-fisted, but it is here.

It's cynical because after all of that, they then try so hard to convince everyone that "no, this totally fits DAK. See?" Like sullying the meaning of the beautiful Tree of Life structure. The citizens of Zootopia carved it? Why would they carve real animals when they are humanoid animals? Not to mention that instead of it being a magical tree, it's now a defaced tree?

...

And, okay, I'm tired of typing. But that's.... that's a lot of reasons why it sucks!
Did you type this out on your phone? :p
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
“WE’RE POLLINATORS!” is DAK’s version of “Veggie, Veggie, Fruit, Fruit”.

I always got chills from the upbeat music and tune accompanying the dark truth lyrics: "And if all bugs were wiped off the face of the planet, there'd soon be no humans around left to man it"

Also the dark humor in the closing message from Flik: "And remember, magnifying glasses are for looking at little things, not for... burning little things."

ITTBAB had some edge. It understood the assignment of being a show that, while using cartoons from a kid-friendly film, was still something adults would find cool and entertaining. The parents who complained that it was too scary for their smallest children missed the point - it wasn't actually intended for toddlers.

People in general make the mistake way too often of assuming: thing based on cartoon = has to be innocuous and its okay if it sucks because kids are easily entertained.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Yesterday marked the 25th anniversary of Superstar Limo, a ride so bad it didn't even last long enough to see mark one year of operation. In the history of Disney's parks, there have been attractions that were so poorly received or so difficult to operate that they simply closed, despite how much money or effort went into their creation

For how much talent Disney boats, how high budgets are and the asking price is for customers to experience them, "good enough" or "it's fine, whatever" should not be accepted. Experiences can be judged on their own merits based on their complexity or intended audience, but with few exceptions, most Disney World attractions should have a level of cross generational appeal. They're not just for kids, and kids certainly are not the ones paying to see them.

We know from previous 3D experiences how good or bad these shows can be and what Disney is capable of. It benefits no one to simply shrug something like this off, as if this was some quick fix due for imminent replacement. We know how long "temporary" can end up being in WDW.

Of course some people will like it. Presumably some people liked Superstar Limo too, but it was recognized that for the benefit of the park, and the majority of guests, it should be retired and replaced. Part of being a creative is appreciating and recognizing feedback for your work, even if it's stated bluntly.

Disney tweaking rides to improve them post opening still happens. Avengers Flight Force in Paris is a very recent example of this, as is the work being done now to Frozen Ever After at EPCOT. There's certainly room for improvement with Zootopia and if this is what we have for the next decade plus, in a park short on attractions to begin with, than we should all hope Disney does better and learn from their mistakes here.
 

Chi84

Premium Member
We should all be open to the idea that the experience of others matters, and that the experience of others has the power to persuade us, even when their methodology is flawed.
Are you saying we should shame them into agreeing with us? If not, did you quote my post by mistake?
 
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Basil of Baker Street

Well-Known Member
Yesterday marked the 25th anniversary of Superstar Limo, a ride so bad it didn't even last long enough to see mark one year of operation. In the history of Disney's parks, there have been attractions that were so poorly received or so difficult to operate that they simply closed, despite how much money or effort went into their creation

For how much talent Disney boats, how high budgets are and the asking price is for customers to experience them, "good enough" or "it's fine, whatever" should not be accepted. Experiences can be judged on their own merits based on their complexity or intended audience, but with few exceptions, most Disney World attractions should have a level of cross generational appeal. They're not just for kids, and kids certainly are not the ones paying to see them.

We know from previous 3D experiences how good or bad these shows can be and what Disney is capable of. It benefits no one to simply shrug something like this off, as if this was some quick fix due for imminent replacement. We know how long "temporary" can end up being in WDW.

Of course some people will like it. Presumably some people liked Superstar Limo too, but it was recognized that for the benefit of the park, and the majority of guests, it should be retired and replaced. Part of being a creative is appreciating and recognizing feedback for your work, even if it's stated bluntly.

Disney tweaking rides to improve them post opening still happens. Avengers Flight Force in Paris is a very recent example of this, as is the work being done now to Frozen Ever After at EPCOT. There's certainly room for improvement with Zootopia and if this is what we have for the next decade plus, in a park short on attractions to begin with, than we should all hope Disney does better and learn from their mistakes here.
Difference being a quarter century ago, it was "Show" above all else. Disney would eat a hundred mil to fix it than have something below their standards.

Zoogether will be around for a long time.
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
Difference being a quarter century ago, it was "Show" above all else. Disney would eat a hundred mil to fix it than have something below their standards.

Zoogether will be around for a long time.
The problem is that the things "below standards" now are generally not so because they're technologically unimpressive, cheap, or fail to tap into something popular. Nearly every attraction is, if anything, overbuilt, massively expensive, and based on popular IP, and pouring in more money won't necessarily help. The issue is really that, at least with some notable portion of Imagineering, the show-don't-tell paradigm has been completely inverted; the "storytelling" focus they've been peddling for the past half decade is not their strength, or at least not in the way they think. That said, I'm not sure if this is wholly due to Imagineering or if perhaps the studios have some degree of control over content (e.g. TBA tying into the defunct D+ show, Zootopia getting oversight due to its proximity to the sequel's release, etc.).
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Imagine if they start trying to cash in on Animal Kingdom nostalgia in a couple decades like they do in Epcot.
There is not as much nostalgia there seeing as not much has changed until recently but since they are now making retro items for the original 2001-era DCA, I guess anything is possible.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
The problem is that the things "below standards" now are generally not so because they're technologically unimpressive, cheap, or fail to tap into something popular. Nearly every attraction is, if anything, overbuilt, massively expensive, and based on popular IP, and pouring in more money won't necessarily help. The issue is really that, at least with some notable portion of Imagineering, the show-don't-tell paradigm has been completely inverted; the "storytelling" focus they've been peddling for the past half decade is not their strength, or at least not in the way they think. That said, I'm not sure if this is wholly due to Imagineering or if perhaps the studios have some degree of control over content (e.g. TBA tying into the defunct D+ show, Zootopia getting oversight due to its proximity to the sequel's release, etc.).
I am still not sure whether TBA was an honest effort to try to create a new beloved attraction and worthy replacement for Splash or if it was just kill Splash, who cares what replaces it.
 

DisneyHead123

Well-Known Member
The issue is really that, at least with some notable portion of Imagineering, the show-don't-tell paradigm has been completely inverted; the "storytelling" focus they've been peddling for the past half decade is not their strength, or at least not in the way they think. That said, I'm not sure if this is wholly due to Imagineering or if perhaps the studios have some degree of control over content (e.g. TBA tying into the defunct D+ show, Zootopia getting oversight due to its proximity to the sequel's release, etc.).

This may have already been posted, but I saw this article the other day that may explain part of this:


Granted a ride is much shorter than a movie, but it may become an engrained storytelling style after a point.
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
I am still not sure whether TBA was an honest effort to try to create a new beloved attraction and worthy replacement for Splash or if it was just kill Splash, who cares what replaces it.
Sorry, but this seems unhealthily cynical. Obviously there was an honest if misguided effort. If the goal were solely destruction with no thought whatsoever given to the overlay, way less convoluted and expensive ways to get there existed. Instead, much (questionable) thought was put into how to create an attraction that eschewed re-hashing the plot of the film in favor of creating something that was at least tangentially related to all three lands in which it might ultimately appear (Frontierland, New Orleans Square, Critter Country).
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but this seems unhealthily cynical. Obviously there was an honest if misguided effort. If the goal were solely destruction with no thought whatsoever given to the overlay, way less convoluted and expensive ways to get there existed. Instead, much (questionable) thought was put into how to create an attraction that eschewed re-hashing the plot of the film in favor of creating something that was at least tangentially related to all three lands in which it might ultimately appear (Frontierland, New Orleans Square, Critter Country).
From what I have heard and judging how it ended up, it was being designed for Disneyland, and it was then copy and pasted into Magic Kingdom's intentionally longer version which is why the
MK version has so much dead space. The Disneyland incarnation does fit its area better even if it's still not a great attraction.
 

Bocabear

Well-Known Member
I am still not sure whether TBA was an honest effort to try to create a new beloved attraction and worthy replacement for Splash or if it was just kill Splash, who cares what replaces it.
I honestly think they were trying to create something better...but It seems like there was no concrete vision...to the outsider anyway... The ride system is great and no matter what it will always be a solid attraction, but the story they were trying to tell is too convoluted and doesn't feel genuine to the source material it is based on...or believable in any way. A bit of a book report with a villain and all the characters from the film as we knew them would have been a better idea...Does anyone want a Beauty and the Beast ride where the Beast is already a prince and they are living in their castle reading books and planning dinner? Pinocchio is now a real boy and entering junior high? The problem is walking the characters down the timeline and imagining a future for them that doesn't necessarily feel genuine....or even necessary.
 

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