Universal Epic Universe (South Expansion Complex) - Now Open!

[celluloid]

Heat is common in Orlando - doesn't mean one can't ask for shade.

Yep. There are areas like that at all theme parks(and some are harsher for that like Sea World and down the road at Busch Gardens with the animal focus)
Epic's Celestial Park is certainly the hottest part of the park in most situation. Celestial Park is based largely on Helios, so the goals of the area being a sunny garden makes sense for that trade off. I get why people are not going to love it on hot and rainy days without obvious cover. But there are venues and stores to take cover in. There area also some umbrellas and more coming. This area features a lot of shaded counter service and amble restaurant pace for that reason.
It is also as pristine and features botanical garden like park qualities. and is a hub for fountain and night time entertainment as well as the designed views. That is not a flaw but preference and goal of the land.


That is not a sightline critique or the kind of flaws being discussed here.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Some, yes.

Which is what we're trying to do. I've also said a lot of very positive things about Epic, but some ITT are refusing to accept the criticisms that the park has sightline issues and Uni perhaps could have tried a little harder in that aspect.

Hilarious every time you state this. It is specifically what IOA was about. Entire TV specials on it. You know what it was named?

Things have as well as have not changed in the theme park industry.

This is why even Disney projects are not like that of old. Tastes and expectations change. You keep citing a few flaws. They are not egregious anymore than any other theme park opening. Sightlines are merely one type of flaw.


But it is also why the last parks to go by on opening were IOA and DCA. So 26 years ago to now, we go compare to IOA and DCA.

Since IOA opened and that TV special aired, a very big phenomenon has happened to the theme park industry, and that started with Hogsmeade, which led to the rise of single IP lands (since you're always pedantic I have to also mention that yes, I'm aware that single IP lands did in fact exist before Hogsmeade, but Hogsmeade is what made them the current industry trend where dining and shopping are also considered part of the immersion). Then we got Diagon Alley, which led to the current trend of single-IP lands that also give total immersion, which led to Epic Universe.

26 years ago, people did not have Diagon Alley, Pandora, Galaxy's Edge etc to compare new theme park areas to. Now they do. So, when taking that into consideration, plus the promise that Epic would be entirely lands that deliver on that caliber, plus again, an entire park built from a blank slate - yes, 100% yes, all four IP lands should have delivered to the level of Diagon, Galaxy's Edge, and Pandora. Them failing to do so with two of the lands means that they did not fully commit to the entire point of the park. This is a valid point of criticism, and parks that opened over a quarter of a century ago also having problems doesn't excuse the expectations that were set upon this park, now.

To me this is kind of like, okay, 25-30 years ago we had video games first entering the realm of being fully 3-dimensional. For about a decade following, there was a big learning curve and a lot of experimentation to work through what worked and didn't work with 3-dimensional gaming, and a lot of those early 3D video games from the N64 and PS1 are cumbersome and clunky now due because of our experience with the refined gaming experiences that have come since. So, while (for example) The Legend of Zelda - Ocarina of Time may have been groundbreaking and revolutionary for its time, if a game came out today that controlled the way it does, players would have a valid reason to complain.

So if 90% of Epic Universe is like a modern day AAA buttery smooth video game, but 10% of that AAA title's gaming experience randomly reverts back to the jank of decades ago, that would be reason to call attention to it.

 

[celluloid]

Which is what we're trying to do. I've also said a lot of very positive things about Epic, but some ITT are refusing to accept the criticisms that the park has sightline issues and Uni perhaps could have tried a little harder in that aspect.



Since IOA opened and that TV special aired, a very big phenomenon has happened to the theme park industry, and that started with Hogsmeade, which led to the rise of single IP lands (since you're always pedantic I have to also mention that yes, I'm aware that single IP lands did in fact exist before Hogsmeade, but Hogsmeade is what made them the current industry trend where dining and shopping are also considered part of the immersion). Then we got Diagon Alley, which led to the current trend of single-IP lands that also give total immersion, which led to Epic Universe.

26 years ago, people did not have Diagon Alley, Pandora, Galaxy's Edge etc to compare new theme park areas to. Now they do. So, when taking that into consideration, plus the promise that Epic would be entirely lands that deliver on that caliber, plus again, an entire park built from a blank slate - yes, 100% yes, all four IP lands should have delivered to the level of Diagon, Galaxy's Edge, and Pandora. Them failing to do so with two of the lands means that they did not fully commit to the entire point of the park. This is a valid point of criticism, and parks that opened over a quarter of a century ago also having problems doesn't excuse the expectations that were set upon this park, now.

You are stating the same things again. Also your first sentence does not change the fact you said Total immersion was never the goal of IOA. It was.

The fact is that not all lands are equal. Universal does not design every land to the scale of Hogsmeade, Super Nintendo Land, Diagon, Disney does not deign every land to the level of Pandora or Galaxy's Edge.
You forget another change that happened in audience taste. Thrill rides are more acceptable and theme with thrill being a dual focus rather than favoring one or the other. This is why Cosmic Rewind and Tron are a themed coaster more than dark ride, as is Hagrids.

As far as to the immersion rich lands, not all properties and budgets will call for it. That is reality, as much as we want everything to alway be their best and at the scale and budget.

Super Nintendo and Wizarding World Paris were always the anchors. They are the billion dollar succeses and franchise based situations.

HTDYD for many would not call for an entire land, and certainly not at the scale. Epic in this case went for it based on as much as they could get with resources. So the fact that it got one was immensely filled as it is, is incredible. It was never going to get the budget and attention Ministry did and as stoked as I am for Monsters, I knew the property is loosely based on an amalgamation of properties that are over 100 years old and do not sell the same way as the millions of butterbeer or wands.

This is true for WDW or Universal Orlando, or any other park. They won't devote the same resources to all attractions, venues and lands. The difference has been I am willing to state this is the entire industry. Not "Well this one alway does it better." And a bit innately, even guests understand this.

 

[James Alucobond]

Not all lands are equal. Universal does not design every land to the scale of Hogsmeade, Supernintenod Diagon, Disney does not deign every land to the level of Pandora or Galaxy's Edge.

Things not being of the same scale does not necessitate significant lapses in immersion. There are many cases in EU where simply adding some mature trees, building an additional partial wall, or cladding an extra side of a facade would have helped immensely.

 

[celluloid]

Things not being of the same scale does not necessitate significant lapses in immersion. There are many cases in EU where simply adding some mature trees, building an additional partial wall, or cladding an extra side of a facade would have helped immensely.

In the real world of design, it typically does. You trade things for others. Resources, even for corporations, are finite.

As stated, a corporation will pick and choose for the product. Plots are planned and have future purposes where planning mature trees was not a worthwhile option. Sometimes it is money, sometimes its another reason like space because they would rather have a park with more attractions and a few rough sight flaws vs near perfection and less rides and venues.
Mature taller trees would have hid Tron as well, but we all understand why Disney did not bother.
Why would you not give the same grace?
Neither are wrong, it is the business.

If your only excuse to all of this is "They just cheaped out" then you may be showing a bias against this and not any other great park design. This is what makes comparisons likely. It is obviously highly unfair.

 

[celluloid]

So if 90% of Epic Universe is like a modern day AAA buttery smooth video game, but 10% of that AAA title's gaming experience randomly reverts back to the jank of decades ago, that would be reason to call attention to it.

Minecraft does not act like any AAA game but has fun lore and is a huge success.
Many lower budget game are as fun as the titles and belong to the same studio. If you are trying to say EPIC has enough flaws that make it jank of decades ago, you are going to lose more of your audience trying to see your side.
So this comparison is very rough.

 

[Tom Morrow]

You are stating the same things again.

Because you're being dense to a degree that suggests there's something you stand to gain by defending Universal here, consistently pedantic, and handwaving every criticism with mostly "Universal kid gloves treatment" excuses, such as:

Not all lands are equal. Universal does not design every land to the scale of Hogsmeade, Supernintenod Diagon, Disney does not deign every land to the level of Pandora or Galaxy's Edge.

Sunset Boulevard isn't as immersive as Galaxy's Edge... yeah? It was never intended to be, but all four portal IP lands were intended to be because that is the entire point of the park!

You forget another change that happened in audience taste. Thrill rides are more acceptable and theme with thrill being a dual focus rather than favoring one or the other. This is why Cosmic Rewind and Tron are a themed coaster more than dark ride, as is Hagrids.

And yet nowhere on or around Cosmic Rewind or Tron do I see dumpsters as a guest. Yes, you can see the building.

As far as to the immersion rich lands, not all properties and budgets will call for it. That is reality, as much as we want everything to alway be their best and at the scale and budget.

Super Nintendo and Wizarding World Paris were always the anchors. They are the billion dollar succeses and franchise based situations.

Burke in most caes would never call for an entire land, and certainly not at the scale. So the fact that it got one was immensley filled as it is, is incredible. It was never going to get the budget and attention Ministry did and as stoked as I am for Monsters, I knew the property is loosely based on an amalgamation of properties that are over 100 years old and do not sell the same way as the millions of butterbeer or wands.

"When Disney doesn't live up to their potential, it's because they are dumb, but when Universal does it it's Smart Budgeting."

If it's really a budget issue then things can still be re-arranged so that immersion and thematic integrity are still kept to the highest possible degree within reason. I get that absolute 100% immersion is not possible anywhere, but that isn't what we're seeing here. Berk and Dark Universe have glaringly big sightline issues, bad enough that no reasonable person would see them and conclude that Universal tried to a reasonable degree to uphold the thematic integrity and immersion of the lands to the best of their ability.

 

[James Alucobond]

In the real world of design, it typically does. You trade things for others. Resources, even for corporations, are finite.

You will fundamentally design things differently if you think immersion is important. That is the point; they don't care about it as much as some think they should. If you don't have the funds to conceal an enormous box, build something that isn't an enormous box. If you don't have the funds to construct a berm, arrange the structures within the land to block the view instead.

Why would you not give the same grace?

I give neither grace, as I have pointed out multiple times but you selectively ignore.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Minecraft does not act like any AAA game but has fun lore and is a huge success.

Your ability to avoid the overall point and nitpick some pedantic thing with a rare example and present it as a "got'em!" moment is astounding. Yes, Minecraft exists. No, Minecraft is in no way representative of what people refer to as "modern video gaming".

Nor are simple indie video game titles. Yes, they are popular. But they cost a fraction of the price of a AAA title for a reason.

 

[Moth]

Your ability to avoid the overall point and nitpick some pedantic thing with a rare example and present it as a "got'em!" moment is astounding. Yes, Minecraft exists. No, Minecraft is in no way representative of what people refer to as "modern video gaming".

In fact, you can argue the reason why Minecraft is able to be singled out is because it defies "modern video gaming".

 

[celluloid]

"When Disney doesn't live up to their potential, it's because they are dumb, but when Universal does it it's Smart Budgeting."

If i

When did I say or how did I insinuate that Disney was dumb? If I even implied that I take it back, I am calling them closer to equal than people want to admit. There are hits and misses at both with sightlines, visible errors, placemaking oddities, entertainment goofs, and other random immersion breaks.

I am aware that both parks have lands and attractions with flaws for various reasons. Often these reasons are the same.

You are still not admitting that.



Toy Story Land could definitely have a land as detailed and complete as Galaxy's Edge, but we also are willing to understand why it is not Pandora or Galaxy's Edge. Toy Story Land has some of those rough spots. It did not call for Galaxy's Edge or Pandora's requirements. Not all lands will. Kind of like when you said some game cost a fraction of the production cost. So do lands!

It is not unlike the lands not Super Nintendo Land or Potter at Epic that were never designed to hit those same major marks. And then there are even lands in-between that are surprisingly rich for being older properties.

 

[celluloid]

Your ability to avoid the overall point and nitpick some pedantic thing with a rare example and present it as a "got'em!" moment is astounding. Yes, Minecraft exists. No, Minecraft is in no way representative of what people refer to as "modern video gaming" and you know it doesn't.

Nor are simple indie video game titles. Yes, they are popular. But they cost a fraction of the price of a AAA title for a reason.

It was one example. You know gamers don't all just play AAA video games, and you brought up the example. People enjoy things that are not AAA gaming all the time(part of being a AAA game is budget) and most game studios do not only produce AAA games for the same reason not every land at a theme park is going to be Galaxy's Edge or Diagon Alley.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Plots are planned and have future purposes where planning mature trees was not a worthwhile option.

Not in any meaningful way.

Mature taller trees would have hid Tron as well, but we all understand why Disney did not bother.
Why would you not give the same grace?

They would not have. Plenty of us criticized the poor placement and design of TRON. It was not afforded grace.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Things not being of the same scale does not necessitate significant lapses in immersion. There are many cases in EU where simply adding some mature trees, building an additional partial wall, or cladding an extra side of a facade would have helped immensely.

Yes! Many of the fixes would be pretty simple and that's why this whole discussion is kind of bonkers. So many excuses for what largely amounts to just wanting them to try slightly harder.

There's still over a month to go, so hopefully they can continue to address some of it. I can't keep circling this sightlines debate.

It was one example. You know gamers don't all just play AAA video games, and you brought up the example. People enjoy things that are not AAA gaming all the time(part of being a AAA game is budget) and most game studios do not only produce AAA games for the same reason not every land at a theme park is going to be Galaxy's Edge or Diagon Alley.

This is irrelevant though. Universal and Disney's parks are the "AAA" of theme parks. So a proper video game comparison is AAA titles of 25 years ago to AAA titles of today. Theme park enthusiasts also enjoy lower budget, lower tier theme parks, but know not to place the same expectations on them the same way gamers don't expect a $5 indie game to deliver as much as GTA 6.

 

[Andrew25]

For 2026, UOR is either doing Fan Fest (if successful at USF, can't see them not bringing it to Florida) or we get that rumored F&F replacement.

With USH's version of FF Finale getting a makeover, it's likely they can transform the USF version within a year.

 

[celluloid]

This is irrelevant though. Universal and Disney's parks are the "AAA" of theme parks. So a proper video game comparison is AAA titles of 25 years ago to AAA titles of today. Theme park enthusiasts also enjoy lower budget, lower tier theme parks, but know not to place the same expectations on them the same way gamers don't expect a $5 indie game to deliver as much as GTA 6.

If you want this analogy to work better:
They are the AAA Producers(developer). They produce a variety of attractions(games) in their theme park (studio developer) catalogue.
There are many inbetween.

Burke is like Five Nights' at Freddy's. It is going to get trashed on for not really doing anything unique and having a few blights, but the kids and fans are loving and spending time on it.

 

[lazyboy97o]

For 2026, UOR is either doing Fan Fest (if successful at USF, can't see them not bringing it to Florida) or we get that rumored F&F replacement.

With USH's version of FF Finale getting a makeover, it's likely they can transform the USF version within a year.

Universal Studios Florida would not be served well by retaining a standalone portion of the tram tour. Even more so one that has been rushed.

 

[TalkingHead]

Just wait until Universal botches the park ops this summer. The paragraphs of Dis v. Uni argumentation will be flowing as far as the eye can see.

 

[DarkMetroid567]

0 Days since Last Accident

 

[Andrew C]

Yes! Many of the fixes would be pretty simple and that's why this whole discussion is kind of bonkers. So many excuses for what largely amounts to just wanting them to try slightly harder.

You’re assuming they had the budget to fix the issues you have called out, without cutting back on something else.