sshindel's Epcot Manifesto

[sshindel]

I think the descending portion of Spaceship Earth is a perfect metaphor for what's wrong with WDW in general. Everything is now for the children. The powers that be are so terrified of any child being bored (a natural part of growing up) that they constantly have to throw in toys, something for the hands. Instead of letting a ride wash over you, and maybe even go over your head intellectually, inviting you to return later, it's instant gratification...here's something to play with...here's your goody bag...thanks parents, kindly step this way towards the gift shop.

And the thing is it didn't have to do this. I was 7 when I first visited Epcot. I do not pretend to remember any details of that trip, but I do know that I loved it from my first trip.
I was the age of my oldest child when I first visited and loved the park as it was, and when I take her now she just does not have the same feelings. She loves science and learning, and still she really doesn't care if we go to Epcot or not.
Kids can enjoy things that are not written like a Disney Junior show. Better yet, as they grow it gives them an experience that changes as they get older and really start to understand the things the attractions are saying. And maybe it will inspire some to explore some of the topics more and lead them down a path of actually trying to make the world a better place.

Oh, this reminds me, I wrote something once about the idea that Epcot has to be dumbed down so the masses love it. I'll have to find that and put it in here.

 

[englanddg]

Holy. Crap.

I'm making a note to read through this all during some downtime at work this week. Is this where your hair went? You pulled it all out writing this?

He shaved it for charity. (not kidding)

 

[EnergyKing]

And the thing is it didn't have to do this. I was 7 when I first visited Epcot. I do not pretend to remember any details of that trip, but I do know that I loved it from my first trip.
I was the age of my oldest child when I first visited and loved the park as it was, and when I take her now she just does not have the same feelings. She loves science and learning, and still she really doesn't care if we go to Epcot or not.
Kids can enjoy things that are not written like a Disney Junior show. Better yet, as they grow it gives them an experience that changes as they get older and really start to understand the things the attractions are saying. And maybe it will inspire some to explore some of the topics more and lead them down a path of actually trying to make the world a better place.

Oh, this reminds me, I wrote something once about the idea that Epcot has to be dumbed down so the masses love it. I'll have to find that and put it in here.

I also loved it from a very young age. Much like MK it took me somewhere else. I was immersed. These days, I enjoy the memories, and then I enjoy the food and booze. You know something's wrong when finding the kiosk that serves cronuts is priority number one.

 

[sshindel]

Holy. Crap.

I'm making a note to read through this all during some downtime at work this week. Is this where your hair went? You pulled it all out writing this?

It might have added more grey to the remaining hair, that is for sure!

I do St Baldricks every year raising money for pediatric cancer research. This year was just under $1200 total, but the event I attended on the north side of Chicago raised over $105,000 total.

Please take your time reading. It's a LOT OF WORDS. I appreciate anyone who reads any of it, and appreciate any conversation on the topic as well!

 

[sshindel]

I also loved it from a very young age. Much like MK it took me somewhere else. I was immersed. These days, I enjoy the memories, and then I enjoy the food and booze. You know something's wrong when finding the kiosk that serves cronuts is priority number one.

The rides these days just seem like more people treat them as something to do before heading into the real thing they came for.

 

[englanddg]

The rides these days just seem like more people treat them as something to do before heading into the real thing they came for.

EPCOT Center impacted me far more than a theme park exec would realize.

Specifically...this ride.



It may be edutainment, but there's nothing wrong with that. For those who already know it, it's encouraging to see it talked about. For those (as me as a child) who did not know about the concepts being discussed, the story made STEM seem extremely interesting, and important.

It was even more poignant because of what the Disney Company did with worthless Florida Swampland...

Not "nerdy" and a "plot point" (yeah, Back to the Future is "sci fi", but it's full of science for plot convenience, not real science...EPCOT went beyond that.

I'll stop before I go off on my own rant about how they've destroyed Futureworld.

 

[sshindel]

This is something cut out of a conversation I had via PM, and it's something I forgot to cut and paste into any version of my manifesto.



Does EPCOT really have to be a park for everyone?

I think of way that entertainment has been trending over the past decade or so. The "Niche-ification" of entertainment is a pretty interesting concept. The way that there are fewer and fewer "rock stars" or huge pop acts, as more and more the music world has splintered into many smaller and smaller genres of music. Before you had Rock, Country, Hip Hop, and that made up a swath of the landscape of music. Now, with the internet, I can discover that I am really into Americana, Roots, Alt-Country, and Progressive Bluegrass. TV Shows in the subscription service model do not need to do massive Nielsen ratings if it can find a loyal audience that forms an emotional connection to the material and becomes active with the series in some way. Look at the continued existence of Community. The massive numbers of people who subscribe (or steal) HBO for Game of Thrones, a niche show if there ever was one. TV is shifting. No longer does something have to be a massive, broad comedy like Two and a Half Men to have cultural importance.

Does EPCOT really have to be a park that appeals to everyone?

Now, I know the real answer here is yes. Disney is a business, and the more people visiting, spending, etc, the more their stock prices rise. This is where my inner Spirit Thread comes out a bit I guess. Disney used to be about more than that. They did not always take the road that was easiest/cheapest/most-appealing. They built the park that we loved not because they really thought that a ton of 15 minute dark rides about the history of communications was going to be the thing that attracted everyone. They built that park with more than attendence numbers in mind.

Still, the part of me that likes to turn things over in my head argues with myself a little, and not in the most expected of ways. Part of me will argue that "Well, if the Imagineers really did their jobs right, they could have an amazing, educational, yet highly entertaining attraction/pavilion that would in fact appeal to the masses". The other part of me then argues "I don't know, there are people who just seem to be anti-learning, but do they really matter? Does Disney really, truly need to care about this group of the population?"

The parks today are so much more than they were in the first days of Epcot. Think about it. From 1971 - 1982, Walt Disney World was a huge resort, with hotels, golf, recreation, and one theme park. When Epcot was built, they made a massive capital investment in adding this park to really expand what Walt Disney World was. It was now a destination with two parks, and could be the entire destination for your vacation, not just a day or two in a larger one. Today, Walt Disney World has so much more. Water Parks, an insane number of resort hotels, 4 parks, shopping/dining. Epcot is a smaller piece of a larger puzzle now.

So, what if they focused the park once again on the edu-tainment aspects that they decided needed to be removed or modernized to fight the "Epcot is Boring" mantra in the 90s. If they made quality attractions, would the population really stay away? They do not now, and the Future World section of the park feels like an empty void, something you do in passing on your way to the first drink in Epcot.

And if a certain percentage of the population did in fact decide to ignore Epcot, but a smaller subset of the population had a major emotional tie to it, which leads to all sorts of things like guest spending/loyalty. If we disenfranchise 10 under-educated guests, but we catch 1 child and encourage them to develop a love for STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) or world culture, isn't that a trade off that is worth it? Not only is that child likely to grow up to do something valuable for society, you've also now formed a major emotional tie with that child which can pay off over a lifetime. That child will likely return, that child will likely invest more of his vacation dollars on spending within the park itself, that child will likely bring his family in the future and try and instill the same affection.

What if Disney spends the next few years building up Animal Kingdom and Hollywood Studios to bring in more guests, or spread some of them out from the massively overcrowded Magic Kingdom. Then, they announce that in time for Epcot's 40th anniversary in 2022, they are going to completly reinvent Epcot, and reinvest in the mission that once made the park stand out from all other theme parks in the world. They have 3 parks that absorb guests at a larger rate, so if Epcot numbers tick down, it doesn't impact them as much. And in new Epcot, you are focused on building up more of a niche audience. One who may be smaller, but with whom the emotional ties are far stronger, thus guest spending is higher. "Brand loyalty" is such a buzz word, but why does Disney need brand loyalty to be all encompassing? Can't Epcot have it's own brand loyal customer base?

Anyway, my question again is, is this just a pipe dream (crack pipe maybe)? Are we gone from the days when Disney can do something for the greater good that might pose a potential downturn in attendance at their park?

 

[sshindel]

I'll stop before I go off on my own rant about how they've destroyed Futureworld.

Do it...

Come to the Dark Side...

 

[englanddg]

Do it...

Come to the Dark Side...

Perhaps I will...

When I touched my Floridian Annual Pass as a kid...I saw...this place...

Someplace...amazing.

And I felt like anything was possible.

And then it was gone. <watch the preview to get the reference...wink>

 

[FigmentJedi]

Love the Pale Blue Dot in SSE descent idea a few pages back, but there's been something else on my mind as far as an update goes. When that Ray Bradbury script was released online a while back, his whole concept of the narrator as a being called "Universal Man" (meant to be a voice of all of humanity past, present and future) got me thinking that instead of just continuing the celebrity narrator trend, use it as a means of bringing another Epcot character back: The Sage of Time. Though he was initially created for the Millennium and was deemed expendable as a result, his role as a gentle guide representing the past and the future and spreading goodwill would still make him useful for Epcot's goals. Some plans for the Millennium Celebration apparently even called for an animatronic version of the Sage to greet guests coming into the park. Combine that with some Tapestry-influenced Illuminations replacement using the World of Color tech and he could basically bookend a day at Epcot.

Could turn the load area into some kinda citadel for the Sage with some design influence of the drums and the Sage's alchemy stuff. Always felt like the blue lights and grey walls were kinda generic.
And I think the Earth part of SSE's descent could play pretty well with an arrangement of that "Reach for the Stars" segment of the old Tapestry music and maybe even work with the Sagan speech.

 

[sshindel]

Love the Pale Blue Dot in SSE descent idea a few pages back, but there's been something else on my mind as far as an update goes. When that Ray Bradbury script was released online a while back, his whole concept of the narrator as a being called "Universal Man" (meant to be a voice of all of humanity past, present and future) got me thinking that instead of just continuing the celebrity narrator trend, use it as a means of bringing another Epcot character back: The Sage of Time. Though he was initially created for the Millennium and was deemed expendable as a result, his role as a gentle guide representing the past and the future and spreading goodwill would still make him useful for Epcot's goals. Some plans for the Millennium Celebration apparently even called for an animatronic version of the Sage to greet guests coming into the park. Combine that with some Tapestry-influenced Illuminations replacement using the World of Color tech and he could basically bookend a day at Epcot.

Could turn the load area into some kinda citadel for the Sage with some design influence of the drums and the Sage's alchemy stuff. Always felt like the blue lights and grey walls were kinda generic.
And I think the Earth part of SSE's descent could play pretty well with an arrangement of that "Reach for the Stars" segment of the old Tapestry music and maybe even work with the Sagan speech.

I honestly need to read up a little on this. The millennium was a time I was away from WDW for a while, and don't honestly know if I ever saw Tapestry of Nations. Looks like I've got some learning to do. It does sound intriguing though!

 

[englanddg]

I honestly need to read up a little on this. The millennium was a time I was away from WDW for a while, and don't honestly know if I ever saw Tapestry of Nations. Looks like I've got some learning to do. It does sound intriguing though!

 

[Master Yoda]

I was just going over this again and think how cheap this likely could get done. The new Cosmos series I think even did most of the work for us. We just need a licensing fee and maybe some screen technology.


I've listened to it again 2 times in a row and get chills every time.

I listen to that speech several times a year. It provides that occasional, much needed dose of perspective.

 

[rkleinlein]

As I scroll through all the pictures on this six page post I am struck by two things.

1. For a place that is supposedly devoted to tomorrow, the architecture of Epcot pales in comparison cutting edge architecture of today. Anybody who has been to any major city in the world has seen architecture that far surpasses Epcot. Even more disappointing/maddening is that Epcot also pales in comparison cutting edge architecture of YESTERDAY. Some of the building of the 1964 World's Fair and some of the models for Future World are more interesting, more imaginative, more "futuristic" than what was actually built. The only building that was ever visionary was Spaceship Earth. The Land interior has the look and charm of a shopping mall food court. It was humdrum in 1990. It's embarrassing now. And of course the very prominent and conspicuous abandoned buildings recall an abandoned 1980s shopping mall--another familiar sight. If there is ever a real revamp of Future World let's hope Disney realizes that their own imagineers have not been up to the task and hire some real architects.

2. Seeing the pics of the original attractions (World of Motion, Imagination, Living Seas) I was reminded how excited I was to see them when I was a kid. More importantly, I realized my own kids would LOVE those defunct attractions right now. Instead my kids, nine and six, thought Imagination was lame. And they were right. Same with the current version of Living Seas, and even Test Track (which I think is the most overrated attraction in all four parks).

There's something very wrong and very sad when the ideas of people writing in this forum and the ideas from 50 years ago seem more inspiring and exciting than what Epcot has devolved into. The more I think about it the more it boggles the mind. Every attraction in Epcot elicits either a "What were they thinking?" (Imagination, etc.) or a "How hard would this be to update a bit?" (all the country movies, Energy, etc.)

 

[sshindel]

As I scroll through all the pictures on this six page post I am struck by two things.

1. For a place that is supposedly devoted to tomorrow, the architecture of Epcot pales in comparison cutting edge architecture of today. Anybody who has been to any major city in the world has seen architecture that far surpasses Epcot. Even more disappointing/maddening is that Epcot also pales in comparison cutting edge architecture of YESTERDAY. Some of the building of the 1964 World's Fair and some of the models for Future World are more interesting, more imaginative, more "futuristic" than what was actually built. The only building that was ever visionary was Spaceship Earth. The Land interior has the look and charm of a shopping mall food court. It was humdrum in 1990. It's embarrassing now. And of course the very prominent and conspicuous abandoned buildings recall an abandoned 1980s shopping mall--another familiar sight. If there is ever a real revamp of Future World let's hope Disney realizes that their own imagineers have not been up to the task and hire some real architects.

2. Seeing the pics of the original attractions (World of Motion, Imagination, Living Seas) I was reminded how excited I was to see them when I was a kid. More importantly, I realized my own kids would LOVE those defunct attractions right now. Instead my kids, nine and six, thought Imagination was lame. And they were right. Same with the current version of Living Seas, and even Test Track (which I think is the most overrated attraction in all four parks).

There's something very wrong and very sad when the ideas of people writing in this forum and the ideas from 50 years ago seem more inspiring and exciting than what Epcot has devolved into. The more I think about it the more it boggles the mind. Every attraction in Epcot elicits either a "What were they thinking?" (Imagination, etc.) or a "How hard would this be to update a bit?" (all the country movies, Energy, etc.)

I agree on both points. Point one is a big reason why I wanted to really do something to the outsides of the pavilions without really having to knock them down and build new buildings. I mean, they seemed to have no problems doing it for Horizons, but honestly if they chose a focus, my example was green architecture but I know there are others that don't involve painting weird colored stripes on the buildings, I really think the structure of the buildings could be made "futuristic" again.
On point two, it's incredible to me that they went the route they did with the redo of Epcot. I can get myself in their headspace to a certain degree and see why they green lit a few more non-dark rides. I can't figure out how they missed the mark so badly on some of them.

 

[englanddg]

I agree on both points. Point one is a big reason why I wanted to really do something to the outsides of the pavilions without really having to knock them down and build new buildings. I mean, they seemed to have no problems doing it for Horizons, but honestly if they chose a focus, my example was green architecture but I know there are others that don't involve painting weird colored stripes on the buildings, I really think the structure of the buildings could be made "futuristic" again.
On point two, it's incredible to me that they went the route they did with the redo of Epcot. I can get myself in their headspace to a certain degree and see why they green lit a few more non-dark rides. I can't figure out how they missed the mark so badly on some of them.

The same reason that Frozen is going into Norway, in my opinion.

Popular characters and "exciting" rides in a park that they see as outdated and no longer culturally relevant.

It's been hashed out many times before on disney forums, but my standpoint is that they are, as you termed, missing the mark. There IS a market for a positive message and STEM related topics. It's just that, imho, they are going to the wrong people to craft and sell the message.

Bill Nye makes sense for any topic, really, but I think a larger role in Energy (with less Ellen, nothing against Ellen, she's a sharp wit, just an odd fit for THAT ride, but make it more like one of Bill's shows, not a goofball pseudo-comedy...not that it can't or shouldn't have comedy, but at least lets not have it be so ham handed).

Neil Degrasse Tyson for Spaceship Earth.

Michio Kaku for Innoventions (as he's a physicist, but he's been known to do big think topics that range all over the place).

Bring in people who are passionate about the topics and let them not only consult, but design the attractions with you. Edutainment isn't "dead"...it's just not being approached properly.

Bring in exciting and new sponsors instead of the tired industrial bohemouths of the past. Disney makes enough as a theme park, it doesn't need to rely as heavily on sponsorship as they used to.

Bring in Tesla, Sony, Samsung, SpaceX, Virgin...list goes on. Companies that are pushing the boundries of technology. Heck, it's not all about secrecy...the stuff they show off at TED and CES is all available to the public (and their competitors) and is still amazing. Samsungs flexible phones, for example...

What they really need to do is promote @sshindel to President of EPCOT, and then we'll see some changes!

(goes off to change.org to start a petition)

 

[WendyGirl1979]

I've thoroughly enjoyed your look at Epcot and how it can be saved with a little forethought. No, we can't return to Epcot Center of 198whatever but there could be a better one to come!
I especially agree that Imagination could be restored to the 1980's version and be just fine. While Horizons is my favorite defunct WDW exhibit, you can't go back there without so many, many cans of worms. Imagination just needs a turntable that'll keep up with it.

 

[sshindel]

The same reason that Frozen is going into Norway, in my opinion.

Popular characters and "exciting" rides in a park that they see as outdated and no longer culturally relevant.

It's been hashed out many times before on disney forums, but my standpoint is that they are, as you termed, missing the mark. There IS a market for a positive message and STEM related topics. It's just that, imho, they are going to the wrong people to craft and sell the message.

Bill Nye makes sense for any topic, really, but I think a larger role in Energy (with less Ellen, nothing against Ellen, she's a sharp wit, just an odd fit for THAT ride, but make it more like one of Bill's shows, not a goofball pseudo-comedy...not that it can't or shouldn't have comedy, but at least lets not have it be so ham handed).

Neil Degrasse Tyson for Spaceship Earth.

Michio Kaku for Innoventions (as he's a physicist, but he's been known to do big think topics that range all over the place).

Bring in people who are passionate about the topics and let them not only consult, but design the attractions with you. Edutainment isn't "dead"...it's just not being approached properly.

Bring in exciting and new sponsors instead of the tired industrial bohemouths of the past. Disney makes enough as a theme park, it doesn't need to rely as heavily on sponsorship as they used to.

Bring in Tesla, Sony, Samsung, SpaceX, Virgin...list goes on. Companies that are pushing the boundries of technology. Heck, it's not all about secrecy...the stuff they show off at TED and CES is all available to the public (and their competitors) and is still amazing. Samsungs flexible phones, for example...

What they really need to do is promote @sshindel to President of EPCOT, and then we'll see some changes!

(goes off to change.org to start a petition)

I'd love to see SpaceX and NDT get a swing at improving the space pavilion.
I think you said it right. Passionate people. That is the key.

 

[sshindel]

I've thoroughly enjoyed your look at Epcot and how it can be saved with a little forethought. No, we can't return to Epcot Center of 198whatever but there could be a better one to come!
I especially agree that Imagination could be restored to the 1980's version and be just fine. While Horizons is my favorite defunct WDW exhibit, you can't go back there without so many, many cans of worms. Imagination just needs a turntable that'll keep up with it.

Thank you!
It's obviously something I'm passionate about.
And you are right, we don't need the Epcot of the 80s back. We just need a park that has the same feel, energy, enthusiasm, excitement, wonder that the park brought forth.

 

[FigmentJedi]

So I just found this via some Tumblr post, the SeaOrbiter, a floating mobile ocean research base being built by the French.
http://seaorbiter.com/#

Would be a hell of a way to rejuvenate The Living Seas without Nemo