ChrisFL
Premium Member
For now...unless they do a lot more to the land area as rumored.
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News Splash Mountain retheme to Princess and the Frog - Tiana's Bayou Adventure
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
For now...unless they do a lot more to the land area as rumored.
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
How are they measuring financial success though? They have the data to know who is watching what and how many times, so they know how many unique subscribers are watching Moana. So that can help. But there isn’t a simple formula like before.Tens of millions of people are giving Disney close to $150 a year to watch those movies over and over again for "free."
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
No one is disapproving of the IP based on its financial success. That's usually something Disney corporate does, which is exactly the thing people are noticing and pointing out as weird. Disney over the past several decades have become extremely unforgiving with movies that underperform or bomb. And they won't be given the same second and third chances with theatrical re-releases and home video sales that Disney used to allow. While I pointed out that PATF DID in fact make them money, it failed to meet DISNEY'S expectations and was considered a "failure". Such a failure that it is blamed for killing off an entire artistic medium.
PATF was still considered a failure up until 2019-2020 when Disney abruptly changed their tune on the film and began pushing it again. This reassessment of the value of the IP is not the sort of treatment most other "failed" movies would receive in this day and age. That is what people have been pointing out here. Out of social necessity and an absense of any other options, they made an exception.
yensidtlaw1969
Well-Known Member
I was referring specifically to that posters suggestion that WDW's Frontierland was based around "The Four Corners", which is the region where Arizona, Utah, Colorado and New Mexico all meet. Splash Mountain was very certainly not themed to any of those.
However, it should be noted that Disneyland's Frontierland and WDW's are not designed and themed the same way - Frontierland as a concept is not automatically exclusionary to tales of the South or even the East, but WDW's Frontierland was constructed very carefully to chart a Western progression with its structures and landmarks.
It is true that the buildings and attractions on the The Rivers of America waterfront were designed from opening day to reflect the geographical thrust of the nation - Liberty Square mostly represented the original Colonies along the East Coast, with Frontierland representing the Western states, both divided by "The Little Mississippi" waterway. Starting in the Northeast corner and working your way down and around, The Haunted Mansion represented Upstate New York, The Nantucket Harbor House (Now Columbia) is obvious, The Hall of Presidents Philadelphia, Liberty Tree Tavern Williamsburg, then starting to move westward with The Diamond Horseshoe representing St. Louis, the "Gateway to the West".
Notably, Liberty Square was elevated a good bit above River Level, so that as you stood in the Square proper the view of the Riverboat was almost completely concealed by the high grade and the Riverboat Station building - it was known the Riverboat was most appropriately seen in Frontierland, despite the operational necessity that it pass Liberty Square. That's why the Landing was placed in LS, to keep the vista open to see it once you've entered Frontierland. That's a strong bit of intentional staging that doesn't get much mention, done in support of the desired geographical journey for the guests.
From there you crossed from East over The Little Mississippi to West into Frontierland, with all the opening day placemaking and architecture becoming decidedly and exclusively Western. The Frontierland entrance stockade, the Frontierland Shootin' Arcade, and Frontier Mercantile all set the early tones for Western expansion, where buildings were starting to be built from both logs and stone, suggesting both the resources as settlers traveled west, but also suggesting growing and intentional permanence. Continuing west the buildings start to become more expansive and elaborate in their design, their architecture and materials both further affirming the settling of the Western territories.
The Country Bear Jamboree has always been described to me as representing the great cabins of the Colorado Rockies, so I'm not totally sure where the idea of it representing Tennessee comes from (There is Tennessee Bear in the show, of course, and the new show has been described as recalling Nashville's Grand Ole Opry, but that's the new show, not the original - and not the architecture). The General Store and Prairie Outpost are fully Western constructions down to the wooden Native American out front.
The Mile Long Bar literally said Saloon above it; Hard to get more explicity Western than that. Next down the line, similary, is Pecos Bills Cafe (Mile Long Bar was absorbed as part of the Pecos Bill expansion in the 90's), which is similarly self explanitory. Both the inside and outsides of all the buildings on this strip supported distinct and committed Western stylings. At one end of the building is the Town Hall facade, the other end is constructed from Adobe Brick. The interior was and is full of different shades of Western, but they are all Western.
I've heard of the original Frontierland Train Station being designed to look "Californian", but admittedly the building was so relatively simple it's hard to see any real sign of that influence, so I don't particularly assert that. I'd describe it as less explicitly styled than anything else in the land, though not incongruous with the Western town they built.
From there the stage was set for expansion further north - The original plans for Frontierland accounted for Western River Expedition and Thunder Mesa, which of course never came to pass. The space went to Big Thunder, but that does still fulfill the intended idea of representing Monument Valley, bordering Utah and Arizona.
Tom Sawyer Island was itself not an opening day attraction, opening instead in 1973, but because of its existence at Disneyland I'd imagine it was given consideration from the outset. Tom Sawyer takes place in Missouri, slightly West of St. Louis, so given the Island's placement encircled by the Riverfront sections of Frontierland and Liberty Square it makes decent sense. I'll give you that the Dock is not perfectly placed where it is over by Big Thunder, though the building is hardly more than a humble shack.
I'll also give you that the Attraction interiors do, of course, stretch at times beyond the unity of their exteriors. It is the Magic Kingdom after all. Hence the Talking Bears, Ghosts, and perhaps most ghastly, contemporary Presidents who make appearances within. But the Architectural continuum of the facades from Liberty Square through Frontierland was perhaps the most intricate piece of early Walt Disney World placemaking, creating a conscious and overarching thematic passage that sustained integrity across the two lands adjoined around the Rivers of America. Eastern properties east of the Mississipi, Western west of it, and they really didn't quiver on the matter.
I don't buy the idea that Splash's placement is "not remotely as big of a problem as Tiana's placement/setting". I'd say that they are pretty equally inappropriate, given the effort that went into developing the thematic landscape of WDW's Frontierland and how conflicting both are with that. But I would also say the damage was most certainly done by Splash 32 years ago, not by Tiana's today. At this point the seal has already been thoroughly broken. Which doesn't mean it wouldn't be ideal for them to repair that, just that it doesn't make sense to blame the successor to what broke it instead of what actually broke it.
That is not correct. The theatrical run was a looser.
It grossed $271M world wide at the box office. It’s production budget minus marketing was $105M. Conservatively estimating a marketing budget of $50M, they would have need $310M world wide just to break even.
Likely the marketing budget was closer to $75M but let’s err on giving Disney benefit of a lower marketing spend.
EPCOT-O.G.
Well-Known Member
It also killed live action animation. Some here have also pointed out home video sales, but again, they split those with retailers.
When this happened, it had a very limited home video window, before everything shifted to PVOD. At best that can bring in $10-$15M. Still not enough to make it profitable. Even with PVOD or DTC it wasn’t a driver of subscriber growth so it had minimal impact. Also because D+ was in house the profit associated with licensing it was like taking money from the left pocket and putting it in the right pocket.
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
The 2011 Winnie the Pooh film was probably more responsible for doing that than PATF. Though I don't think it's fair to say anything killed off hand drawn outside of corporate desire not to make them anymore. The entire industry was trending towards CGI unfortunately, and Disney execs were probably pleased with the opportunity to consolidate a lot of their tools and artists with what Pixar was using.
Disney's previous three in-house non Pixar CGI animated films (Chicken Little, Meet the Robinsons and Bolt) did a lot worse than PATF. And yet they didn't kill off CGI as a result of those failures.
But whether PATF turned a profit or not (and again I believe the math shows that it did, albeit not Lion King numbers), no one's opinion but Disney's matters in this context. The fact is that THEY considered it a failure, and it was considered as such until only the past couple of years. Where the IP was revisited not because of its success (or a resurgence in its success even), but because of a lack of other options for their current needs.
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
I’d counter that Tangled is also undergoing the same current glow up.
I don’t think we can discount simply the sheer Princess branding. That is the special sauce.
Circumstances are leading to it batting above its weight (similar to Tron) and getting an E-ticket. But film popularity has never really seemed to drive attraction choices and rather luck, mixed with timing. We still lack a Lion King Ride, but they’ve never been shy with character/franchise representation.
At the end of the day Tiana is mildly batting above her weight, but is not the top dog. Park representation wise, she’s still several steps below the Frozen girls, Snow White, Belle, Ariel, sort of Cinderella/Aurora and Moana in short order. Maybe even Jasmine fleet and park wide (albeit she’s not the lead). Mulan and Merida are a bit under represented worldwide and Raya is too new. Pochahantas is getting downplayed In the opposite direction.
Rich Brownn
Well-Known Member
Sleeping Beauty bombed so bad that Disney actually reported a loss for the company for the year. And now....
Rich Brownn
Well-Known Member
Never judge the quality and popularity of a film by its box-office alone. If that were true the best picture of 1955 would not have been "Oklahoma!" or any other studio film. It would be "Cinerama Holiday" LOL
Gusey
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say that PaTF has been a failure for Disney and that they've now started to use the film in the last couple of years. This is a list of everything PaTF offering at the Disney Resorts:
- 2011 - 2013: Princess Tiana's Mardi Gras Celebration @ Disneyland
- 2011 - present: Disney's Believe on the Disney Dream and Disney Fantasy
- 2011 - present: Royal Guest Rooms : Disney's Port Orleans resorts
- 2012 - 2021: Sorcerer's of the Magic Kingdom
- 2013 - present: Fantasmic! at Hollywood Studios
- 2013 - 2020: Mickey and the Magical Map @ Disneyland
- 2014 - present: Festival of Fantasy parade @ Magic Kingdom
- 2015 - present: Mickey and the Wondrous Book @ Hong Kong Disneyland
- 2016 - present: Mickey's Magical Friendship Faire @ Magic Kingdom
- 2016 - present: Tiana's Place on the Disney Wonder
- 2020/2023 - present: Magic Happens parade @ Disneyland
- 2022 - The Bayou on the Disney Wish
- 2022 - Eudora's Chic Boutique @ Disneyland
- 2023 - Tiana's Palace @ Disneyland
- 2023 - Jollywood Nights @ Hollywood Studios
- 2024 - Tiana's Bayou Adventure @ Magic Kingdom & Disneyland
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gerarar
Premium Member
In WDW's Fantasmic!, Princess Tiana replaced Megara (technically replaced Mulan's spot on the front of the steamboat next to Belle/Beast while Mulan moved to the bottom row/side) in 2013, four years after the movie was released in 2009. The lineup of characters on the boat in the finale rarely ever gets changed at WDW (compared to DL), so this was kinda an important reshuffling from Disney.
Then when F! came back in 2022, they doubled down on the movie and added Prince Naveen next to Tiana at the front. They also added some easter eggs paying homage to Hercules and Megara (ex-characters on the steamboat) as a new projection during the new action sequence.
All this just to say that there was some data way back in 2013 to make Disney put Tiana in the finale and that guests would enjoy and recognize her among the dozens of characters on the boat.
Then when F! came back in 2022, they doubled down on the movie and added Prince Naveen next to Tiana at the front. They also added some easter eggs paying homage to Hercules and Megara (ex-characters on the steamboat) as a new projection during the new action sequence.
All this just to say that there was some data way back in 2013 to make Disney put Tiana in the finale and that guests would enjoy and recognize her among the dozens of characters on the boat.
gerarar
Premium Member
I would add..
2013 - present: appearance in Fantasmic! at WDW. Not exactly sure when she started in DL's but she appears there too (at least before the recent fire incident). Prince Naveen was added in 2022 at HS and also a regular in DL's.
2023 - entire segment with new song (cut from the original movie) in Disney Holidays at Hollywood show @ Jollywood Nights party at HS.
Disney Analyst
Well-Known Member
She also had a float in the Soundsational parade at Disneyland (2011-2019).
And
Tiana’s Showboat Jubilee at Disneyland and Magic Kingdom (2009)
Again, PatF seemed to have a net loss in theaters. But not a big one.
That was more than made up for in VCR/DVD sales.
In the end PatF had a net profit for Disney.
That was more than made up for in VCR/DVD sales.
In the end PatF had a net profit for Disney.
TeriofTerror
Well-Known Member
And more than a few movies that are considered "Disney Classics" weren't profitable in their original theatrical runs.
bmr1591
Well-Known Member
Disney was going to retheme Disneyland Splash, but WDW was going to escape the hit until 2020.
MagicHappens1971
Well-Known Member
While I know this was the original rumor, I find it hard to believe that Disney wouldn't have eventually rethemed Splash at WDW. Maybe (very small maybe) they would've chosen a different IP.
I think what happened was, an imagineer came up with the concept of retheming DL Splash with Tiana since her story takes place in New Orleans and their Splash is adjacent to New Orleans Square. Disney heard the idea and was like "wow this is a great idea, how do we make it fit in both parks?" And then we wound up with the story and attraction that is coming real soon.