Rapid Fill Mug Program Fails (at more ways than you might think)

dmatt87

Well-Known Member
How much is a WDW mug now? $18? And that's good for the duration of your stay. A large Coke at McDonald's is somewhere between $2-$3, right? And that's supposed to be for one-time use. I think the economics are close to the same assuming the level of theft is as great.
However McDonalds is producing those cups by the millions, so the cost is probable $0,002 per cup. Even raising that price by 1 cent would completely change the numbers in the book. Also, I'm sure the overhead is bigger in percentage at a fast food joint than at Disney.
 

Laketravis

Well-Known Member
However McDonalds is producing those cups by the millions, so the cost is probable $0,002 per cup. Even raising that price by 1 cent would completely change the numbers in the book. Also, I'm sure the overhead is bigger in percentage at a fast food joint than at Disney.

Agreed - the scale of self-serve beverage dispensers at fast food chain locations across the country probably dwarf that of the WDW Resorts. But then, wouldn't also the scale of "theft" which would then justify McDonald's incurring the cost of prevention in the same manner Disney chose to? My point is that if the reason for Disney was theft of product, it would be an even bigger reason for McDonald's. I'm not trying to say that nobody ever stole a fountain drink at WDW. I just don't think that practice was prevalent enough to force a corporate decision as extreme as RFID embedded cups and computer controlled beverage dispensers. Besides, that left a gaping hole with the non-carbonated beverages that have a higher per-serving cost and aren't protected by risk mitigating beverage cups.
 

deix15x8

Active Member
Agreed - the scale of self-serve beverage dispensers at fast food chain locations across the country probably dwarf that of the WDW Resorts. But then, wouldn't also the scale of "theft" which would then justify McDonald's incurring the cost of prevention in the same manner Disney chose to? My point is that if the reason for Disney was theft of product, it would be an even bigger reason for McDonald's. I'm not trying to say that nobody ever stole a fountain drink at WDW. I just don't think that practice was prevalent enough to force a corporate decision as extreme as RFID embedded cups and computer controlled beverage dispensers. Besides, that left a gaping hole with the non-carbonated beverages that have a higher per-serving cost and aren't protected by risk mitigating beverage cups.
I know it's often more fun to blame Disney than the guests around here, but the difference is the customer. With a fast food venue unlimited refills are part of the business, but sharing a soda is not acceptable. With the Disney program it's very similar, unlimited refills are acceptable and sharing is not. The difference is that with Disney people leave and return to fill again or even at a different resort. That's all part of the deal, but then people also leave and go home and return 6 months later to fill again which is not. I've never seen someone walk into a Burger King with a cup and fill it with soda before, but I remember when we used the program back in 2001 it was such common knowledge to bring it back that sites like this were suggesting it and even cast members selling the cups at the resorts would mention it to help make sales. The loss of a soda is not a big deal, just as it isn't for fast food venues either. The bigger loss was people returning for 2 or more subsequent trips without paying anything more. All of those sodas add up much quicker while also causing an increasing decrease in income overtime as reuse cups start competing with new cups. I'm sure at some people someone had to look at those numbers and realize that things were at the tipping point, and that's where paying to enforce the rules comes from.
Most annoying things are our own fault. Imagine how much cheaper tickets could be if their was no security threat and no one trying to cheat the ticket system. We'd all just have slips of plain papers, write the date on it, and walk in. If the honor system actually worked things would be so much different, but unfortunately that's not the kind of world we will ever have.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
If you ever had a mug that didn't work... you'd feel otherwise
If you had to deal with back to back bookings... you'd feel otherwise
If you ever had to get up and help your kids/grandma/other with getting the dispenser to do what you want.. you'd feel otherwise
If you were the type that wants more than one cup full at once... you'd feel otherwise
If you were the type that liked to mix/match or sample.. you'd feel otherwise
If you didn't understand english well.. you'd probably feel otherwise

It boils down to artificial constraints that are not really needed and impede what are normal, acceptable behaviors to the detriment of your customers. Even if a good percentage of customers never encounter those.

Nevermind the cost of the system, etc

^^^ THIS ^^^

No rational person is condoning the theft of soda. It's just that Disney chose the most Guest unfriendly method to solve a problem.
 

HauntedPirate

Park nostalgist
Premium Member
Problem: A small percentage of guests bringing back old refillable mugs and using them for various reasons, including "I don't want to pay $10/$12/$15/$18 for a new mug".

Solution: Lower the price on the refillable mugs to encourage more guests to buy one for each family member on each trip. Volume of mugs bought would/should make up for a lower price, not to mention repeat business, since guests would likely not be averse to purchasing a new mug on each trip because the cost would be lower/manageable.

DIS Solution: Raise prices. Spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, instituting the RapidFill program. "That'll show'em!"

:banghead:
 

dmatt87

Well-Known Member
Agreed - the scale of self-serve beverage dispensers at fast food chain locations across the country probably dwarf that of the WDW Resorts. But then, wouldn't also the scale of "theft" which would then justify McDonald's incurring the cost of prevention in the same manner Disney chose to? My point is that if the reason for Disney was theft of product, it would be an even bigger reason for McDonald's. I'm not trying to say that nobody ever stole a fountain drink at WDW. I just don't think that practice was prevalent enough to force a corporate decision as extreme as RFID embedded cups and computer controlled beverage dispensers. Besides, that left a gaping hole with the non-carbonated beverages that have a higher per-serving cost and aren't protected by risk mitigating beverage cups.
I honestly believe that Disney does it, at least in part, as a marketing ploy, to force people of doing something exclusive... but the system does have its fault, unfortunately for us!
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
So here is a slightly off topic question then. If we are checking in the 10th and checking out on the 18th, with a DDP that would be 8 days worth of meal points. Does the RFID for the cup turn off after we leave on the 18th, or at 11:59 on the 17th?

Your mileage may vary but from the times I've had mugs under this program they are activated for 14-21 days regardless
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Problem: A small percentage of guests bringing back old refillable mugs and using them for various reasons, including "I don't want to pay $10/$12/$15/$18 for a new mug".

Solution: Lower the price on the refillable mugs to encourage more guests to buy one for each family member on each trip. Volume of mugs bought would/should make up for a lower price, not to mention repeat business, since guests would likely not be averse to purchasing a new mug on each trip because the cost would be lower/manageable.

DIS Solution: Raise prices. Spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, instituting the RapidFill program. "That'll show'em!"

:banghead:

Additional idea - make the mugs collectible and lower price so they are bought as souvenirs as well
 

Laketravis

Well-Known Member
I know it's often more fun to blame Disney than the guests around here, but the difference is the customer.

I don't know if it's more fun to blame Disney or not, this isn't about blame but about the motivation behind limiting "unlimited" beverages. Limiting refills to the duration of your stay is one thing; limiting the time interval between refills is another. The customer may be different but I would like to think that's to Disney's advantage as I've seen people camped out in a Burger King (thanks for reminding me about that chain) taking advantage of anything not nailed down.

The difference is that with Disney people leave and return to fill again or even at a different resort. That's all part of the deal, but then people also leave and go home and return 6 months later to fill again which is not. I've never seen someone walk into a Burger King with a cup and fill it with soda before....

You may not have seen it and I can't say that I have either. But I've seen signs at some locations that state "Refills are for same day purchase only" so apparently the practice is not isolated to WDW resorts.

Most annoying things are our own fault. Imagine how much cheaper tickets could be if their was no security threat and no one trying to cheat the ticket system. We'd all just have slips of plain papers, write the date on it, and walk in. If the honor system actually worked things would be so much different, but unfortunately that's not the kind of world we will ever have.

Points to certainly ponder. But again, are the thousands of fast-food locations and hundreds of hotel lobbies that provide 24x7 unbridled access to beverage fountains immune from the defects of humanity? I don't believe they are, yet they've decided to swallow those incurred costs rather than do anything about it - like simply moving the equipment back behind the counter.
 
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jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
Most retail and F & B establishments that have multiple units (in other words corporate structure and not a Mom and Pop) have policies which discourage regular line staff from confronting thieves or shoplifters directly for many reasons: liability, danger, lack of experience...etc. There were articles on this a few years ago, but right now I am too lazy to look them up. Some of them use Security/Loss Prevention personnel if the places have them. Others call police and use video systems (and only if the amount stolen was worth the effort) but unless the places have security on duty, it is very rare that a regular staff person is encouraged to confront or detain someone under suspicion of stealing anything.

Thank you. This is what I was going to say. Every place that I have worked as has a policy that you do not confront these people. It is too unpredictable and companies do not want to be responsible if anything happens to you if they say to confront them. I don't know any place that tells you to confront shoplifters.
 

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
Once again the huge cuts Disney has made are affecting basic sanitation in food service areas. If my local mom-n-pop (literally) bakery can have a fly free display case why for the love of Pete cannot Disney do at least as well
No. You don't think that flies get into your local restaurants? It happens, usually it depends on the time of year. It's not like you can spray the food to keep the flies off of them. We have regular pest control come in and have other bug preventatives but we still get flies that come in when the door opens. There is NOTHING you can do about it. How long have you worked in a food establishment?
 

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
Wow. Yeah, that would definitely sway my view on the matter. What resort was that? I've never personally witnessed such abuse but the resorts I stay at are a small representation of the entire site.

Before the RFID, we saw this over and over every time we went to WDW. People would bring those big water thermoses and fill them up at the soda machine. This was at a bunch of different resorts. I can't even imagine how many gallons where stolen.
 

JTravis58

Member
One looked at me, knew he was doing something wrong, and before I even said anything (I wasn't planning on it anyway) told me to "STFU and mind your own business." Yeah. THAT is when I started getting in his face and chewing him out. I made him feel like a real piece of trash before he left. I know he felt that way by how small he was trying to make himself as he left. He just wanted everyone to stop staring at him with those looks. It was fabulous. I wasn't even going to say anything to the gutter trash in the first place until I got my button pushed.
Nobody likes a snitch, but I too would have gone all out on someone for telling me to "STFU and mind your own business" for just looking at them. As soon as that rude comment was made, you had every right to draw full attention to what he was doing.
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
Before the RFID, we saw this over and over every time we went to WDW. People would bring those big water thermoses and fill them up at the soda machine. This was at a bunch of different resorts. I can't even imagine how many gallons where stolen.

I've seen it as well in the resorts and at the few restaurants in the parks that serve fountain drinks. Thermoses, large sports bottles, etc.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Agreed - the scale of self-serve beverage dispensers at fast food chain locations across the country probably dwarf that of the WDW Resorts. But then, wouldn't also the scale of "theft" which would then justify McDonald's incurring the cost of prevention in the same manner Disney chose to? My point is that if the reason for Disney was theft of product, it would be an even bigger reason for McDonald's. I'm not trying to say that nobody ever stole a fountain drink at WDW. I just don't think that practice was prevalent enough to force a corporate decision as extreme as RFID embedded cups and computer controlled beverage dispensers. Besides, that left a gaping hole with the non-carbonated beverages that have a higher per-serving cost and aren't protected by risk mitigating beverage cups.
Again, McDonalds doesn't have a permanent supply of people staying at that store that come in and repeatedly use the same cup. They do allow for refills, but, since the clientele usually just go in, eat and leave, it is not an ongoing problem. However, that said, I have noticed that McDonalds has had to resort to putting up signs telling people that they cannot bring in a cup to fill at that self serve drink locations, so it is a problem for them as well. It is only valid for beverages purchased that day.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Nobody likes a snitch, but I too would have gone all out on someone for telling me to "STFU and mind your own business" for just looking at them. As soon as that rude comment was made, you had every right to draw full attention to what he was doing.
Please, save the nobody likes a snitch for middle school, as adults we are all responsible for maintaining a semblance of civilization in our society. The nobody likes a snitch thought process is directly responsible for a lot of our current problems.
 

JTravis58

Member
Please, save the nobody likes a snitch for middle school, as adults we are all responsible for maintaining a semblance of civilization in our society. The nobody likes a snitch thought process is directly responsible for a lot of our current problems.
Given the circumstances described, I would have been far less likely to raise a fuss over what cup the guest was using to refill. All of that would change as soon as he started using vulgar language toward me and my family. Doesn't make it any more right what he was doing using the mug.
 

Laketravis

Well-Known Member
Again, McDonalds doesn't have a permanent supply of people staying at that store that come in and repeatedly use the same cup. They do allow for refills, but, since the clientele usually just go in, eat and leave, it is not an ongoing problem. However, that said, I have noticed that McDonalds has had to resort to putting up signs telling people that they cannot bring in a cup to fill at that self serve drink locations, so it is a problem for them as well. It is only valid for beverages purchased that day.

So........it's not a problem but it's a problem? :)
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
And there are thousands of McDonald's (and Taco Bells, and Whataburgers, etc) that have the fountains out in the dining areas. Not all of them, but many of them across the country. Are they not susceptible to the same supposedly rampant level of "theft" that WDW resorts are? Why have those chains not adopted RFID and metered usage technology at the POS level? As sensitive as their sales and margins have been lately to slumps I'd think that area would be a prime target for revenue optimization.
Stealing soda from McDonalds isn't common because most people go there to eat not just for a drink. They are also not staying long vs hotel guests staying overnight. It would be inconvenient and just plain weird to drive to a McDonalds just to steal a cup of soda. The workers would also nail you if you didn't have a McD's cup and just walked in to fill it without buying anything. At WDW getting a drink is a quick and easy stop on your way back to your room. Take CR as an example. Hop off the monorail, stop at the Contempo Cafe just below the monorail station and grab a drink on your way back to your room. And it wasn't just guests staying at the hotels helping themselves. If you live locally or are staying off property, on your way back to your car take the resort monorail loop instead of the direct and get off at CR for a drink before continuing to TTC and your car. It's hot in FL most of the time and people get thirsty. Another common occurrence was people buying 1 drink cup and then sharing it amongst multiple people. In some cases pouring the soda into a separate personal cup or container and then refilling the Disney cup again and again. It most definitely was a problem.
 

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