Not so magical

[NelsonRD]

I have only been a member of this board for a short time, but I have noticed this is not a place for a debatable discussion. This is a place to complain, and get others to support your claims on how bad disney is today.

Defending any decision Disney makes on this board opens you for attack. There are many decisions made in the past I thought was just plain stupid and foolish, however, when described why the decision was made, I get the 'ah ha moment, now I get it, now I understand" - as poor as the decision seemed to me on the surface.

Unfortunately, this board is filled with the decision haters, thinking they can do better from their couch, without even trying to consider the other side, because as a guest we deserve the best no matter what.

Im surprised there is not a thread about Disney not providing an atmosphere of better weather when they were there last. How dare those corporate greedy evil Disney suits allow rain on my vacation.......

 

[Goofyernmost]

So how do we stop that guest from not following the rules? Do they even know the rules? Logistically I see the challenge. It is not as simple as 'tell them not to do it anymore', because they will.

Well, nothing in life that is unpleasant to do is ever simple, but, they do have rules of behavior that have been repeated over and over. A good start would be enforcing the rules like the once did. Go all the way back to Walt for a minute. He wanted a park that wasn't a human zoo. He wanted a place the was clean and respectable and a place where people could bring their families without fear that they would have to witness a scene.

It was just a few years ago where if people were taking flash pictures on PoTC, they would issue verbal warnings (in more then one language) and if it continued they would stop the ride until the person put their cameras away. Then they were greeted at the end of the ride by a group of management and everyone had a little sit down about how to act in the park. You didn't hear the F bombs constantly, if at all. It was just a more civilized, pleasant place to be.

They need to take control of their park again. They might be surprised at how nice it can be to run a business that wasn't always having some conflict to deal with and happy CM's to make everyone's experience a good one.

 

[Disvillain63]

I have taken my girls out of school for family time and vacation. I will tell you - the school schedule is more damaging to my girls education than the week I spend away with my family. Getting my girls back into school routine after Christmas break, Presidents break, Spring break, and Summer break is more of a challenge. And I did not even include snow days, holidays, and just plain, no school because of something days.

I am pretty confident for the next few years, I will be able to support my girls education by helping them with their assignments.

I work all year, and I get the flexibility to choose what weeks I take off. With that said, spending time when the parks are less crowded makes a world of difference for most of us. Even if that means I have to do a little addition and subtraction along the way.

Along this same line, I am a teacher and I have taken my own children out of school for a vacation. My children missed days in high school, while taking multiple AP classes. We did this because my DH has to pick his vacations in October of the previous year and by employment seniority. The school schedule for the following year is not published until March...5 to 6 mos. after he had to choose. We tried using previous calendars as a guide, but they were never the same.

When I have a parent approach me about a vacation and missing school, I adapt what I can for the child, and work with the child and parent when they return. I know my own children learned more on our family vacations, than one week of school...even if they had to learn to dodge an ECV or stroller...or learn that everyone does not think or do everything the same way.

 

[draybook]

Thanks for saying what many of us feel with regards to the scooters. Our last trip was a disaster between the scooters and the strollers. We were hit in the back of our legs with quite a few strollers and yelled at by people in scooters to "clear the way." We also got stuck behind countless double-strollers when we were trying desperately to get to the First Aid station for my daughter. We got dirty looks from a few people because we walked around the strollers. Hoping the new hub helps with this because it's really unsafe when the path is completely blocked by strollers and there is no way to get around.

Yeah, if you read my trip report from September of 2013, you'll see my bit about the time we got stuck in the pre-Wishes crowd around the hub and how I had someone behind me slamming into my heels with their stroller due to the foot traffic getting backed up. Finally, when we were at a stand still and they slammed into me again I turned around and raucously said, "I don't know if you're familiar with physics but we cannot occupy the same space at the same time, so please stop ramming into me". I felt better after that.

 

[flynnibus]

So how do we stop that guest from not following the rules? Do they even know the rules? Logistically I see the challenge. It is not as simple as 'tell them not to do it anymore', because they will.

Same way it's done just about everywhere...

Step 1 - you remind the guest of the rules and give them a warning (in this case.. you gentle remind them of the behavior expected and let them know repeated problems will lead to discipline)
Step 2 - When repeat behavior is an issue, you discipline them (ejecting them from the attraction line.. from the location.. or from the parks for the day)

In Disney's case, everyone has this convenient ticket (and MDE profile for repeat visitors) that makes it easy to associate people for repeat offenses.

You don't even have to have enforcement everywhere, all the time. Just like the Police and Traffic Enforcement, you can get the message across and get the worst offenders with enforcement at key locations at key times.

If Disney can staff dozens of extra locations for MM+ tech support for a year onward... why not use that 'surge' mentality to turn the tide of bad guest behavior with targeted enforcement at key attractions over a period of time.

The 'people that didn't know' and get busted once will adapt and will not need enforcement at every attraction/location to make a noticeable difference.

 

[flynnibus]

I have only been a member of this board for a short time, but I have noticed this is not a place for a debatable discussion. This is a place to complain, and get others to support your claims on how bad disney is today.

Defending any decision Disney makes on this board opens you for attack. There are many decisions made in the past I thought was just plain stupid and foolish, however, when described why the decision was made, I get the 'ah ha moment, now I get it, now I understand" - as poor as the decision seemed to me on the surface.

Unfortunately, this board is filled with the decision haters, thinking they can do better from their couch, without even trying to consider the other side, because as a guest we deserve the best no matter what.

Im surprised there is not a thread about Disney not providing an atmosphere of better weather when they were there last. How dare those corporate greedy evil Disney suits allow rain on my vacation.......

Again... attack the poster instead of addressing the topic.

This is a place for debatable discussion - however you fail to adhere to it and do not provide convincing support for your position. So what you see as an 'attack' others know as discrediting or countering. So far your support for your view has been
- its not feasible (an opinion that doesn't hold up to scrutiny)
- Disney is better off for doing it this way (an opinion, yet the complaints continue to come in.. so is it really better?)
- You should just focus on the positive and ignore failings (basically.. ignore the consequences)

Meanwhile... none of the above successfully defends against the simply comparison about why such behavior does not require the same ambivalence anywhere else. Or why the same types of behavior lead to negative consequences in most other businesses... yet at Disney it gets you rewarded.

This is debate - you've just failed to support your argument and when challenged you retreat to deflection and attacking people.

Some of us are upset over this behavior because we know what it breeds and the direction it sends companies. It's not about 'my vacation' or one person... it's about the business philosophies, practices, and attitudes of the company and the consequences both near term and long term.

These things aren't just accidents and they don't change overnight. But its very difficult to reverse them and the damage they cause. And certainly ignoring them and painting it all as just 'complainers' who should be focusing on the good, not any bads, are the types that ride the train right off the cliff.

Just as @KevinYee coined 'declining by degrees' for the way Disney has been running the business.. the same applies to social norms and Disney's willingness to stand behind their own vision and their employees.

 

[216bruce]

Same way it's done just about everywhere...

Step 1 - you remind the guest of the rules and give them a warning (in this case.. you gentle remind them of the behavior expected and let them know repeated problems will lead to discipline)
Step 2 - When repeat behavior is an issue, you discipline them (ejecting them from the attraction line.. from the location.. or from the parks for the day)

In Disney's case, everyone has this convenient ticket (and MDE profile for repeat visitors) that makes it easy to associate people for repeat offenses.

You don't even have to have enforcement everywhere, all the time. Just like the Police and Traffic Enforcement, you can get the message across and get the worst offenders with enforcement at key locations at key times.

If Disney can staff dozens of extra locations for MM+ tech support for a year onward... why not use that 'surge' mentality to turn the tide of bad guest behavior with targeted enforcement at key attractions over a period of time.

The 'people that didn't know' and get busted once will adapt and will not need enforcement at every attraction/location to make a noticeable difference.

And maybe, just maybe, over time and with some experience and word of mouth, people may learn that when you do something against a rule or policy that there are consequences; even at WDW. Sure, at first there will be delicate souls who will carp about 'the magic and their lives' were ruined by 'evil Disney' but there will be a great silent majority (like myself) who will say "Thank you Mickey" for doing the right thing.

As an ex-smoker I was outraged when I was told by a cast member that I couldn't light up 'near' an official smoking area a few years ago. They were polite but firm about it. I never did it again. Are Jim-Bob, the Missus and Lil' Buford all going to be reasonable in their response and adherence to policies? Not likely, but you gotta start somewhere.

 

[draybook]

I have only been a member of this board for a short time, but I have noticed this is not a place for a debatable discussion. This is a place to complain, and get others to support your claims on how bad disney is today.

Defending any decision Disney makes on this board opens you for attack. There are many decisions made in the past I thought was just plain stupid and foolish, however, when described why the decision was made, I get the 'ah ha moment, now I get it, now I understand" - as poor as the decision seemed to me on the surface.

Unfortunately, this board is filled with the decision haters, thinking they can do better from their couch, without even trying to consider the other side, because as a guest we deserve the best no matter what.

Im surprised there is not a thread about Disney not providing an atmosphere of better weather when they were there last. How dare those corporate greedy evil Disney suits allow rain on my vacation.......

Disney can control whether or not they let people break the rules and policies that they have set in place. They cannot control the weather. That was a silly comparison to make. And if you've noticed many of us kvetching so much then perhaps, just maybe, it might not just be us? Where there's smoke there's fire. In my limited experience with WDW and UOR, 8 trips to WDW and 6 to UOR, I can honestly say that UOR does a much better job at enforcing their rules. This was our experience only, mileage may vary per family.

 

[NelsonRD]

Again... attack the poster instead of addressing the topic.

This is a place for debatable discussion - however you fail to adhere to it and do not provide convincing support for your position. So what you see as an 'attack' others know as discrediting or countering. So far your support for your view has been
- its not feasible (an opinion that doesn't hold up to scrutiny)
- Disney is better off for doing it this way (an opinion, yet the complaints continue to come in.. so is it really better?)
- You should just focus on the positive and ignore failings (basically.. ignore the consequences)

Meanwhile... none of the above successfully defends against the simply comparison about why such behavior does not require the same ambivalence anywhere else. Or why the same types of behavior lead to negative consequences in most other businesses... yet at Disney it gets you rewarded.

This is debate - you've just failed to support your argument and when challenged you retreat to deflection and attacking people.

Some of us are upset over this behavior because we know what it breeds and the direction it sends companies. It's not about 'my vacation' or one person... it's about the business philosophies, practices, and attitudes of the company and the consequences both near term and long term.

These things aren't just accidents and they don't change overnight. But its very difficult to reverse them and the damage they cause. And certainly ignoring them and painting it all as just 'complainers' who should be focusing on the good, not any bads, are the types that ride the train right off the cliff.

Just as @KevinYee coined 'declining by degrees' for the way Disney has been running the business.. the same applies to social norms and Disney's willingness to stand behind their own vision and their employees.

No, my argument is this: One, my claim is that too strict of enforcement may cause more harm than good. So I understand why some things are overlooked.

Second, there are more important issues to address, such as smoking in the open, line cutting, theft, pushing, and other deliberate bad behavior that needs to be addressed.

Third, relax. I bet your a lot of fun to vacation with. "Hey somebody took a picture on the haunted mansion, lets get him!!!"

You think its so easy, just put up a sign, or talk to them, and problem solved. What I am suggesting is that it is not that easy. I would love to see you as a cast member for one day, and see how you handle the crowds.

Good luck.

 

[flynnibus]

You don't have to 'catch' everyone to make the center move....

 

[mousehockey37]

No, my argument is this: One, my claim is that too strict of enforcement may cause more harm than good. So I understand why some things are overlooked.

Second, there are more important issues to address, such as smoking in the open, line cutting, theft, pushing, and other deliberate bad behavior that needs to be addressed.

For your first comment, any enforcement of something that is new will be looked upon as too strict. It takes making some examples of people for anything to start to catch on. Now this could easily be done by planting a few CMs who are aspiring actors in a crowd and having them get "caught" by Disney security, so as to not use real people to start, but it is a starting point.

For the 2nd, yes, there are those issues as well. Unfortunately not everything will be caught and even if it is, at this time, the CMs can do pretty much nothing but smile and wish you a magical day. There needs to be some sort of change somewhere that allows a CM to be "in character", yet be able to handle a situation as mentioned. Whether it be a radio code to security and pulling the wrong doer's aside for a selected "pixie dust" moment, but then they are taken off-stage and dealt with properly.

The process has to start somewhere is the bottom line. Where I work, as of January 1, they banned smoking on property. They currently have people monitoring the parking lots and such for people smoking in their cars on grounds (you have to leave the property to smoke whether in your car or not). Notice was given, enforcement follows.

 

[NelsonRD]

For your first comment, any enforcement of something that is new will be looked upon as too strict. It takes making some examples of people for anything to start to catch on. Now this could easily be done by planting a few CMs who are aspiring actors in a crowd and having them get "caught" by Disney security, so as to not use real people to start, but it is a starting point.

For the 2nd, yes, there are those issues as well. Unfortunately not everything will be caught and even if it is, at this time, the CMs can do pretty much nothing but smile and wish you a magical day. There needs to be some sort of change somewhere that allows a CM to be "in character", yet be able to handle a situation as mentioned. Whether it be a radio code to security and pulling the wrong doer's aside for a selected "pixie dust" moment, but then they are taken off-stage and dealt with properly.

The process has to start somewhere is the bottom line. Where I work, as of January 1, they banned smoking on property. They currently have people monitoring the parking lots and such for people smoking in their cars on grounds (you have to leave the property to smoke whether in your car or not). Notice was given, enforcement follows.

Wow. You are suggesting that Disney ruin a show to make a point? I am sure that will make for a very magical night when during Wishes, some 'actor' puts a kid on his shoulders and the whole show stops to address it. Yeah, that will work......

So you are in favor of damaging show to 'catch' people using false guests, but you are against a CM's coming out of character to tell somebody smoking in world showcase to stop? I am all in favor of CM's coming out of character to address something, no need to call in and wait for the swat team.

Yes, guest behavior can be bad, but like I said, addressing small things can make it worse. Imagine how nice it would be when you get on small world next time with your kids and when a boat returns and guest is told to not take anymore flash pictures, and it escalates to a near fist fight.

 

[flynnibus]

Yes, guest behavior can be bad, but like I said, addressing small things can make it worse. Imagine how nice it would be when you get on small world next time with your kids and when a boat returns and guest is told to not take anymore flash pictures, and it escalates to a near fist fight.

If it were to come to that.. then the person SHOULD be thrown out.. and raucously so. After it happens a bit, it won't keep happening in the future (the flash AND the fight).

This situation you 'fear' happens all the time in the things disney CHOOSES to enforce... such as keeping people in the designated areas for parades, keeping people from sitting or standing on walls/structures during parades, etc. Most of the time it just takes being called out.

If you cower in fear of confronting someone you might as well not have any rules at all because no one will respect you or them.

 

[NelsonRD]

If it were to come to that.. then the person SHOULD be thrown out.. and raucously so. After it happens a bit, it won't keep happening in the future (the flash AND the fight).

This situation you 'fear' happens all the time in the things disney CHOOSES to enforce... such as keeping people in the designated areas for parades, keeping people from sitting or standing on walls/structures during parades, etc. Most of the time it just takes being called out.

If you cower in fear of confronting someone you might as well not have any rules at all because no one will respect you or them.

I agree. However, it creates a scene. The debate I am trying to have is this: Is it worth it? Is it worth creating a scene? Is it worth upsetting people? is it worth Disney resources? For smoking, line cutting, etc - the answer is yes, its worth it. For some flash photography, and kids on shoulders, to me the answer is no.

With that said, if you are taking dozens of pictures with the red eye on during a dark ride, then it becomes criminal, and the CM's should take your camera away.

 

[216bruce]

Bad behavior is in the eye of the beholder. If I inhale a whiff of second hand smoke, I don't care (think how much you can inhale at fireworks shows if the wind is 'wrong'). If someone jumps in front of me and puts their kid on their shoulders, yeah, I get irritated. Chanting Brazilians in line...don't care. On the ride...irritated. Shirt with questionable content or obscenity...don't care. Line cutting...urge to kill.
It's an individual thing, but Disney could do a much better job by broadening the policies for no-no's and enforcing them.

 

[flynnibus]

I agree. However, it creates a scene. The debate I am trying to have is this: Is it worth it? Is it worth creating a scene? Is it worth upsetting people? is it worth Disney resources? For smoking, line cutting, etc - the answer is yes, its worth it. For some flash photography, and kids on shoulders, to me the answer is no.

and my point is... the problems are no longer isolated, but rampant and getting worse because Disney is not doing anything. So the tide must be turned... and doing nothing is only making the problem WORSE. So yes, I do think 'its worth it' - because you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. Once the standard is understood and expected... you will have less offenders. But if you sit back and cower over making any one scene... then you might as well just turn off the lights and go home.

Disney is very good at making things 'disappear'... I'm not too worried about big public scenes. Yes, occasionally we still get the situations like the fight at the Tower of Terror at DCA... but that's another good example of how when Disney is overly timid... instead of assertive... things often get worse, not better.

I'm not saying everything in the OP's post deserves to be enforced (come on.. most of that was just over the top) but it highlighted what we all know... Disney doesn't enforce its own rules in the vast majority of situations and the public is running all over them for it.

 

[FlyoverFred]

First, for crowds, nothing will happen. If they can hit capacity every day, they will. Second, the US has HIPAA laws that prevent asking or questioning anyone's medical need. This is the issue with ECVs. I think they should be required to have a license for it and insurance. If you run into me with one, be prepared to get your fat rear knocked out of it. Third, CMs in general are happy. There are some that aren't what they use to be and I do not interact with them. The good ones far outweigh the bad ones. Forth, I think selfies are the stupidest thing in the world. There are more than enough people willing to take your picture for you. It is also against the law to take a picture of minors that you are not responsible for. Fifth, for kids on shoulders, it is going to happen. When you are an hour before a show and still way back, the minute one kid goes up, the rest go up. The best advice is scope out where kids will be on shoulders and move somewhere else.

HIPAA has no application to Disney whatsoever. Disney is not a health plan, a health care provider, etc. They could easily require those using scooters to provide proof of medical necessity, and would be well within their right to do it. I think everyone that complains about these scooters knows there are those who truly need them, but there are innumerable examples of obvious abuse as you walk around the park. And for some reason, those people can't seem to refrain from running over everyone else.

The OP mirrors my experience from about a month ago, and we were on our sixth trip in ten years. The experience - and I am not talking about it being "magical" - has been reduced each time. Crowds are up, rides are breaking down with a noticeable increase in frequency, and it just seems like the little details that made it such an outstanding experience are gone. Those on here suggesting patrons should just "get over it" truly perplex me. I get the feeling that Disney could burn your house down, and you would find some excuse as to why it was justified.

The cost of going to Disney world is extremely high. It is so high that some folks can only afford to do it once in a lifetime. This used to be justified by the fact that Disney created such a truly outstanding vacation experience that it seemed well worth the once in a lifetime expense. They knew it, and it was part of their mission to create this experience. If you don't think that Disney has abandoned that mission, you either haven't been to Disney in the last few years, or you are willfully ignorant. Complaining that there is more than one thread on this subject baffles me. There should be about 100 more, or as many as it takes for the message to pick up steam: Disney is losing its core patrons, and should do something about it before it's too late.

 

[Matt_Black]

You know, I haven't noticed bad behavior. I'm too busy having a good time and sharing that gladness via a pleasant attitude.

 

[flynnibus]

HIPAA has no application to Disney whatsoever. Disney is not a health plan, a health care provider, etc. They could easily require those using scooters to provide proof of medical necessity, and would be well within their right to do it

You are correct that HIPAA has no bearing at all here... however trying to require some proof of 'medical necessity' would sink them fast when it comes to ADA compliance. The disabled are not required to carry any proof of necessity when it comes to public accommodations. If Disney were to try to filter access based on such criteria, they'd stand to deny legitimate users as well and get themselves in a(nother) lawsuit. ECVs would not fall under the safety exceptions in the ADA... Disney barely won the argument that Segways did.

Unfortunately we are stuck with the Disney World where anyone who wants an ECV is allowed to use one... in the name of inclusion.

 

[draybook]

You know, I haven't noticed bad behavior. I'm too busy having a good time and sharing that gladness via a pleasant attitude.

I whistle jazzy tunes and skip like a school kid whenever I go to Memphis, but that doesn't mean it's not the third most dangerous city in the country and that bad things aren't happening. Same goes for Disney. Just because some people choose to turn a blind eye to things doesn't mean they won't happen.