Monorail Teal Automation Update, Lime Update, Gray Update and Black Update

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
All of the trains will need the automation system eventually so it doesn't make much sense that they would "give up" on Teal instead of continuing to troubleshoot.

They've been working on Teal for what, at least six months now? At this rate the whole fleet will not be automated until into the 2020s...
Wouldn't upgrading the entire fleet to the new model been faster and cheaper to do? Not to mention better to do as well? Bombardiar could have delivered their newest automated Mark model and it would have been delivered a lot faster and probably for a lot less than what they are spending now (when you factor in all the delays). And they would have gotten higher capacity and better trainsets in the process. dot com
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Wouldn't upgrading the entire fleet to the new model been faster and cheaper to do? Not to mention better to do as well? Bombardiar could have delivered their newest automated Mark model and it would have been delivered a lot faster and probably for a lot less than what they are spending now (when you factor in all the delays). And they would have gotten higher capacity and better trainsets in the process. dot com
If it was cheaper or significantly faster it would have been the followed course. New trains would not have an appreciably higher capacity, much less a capacity that could not be achieved by redoing the interiors of the existing trains.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
If it was cheaper or significantly faster it would have been the followed course. New trains would not have an appreciably higher capacity, much less a capacity that could not be achieved by redoing the interiors of the existing trains.
But they didn't anticipate all the delays and additional expenses caused by the delays...
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Delays that more than likely would have happened with new trains. Delays are pretty much a given in transit projects.
No, it sounds like they are custom developing the train upgrades. Yes, I understand that company that's doing it has installed this exact system in many other past projects, but installing it on the current Disney system hasn't been done by this company before. This is added development cost plus the cost of each time they get it wrong, testing, more development, delays, retries, more testing, and the cycle repeats.

Bombardiar isn't experiencing this problem in São Paulo. No development is required there. Just build and ship and everything should work right if the tracks and electric systems were constructed properly.

What I'm saying is Bombardiar manufacturers their trainsets in a production line copying an already developed, tested, and proven design. Had Disney contracted Bombardiar, the trains would have been delivered fast and they would work (assuming the track upgrades were done correctly).
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
No, it sounds like they are custom developing the train upgrades. Yes, I understand that company that's doing it has installed this exact system in many other past projects, but installing it on the current Disney system hasn't been done by this company before. This is added development cost plus the cost of each time they get it wrong, testing, more development, delays, retries, more testing, and the cycle repeats.

Bombardiar isn't experiencing this problem in São Paulo. No development is required there. Just build and ship and everything should work right if the tracks and electric systems were constructed properly.

What I'm saying is Bombardiar manufacturers their trainsets in a production line copying an already developed, tested, and proven design. Had Disney contracted Bombardiar, the trains would have been delivered fast and they would work (assuming the track upgrades were done correctly).
Adding automation is never the same experience twice. It's not a plug-and-play type of system whether it is a newly built system or an added system. You're also not going to get that like new experience at Walt Disney World unless you shut down the system for months to do the installation uninterrupted.

São Paulo's system is not yet at a point to say there have been no difficulties. A construction worker did though die a few months. There not being cost and time overruns would be huge news as that is a situation that almost never occurs. There were plenty of headaches in Las Vegas where only a small portion of the track was preexisting and the trains were all new. That is also a system that uses the same types of trains as at Walt Disney World, even being sold as the M-VI at the time.
 

MaryJaneP

Well-Known Member
You keep using the term "hybridized system" and I do not know what you mean.

"Hybridized", as we mean it, means a system that has been significantly modified from the "off-the-shelf" design compatible with most existing newer transit technology, beyond simple adjusts and tweaks, to get the system to supposedly work.

You appropriately observe that we do not "know" if the problems that have been reported are due to the chassis or bodies or other infrastructure. However, the question was, rather than spend the time and money to make a square peg fit into a round hole, imperfectly, perhaps the discussion should be about the apparent inapplicability/inability to "upgrade" the entire existing fleet, in a timely and cost-efficient manner, when this "upgraded" fleet is due to be "retired" anyway, and there may be a need to modify a new fleet to work with a kludged automation system.

If, as reported, an existing monorail has "rejected" being "upgraded" with the automation, perhaps the problem is not with the monorail but rather with the automation system. We do not doubt there will be some benefits to automation. Automation seems to be the way to go, particularly in light of the previous history. To do so, primarily for appearances sake, we find reprehensible. The benefits may include reduced staffing costs. And this, we think, absent overriding other benefits, is a poor choice to force upon an outdated system.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
New trains would have new electronics that would have to be made to work with the existing infrastructure. The problems right now are new electronics being made to work with existing infrastructure. New trains don't erase any of the issues, they just make them more expensive. The Mark VIs aren't using the same control systems they had when delivered new in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Transit control systems aren't cell phones, there isn't a new must have every year because a transit project taking a decade to complete is more the norm.
 

MaryJaneP

Well-Known Member
If we may misquote Billy Joel here, we may be wrong and you may be right. Either new or old fleet automation apparently is very expensive. What appears to remain unaddressed is the practicality of trying to "upgrade" an existing fleet that may be replaced (sooner or later) and having to repeat the process for a new fleet (if one is ever purchased). Particularly in light of the time and duplicative money that will be spent to do this twice. Unless, of course, no new fleet is ever going to be made/purchased. We could "upgrade" a horse-drawn buggy by adding a gasoline engine. That, however, does not make it equivalent to a vehicle designed to be an automobile, and may present unanticipated problems (reliability, functionality, etc). Your posts appear to support automation, and in that sense, we are in agreement with you. We also find your recitation of the need for automation as soon as possible to be well founded and we agree. We are, nonetheless, less convinced and skeptical of the suitability of the current fleet to support this "upgrade", especially in light of the problems encountered to date.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
If we may misquote Billy Joel here, we may be wrong and you may be right. Either new or old fleet automation apparently is very expensive. What appears to remain unaddressed is the practicality of trying to "upgrade" an existing fleet that may be replaced (sooner or later) and having to repeat the process for a new fleet (if one is ever purchased). Particularly in light of the time and duplicative money that will be spent to do this twice. Unless, of course, no new fleet is ever going to be made/purchased. We could "upgrade" a horse-drawn buggy by adding a gasoline engine. That, however, does not make it equivalent to a vehicle designed to be an automobile, and may present unanticipated problems (reliability, functionality, etc). Your posts appear to support automation, and in that sense, we are in agreement with you. We also find your recitation of the need for automation as soon as possible to be well founded and we agree. We are, nonetheless, less convinced and skeptical of the suitability of the current fleet to support this "upgrade", especially in light of the problems encountered to date.
New trains are not significantly different than old trains so there is no new train out there that is "properly" designed from he ground up for automation. New/rebuilt trains would just utilize the automation system that is being put in place now, so the automation system would not be replaced and the only duplication of effort would be in regards to wiring, which would not have to change significantly with a rebuild. So new/rebuilt trains would still benefit from the experience gained now because they would not just work on arrival.
 

MaryJaneP

Well-Known Member
The Mythbusters have proven it is possible to polish a turd. To us, it sounds like newspeak to use the word "upgrade" to describe current, reportedly unsuccessful, efforts to add automation to the present monorail fleet.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
The Mythbusters have proven it is possible to polish a turd. To us, it sounds like newspeak to use the word "upgrade" to describe current, reportedly unsuccessful, efforts to add automation to the present monorail fleet.
And plenty of brand new automation systems have similar periods where there is little success. The only solution to these problems that meets what you want is shutting the whole thing down for months and doing it all at once.
 

MaryJaneP

Well-Known Member
It sounds like you are saying that there will NEVER be a new fleet. It that is so, just say it. At least this discussion would be concluded.

We believe we previous mentioned that it may be advisable to develop ONE monorail as a test-bed example of this. Pressure test this example and develop some repeatability/longevity of the modification. Put in the other infrastructure portions, which would be needed for this or any other automated fleet.

If TEAL was selected as the first test-bed victim, that has apparently been abandoned. As such, a different monorail will be "tested". Kinda raises the question of what to do with TEAL eventually needing the automation system or does TEAL just sit unused? Also what happens if other monorails "reject" the "upgrade"? Really, nobody else apparently sees this as a Don Quixote mission or are they just smart enough to steer clear? You say tomato...
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
It sounds like you are saying that there will NEVER be a new fleet. It that is so, just say it. At least this discussion would be concluded.
It probably will not happen for decades. The trains can be rebuilt like they have done for Disneyland.

IWe believe we previous mentioned that it may be advisable to develop ONE monorail as a test-bed example of this. Pressure test this example and develop some repeatability/longevity of the modification. Put in the other infrastructure portions, which would be needed for this or any other automated fleet.
Monorail Teal is that test vehicle. A brand new monorail built for testing would not be appreciably different from what is operating.

IIf TEAL was selected as the first test-bed victim, that has apparently been abandoned. As such, a different monorail will be "tested". Kinda raises the question of what to do with TEAL eventually needing the automation system or does TEAL just sit unused? Also what happens if other monorails "reject" the "upgrade"? Really, nobody else apparently sees this as a Don Quixote mission or are they just smart enough to steer clear? You say tomato...
You're buying into this idea of "rejection," which already makes no sense, from one person with a spotty at best track record. Monorail trains are not sentient beings with unconscious responses. The whole point of tests on a single vehicle is to find these sorts of problems and work through them. Even putting Monorail Teal back into service could have to do with factors beyond problems with automation testing, like another train that could benefit from the downtime.
 

MaryJaneP

Well-Known Member
Are they working through the problems or just choosing another train that could benefit from downtime? Should they work through the problems on the current fleet or must they because a new fleet is decades away? We appreciate your optimistic perspective, we just don't share it.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Are they working through the problems or just choosing another train that could benefit from downtime? Should they work through the problems on the current fleet or must they because a new fleet is decades away? We appreciate your optimistic perspective, we just don't share it.
What you keep completely missing is that even with brand new trains you would still be working through problems with the automation. There is nothing about new trains that makes them magically better or different.
 

MaryJaneP

Well-Known Member
We disagree with you that new trains would be problematic regarding automation, especially if the new trains were designed to utilize automation. Chalk it up to differing opinions. If you say we are completely missing something you are certain of, you are absolutely correct.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
We disagree with you that new trains would be problematic regarding automation, especially if the new trains were designed to utilize automation. Chalk it up to differing opinions. If you say we are completely missing something you are certain of, you are absolutely correct.
But you cannot say what would make the new trains appreciably different than the existing trains. They are nothing more than a hypothetical that has been given an inherent superiority.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
-sniffs-

Ahhhhhh, the wonderful smell of a monorail fuss in the morning! ;)

Forreal though, both of you have valid points. Though I think what should be done, is automate the system, and when it's approved for service, let it run until the time for new trains. In which the new trains would already have the new technology, and can be placed, tested, and sent out.

It's quite an extensive process that we're hoping goes a lot faster but isn't. Regardless, we see a lot of stuff going on, that hasn't in a while. So to remain optimistic wouldn't be frowned upon, but with not much information going out, it's not really clear what's happening from day to the next.
 

rangerbob

Well-Known Member
Maybe this is another case of an employee saying something just to rouse a response from a visitor to the park. Maybe the automation system is working perfectly on Teal so they are ripping it out to test it on another sytem just to ensure that placing it works exactly the same way with the previous train. I'm sure they won't want to have custom pieces made and then have to be modified on each train just to make it work or fit into the cab.
 

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