GAC to Become DAS

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Gomer

Well-Known Member
Also I question all the stories of my non verbal child said their first words on Peter Pan because we were able to ride over and over again. Just too many instances for all of these Autism miracles in Disney to be reality.

1. I think you are combining two unrelated things. I could be wrong, but in reading this entire thread I don't recall a single person stating their child spoke their first words BECAUSE they rode something multiple times in a row. Riding multiple times has been advocated by some to avoid meltdowns, but has never been directly tied to cognitive development in this thread to the best of my memory.

2. The fact that you call it a "miracle" shows you are misunderstanding these stories. As I've said multiple times here, the unique combination of sensory issues combined with the sensory overload of the parks amplifies many autistic children's focus. Many many children see an improvement in behavior and cognitive ability across a large spectrum after or during a visit to the parks. First words stories are just one an example of this. If you take the stories in that context, it actually makes perfect sense that a child whose first words are significantly delayed, might finally speak them when presented with a set of circumstances that drives them to surpass their standard behavior and reach out to communicate. I would liken it to water sloshing around in a tub as it fills and fills, and then someone opening the drain. In autism, the words are there in the child's brain, but motor planning and verbal planning issues keep them from getting the words out. WDW, I believe, has the ability to help open that drain so some of what has been building in the child's head can finally get out.

Blanket internet cynicism aside, WDW (the parks themselves, not placing any judgment on DAS/GAC in this argument at all) has been anecdotally shown in many circumstances to aide in development for children with ASD. So as opposed to throwing that away as some sort of mass lie or coincidence, perhaps it should be studied so it can be used. I usually favor a belief that if something works over and over again, that shows it to work...not shows it as a lie. Unfortunately, cynicism and mocking are the default reaction for most (even developmental professionals), so very few doctors are willing to look into sensory affects on behavior. In that world, if it can't be fixed with a pill, its a lie.
 

minninedaisy74

Active Member
Blanket internet cynicism aside, WDW (the parks themselves, not placing any judgment on DAS/GAC in this argument at all) has been anecdotally shown in many circumstances to aide in development for children with ASD. So as opposed to throwing that away as some sort of mass lie or coincidence, perhaps it should be studied so it can be used. I usually favor a belief that if something works over and over again, that shows it to work...not shows it as a lie. Unfortunately, cynicism and mocking are the default reaction for most (even developmental professionals), so very few doctors are willing to look into sensory affects on behavior. In that world, if it can't be fixed with a pill, its a lie.

By who? Parents advocating for the anytime anywhere pass. Sorry the old system was not just abused by those who had non disabilities but by parents of ASD children who allowed their children to ride the most popular rides over and over again while everyone else waits. I can see maybe be doing it a couple of times but when I read of families riding Toy Story or Peter Pan 10 times in a row while the only option to the everyone else is standing in line or pulling a fast pass I have a problem with that.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
As I explicitly pointed out in my post as well as many others. I am not advocating for ride looping. Only commenting on your reactionary disbelief of cognitive and developmental improvements during a visit to WDW. You are lumping all people commenting from a perspective of having children with ASD together unfairly. The riding TSMM 10 times and children speaking their first words are completely unrelated. You are making assumptions that all of us dealing with ASD are in lock step on all comments. That sort of generalization is unfair.

I have never and would never let my son ride anything 10 times in a row. It creates the very dependency people are trying to accommodate by abusing the GAC. But the fact that some people with ASD abused the system, does not make the stories of breakthroughs or developments during visits untrue. It is two completely separate behaviors that both happen to take place in WDW that are being grouped purely because the people commenting on the two issues happen to share a disability.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
How about Autism and other mental conditions are approved across the board and other conditions are approved at the discretion of a manager? So if the person has a wheelchair, then the manager says no, but if the person can't use a wheelchair or has another issue, then the manager can approve that.
This points to the common sense argument. The way the rule is written online indicates that there is some room for them to bend a bit, but I keep hearing more and more that it isn't happening. When you come up with a system with strict rules you have the choice on whether or not to allow exceptions for common sense. The old rules were essentially "accommodate everyone", I can certainly see changing that, but they've gone to the other extreme.
 

unkadug

Follower of "Saget"The Cult
How about Autism and other mental conditions are approved across the board and other conditions are approved at the discretion of a manager? So if the person has a wheelchair, then the manager says no, but if the person can't use a wheelchair or has another issue, then the manager can approve that.
That seems to be it...If you aren't autistic, then you get nothing at all.

And the bad thing is the autistic community seems to still be unhappy because they no longer have FOL access.
Odd use of the term, "golden ticket".

Perhaps it is...but it has been shown that the simple inclusion of that word will get you a pass when otherwise you would get "use a wheelchair".
 

Da Man

Member
As I explicitly pointed out in my post as well as many others. I am not advocating for ride looping. Only commenting on your reactionary disbelief of cognitive and developmental improvements during a visit to WDW. You are lumping all people commenting from a perspective of having children with ASD together unfairly. The riding TSMM 10 times and children speaking their first words are completely unrelated. You are making assumptions that all of us dealing with ASD are in lock step on all comments. That sort of generalization is unfair.

I have never and would never let my son ride anything 10 times in a row. It creates the very dependency people are trying to accommodate by abusing the GAC. But the fact that some people with ASD abused the system, does not make the stories of breakthroughs or developments during visits untrue. It is two completely separate behaviors that both happen to take place in WDW that are being grouped purely because the people commenting on the two issues happen to share a disability.

Maybe you wouldn't. But due to others doing it, this new system is in place.

I know I'm going to be seen as a horse's a$$, but here goes. I have read through all 127 pages of this thread over several weeks, and one thing stands out-everyone seems to feel their disability or their child's disability (be it physical, mental, or emotional), entitles them to no-wait, front of the line access. Folks are forgetting one VERY important fact in all of this-WDW is a business in the end, and the vast majority of their money is made from those very crowds that are standing in line, sans disability. It sucks, but there it is.

The point of DAS/GAC was an attempt to placate and accommodate people with disabilities while still making sure the waiting masses were handled in a reasonable time (the majority that pays the bills). That was not happening. Ride loopers, line jumpers, Tiny Tims (I'm at the front of the line and suddenly cured of needing to sit in a wheel chair), etc brought this system down on everyone. This can be discussed ad nauseum (as it has for 127 pages of people ranting 'my disability trumps your disability' or 'my IBS makes it impossible to wait in a line'-never mind if you can't wait in a line, where do you drop one while you sit on IASW for 8 minutes?) and it won't matter. WDW has made a decision-a business decision. Your choices are as follows-
-Go to Disney and comply (the first rational thing),
-Go to Disney and make a scene a humiliate a cast member that is only tasked by some corporate suit to enforce a rule (the pathetic human response that has become en vogue on these boards and at Disney)
-Don't go (but keep in mind Universal's policy is almost the EXACT same thing). This is the second rational thing.

But keep in mind one thing. As much bad press as is possible has been brought to bear on Disney for this; be it Autism mom on Youtube, to the Orlando printed media, and you know what? No one cares. Because the vast majority of people are standing in 95 degree heat for 40 minutes to ride Dumbo and if this moves the line forward faster, they aren't going to complain or help you. That's the cold, hard reality at the end of the day.

Good luck-but remember-as stated above 'Disney is not there as a therapy session for your Honey Boo-Boo'. It's there for the enjoyment of all, and WDI has made a decision who 'all' is. It's time to move forward and accept it.

An aside-When my family and I were there in September, the lines were short and quick for almost everything in the World. I followed a family one morning out of the Wilderness Lodge. They had a child in a wheelchair. Of course, we all waited at the bus stop until they had boarded. Then we boarded. We arrived at the Magic Kingdom. We hopped off of the bus and proceeded to move towards the entrance. It was while we were waiting to get in something struck me. The family with the wheelchair-required child had magically transformed. It was a miracle!!! Except now it was their poor father that had the disability. I became concerned what this family had may be contagious. Later, as we were waiting to get on at the POTC, the disease had afflicted yet another family member-this time the mother.

My heart of course broke for this family. To have multiple members afflicted in one day by the same obviously crippling disease has to be trying, and to see the (very) brave faces the family wore was so uplifting (such brave faces I wouldn't have known the family was afflicted at all with this musical chairs disability). Then I heard the son (originally wheel chair bound at the bus stop while I was sweating vital fluids onto the concrete waiting to board-but still sympathetic) tell his father 'I'm want to ride the wheel chair when we go back to the bus'. I couldn't believe it! They had been gaming the system the whole time. I wonder why this system was instituted in the first place?

Hopefully, readers will see the dripping sarcasm of the story above. But my point is this-I dropped $6500 for the first vacation my family and I have taken since I was without a job 3 years ago. I haven't had a weekend, holiday, or sick day since for a long time. To have to observe this when that much money is saved and the planning that was involved, is frankly disgusting. Now I know a lot of people will call me heartless, say I'm cruel, or that I don't know what it's like. You're missing the point-Disney made a decision based on people like me complaining about the BS they were witnessing while not gaming the system themselves. And they had to do something. And they aren't going back. That's life. But the sympathetic side of me knows you already know that because of the daily challenge you face with you or a loved one's disability. And for that I'm sorry, but this is the way it is going to be.
 

minninedaisy74

Active Member
As I explicitly pointed out in my post as well as many others. I am not advocating for ride looping. Only commenting on your reactionary disbelief of cognitive and developmental improvements during a visit to WDW. You are lumping all people commenting from a perspective of having children with ASD together unfairly. The riding TSMM 10 times and children speaking their first words are completely unrelated. You are making assumptions that all of us dealing with ASD are in lock step on all comments. That sort of generalization is unfair.

I have never and would never let my son ride anything 10 times in a row. It creates the very dependency people are trying to accommodate by abusing the GAC. But the fact that some people with ASD abused the system, does not make the stories of breakthroughs or developments during visits untrue. It is two completely separate behaviors that both happen to take place in WDW that are being grouped purely because the people commenting on the two issues happen to share a disability.
I wasn't particularly referring to you. There are many other forums on the internet dealing with Disney where you will read many posters who claim exactly what I am talking about. You must have missed all the talk on here earlier in the thread about that nut case Autism Hippy .
 

minninedaisy74

Active Member
Good luck-but remember-as stated above 'Disney is not there as a therapy session for your Honey Boo-Boo'. It's there for the enjoyment of all, and WDI has made a decision who 'all' is. It's time to move forward and accept it.

.
Best advice ever!!! Honey Boo-Boo is that new term for snowflake???
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
I wasn't particularly referring to you. There are many other forums on the internet dealing with Disney where you will read many posters who claim exactly what I am talking about. You must have missed all the talk on here earlier in the thread about that nut case Autism Hippy .
I've read every post in this thread, and if you look back you will see me tearing apart Autism Hippie more harshly than many.

But, Autism Hippie isn't here. Neither are those posting at that "other message board". I keep coming back to this thread as it has somewhat stayed a rational back and forth debating issues with the GAC change. What I don't see here recently are many people calling the system a failure or stating they need to loop rides ten times. What I see here is an intelligent debate on where to draw the line in restricting physical disabilities, what constitutes a disability, cast member training, and the positives and negatives of the wheelchair in standby line workaround for those with purely physical disabilities.

But it seems that people keep coming here to fight battles that are occurring elsewhere, so I keep writing my posts to remind those who care not to paint us all with the same brush. Brash generalizations about ASD people abusing the system or conspiracies about lying about positive effects of using WDW as a tool for helping children with disabilities only serve to villaininze and generalize a group of people with as diverse behaviors and opinions as the non-disabled.

I'm sure this wasn't your intent, but as long as I can stand to do it, I'll continue to post in this thread when I see these generalizations because those attitudes come back to haunt people like my son, who might get a dirty look or a nasty comment from a guest or cast member when we use our DAS ( a total of once or twice a trip I might add) because of the sins of others. These generalizations (in real life and WDW life)are just a subdued form of bigotry that haunts my son's life every day, so I speak up whenever I can. There is a growing sentiment these days amongst the less intelligent people of the world that Autism is some sort of scam, and I see it more and more ever year ( very much NOT intending to say you are one of these people).

I hope I don't offend you, but it is less meant for you than those who will read a post like yours about the "first words" stories being a lie, and extrapolate from there that all ASD stories like this are a lie. This can lead to prejudice and even hate. I'm doing my part to make sure that those with ASD who are not abusing the system or complaining about the changes, but do use WDW for its therapeutic properties are heard. A subtle reminder to those lurking on the board, not to generalize us as all being Autism Hippies.
 
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Gomer

Well-Known Member
I know I'm going to be seen as a horse's a$$, but here goes. I have read through all 127 pages of this thread over several weeks, and one thing stands out-everyone seems to feel their disability or their child's disability (be it physical, mental, or emotional), entitles them to no-wait, front of the line access.
I have also read every page of this thread and couldn't disagree more. There are some who have expressed that sentiment. But nothing even remotely close to 100%. I have found those affected with disabilities in this thread to be on the most part reasonable in terms of what they expect. Those who disagree may be louder and post more frequently, but that is not cause to generalize an entire group based on the words of a few.
 

Da Man

Member
I have also read every page of this thread and couldn't disagree more. There are some who have expressed that sentiment. But nothing even remotely close to 100%. I have found those affected with disabilities in this thread to be on the most part reasonable in terms of what they expect. Those who disagree may be louder and post more frequently, but that is not cause to generalize an entire group based on the words of a few.

Then we're going to have to agree to disagree. People posting here that the new system isn't good enough for them or their loved ones are arguing exactly what you claim isn't happening-that the system doesn't take their particular disability into account adequately. And you also posted something erroneously above-about Autismhippy and 'other boards'. They are extremely relevant to the conversation as this discussion, whether it occurs here or elsewhere, is the broad opinion and movement being brought against DAS. The entire situation needs to be looked at as a whole to understand what is going on with relation to why DAS is having such a blowback only by people used GAC and are now finding a perceived or real fault with DAS.

And also why the paying 'healthy' masses are silent when it comes to the prior ride looping, line-jumping, etc still occurring.

There are really two things going on here, and it's why the conversation is going nowhere. Without identifying both of them and keeping both in one's argument, will people understand why WDW's move was necessary, and why some groups feel left out in the cold now.
 

Da Man

Member
Everyone keep one other thing in mind-ADA precludes some of the exact arguments being made by individuals demanding something similar to the old GAC. Disney cannot distinguish whether or not one disability provides a higher level of DAS than another. They can only decide whether an individual requires ADA assistance or not above what has already been instituted on the rides in the park. And if WDW has rides with wheelchair access in a proportionate amount to non-ADA cars, boats, etc., they are in the clear in not offering further ADA assistance in the form of a special card.

ADA says, in a nutshell, that a reasonable amount of effort needs to be made to provide an equalizing amount of opportunity for those with a handicap recognized under ADA. Not that special accommodations need to be made per disability, per ride, per line size, per weather condition. Disney could scrap DAS entirely and most likely still meet ADA requirements for infrastructure conditions.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
Then we're going to have to agree to disagree. People posting here that the new system isn't good enough for them or their loved ones are arguing exactly what you claim isn't happening-that the system doesn't take their particular disability into account adequately. And you also posted something erroneously above-about Autismhippy and 'other boards'. They are extremely relevant to the conversation as this discussion, whether it occurs here or elsewhere, is the broad opinion and movement being brought against DAS. The entire situation needs to be looked at as a whole to understand what is going on with relation to why DAS is having such a blowback only by people used GAC and are now finding a perceived or real fault with DAS.

And also why the paying 'healthy' masses are silent when it comes to the prior ride looping, line-jumping, etc still occurring.

There are really two things going on here, and it's why the conversation is going nowhere. Without identifying both of them and keeping both in one's argument, will people understand why WDW's move was necessary, and why some groups feel left out in the cold now.
Arguing that someone with CP deserves a DAS isn't arguing for FOTL access. Its arguing for the ability to wait for your ride time elsewhere.

And I don't think Autism Hippie and others should be excluded from the conversation, but to bring them into a closed conversation without reference in response to someone stating something counter to the actions of those others you are referenceing is irresponsible and damaging to the clarity of the debate. Like I said, you are painting everyone with the same brush. I approve the GAC changes. I don't see many problems with the current system outside of loosening some restrictions as to who should be able to use it. I have severe issues with Disney's "Autism only" policy as I find it hurtful to those with ASD and otherwise.

I also know there are many here who don't post frequently (or at all) or have just grown tired of this thread that agree with me. But, you say "all of us" want FOTL passes. Then because you say it, it must be true. I must be lying, as are the others who agree with me and have posted it here that they think the DAS is sufficient for them.
 

StarWarsGirl

Well-Known Member
That seems to be it...If you aren't autistic, then you get nothing at all.

And the bad thing is the autistic community seems to still be unhappy because they no longer have FOL access.
It's unfortunate that they won't accommodate everyone the same. And as someone with a brother with autism (generally, we say "has autism" not "autistic" and "autism community" not "autistic community". Be careful; I know some parents who are sensitive about that, and autistic community impplies that everyone in it has autism, when it's really their support system) the new system seems to work just fine. They had something similar in Disneyland for Radiator Springs Racers and it worked well. But it won't work for every child. When you've met one child with autism, you've met one child with autism; they are all different.
 
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Da Man

Member
It's always a convenient argument that 'there are a lot of people who don't post that agree with me'.

As far as the autism only policy, I'll believe it when WDW literature leaks out stating that's the policy. A civil rights attorney would have a field day if that were 'truly' the case. It's only been annecdotal so far.

And there is no 'broad brush' being used here. But the simple logic is 'either DAS works or it doesn't'. You can think one disability trumps another with access and handling, but the reality (and only valid argument to be made) is that either DAS works or doesn't, as that is the instituted and active policy by which people will be handled with going forward.
 

unkadug

Follower of "Saget"The Cult
It's always a convenient argument that 'there are a lot of people who don't post that agree with me'.

As far as the autism only policy, I'll believe it when WDW literature leaks out stating that's the policy. A civil rights attorney would have a field day if that were 'truly' the case. It's only been annecdotal so far.

And there is no 'broad brush' being used here. But the simple logic is 'either DAS works or it doesn't'. You can think one disability trumps another with access and handling, but the reality (and only valid argument to be made) is that either DAS works or doesn't, as that is the instituted and active policy by which people will be handled with going forward.
And that is the exact reason you will never see it as an official policy. Anecdotal is enough proof for me of it being a standing policy.
 

minninedaisy74

Active Member
I said this before many pages back but no one is entitled to a Disney vacation and if you don't like the policy's Disney has in place then don't visit. I am sorry but a huge part of the Disney internet community who have an Autistic/ SPD\ADH ect child have been more then vocal about how their child is entitled to a FOLT pass and not only that but a Disney vacation! Sorry but they have no more of a right to a Disney trip then the underprivileged kid born to a meth head mother. The victim in all of this is Disney because they are damned of the they do ............,
 
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