FP+ meltdown part x

[Tod&BigMamaOdie]

IMO, it's not the NextGen/FP+ system that's solely the problem. It's the fact that thru the past 20-ish years or so, the attraction count has only grown by one or so yet the attendance has grown higher with each passing year.
Also, they need to flesh out the other three parks to distribute guests there as opposed to the MK.

ETA - speaking above about MK. Also, note the quality of secondary attractions needs improving.

 

[pax_65]

In my opinion, that one line boils down the problem that many have with FP+.

I have two questions about this. First, for the off-property guest who shows up at a park and buys tickets at the door (hard to imagine for us diehards, but still a common practice), the experience will be worse than ever - although many of them may be first-time guests with no point of reference. On-site guests with passes in hand who have gotten their FPs at 60-days out will have a distinct advantage.

Second, if Disney starts offering additional FP+s for purchase (which I see as inevitable), this equality you see will disappear. But then the advantage won't go to the person who did their homework and planned ahead, it will go to the person who spends more $$$.

 

[ford91exploder]

But you know what they're like, even if they did come to the parks a lot they'd be escorted by an army of plaids, any basic sit-down restaurant meals would have the chef creating custom fine dining for them a world away from the slop served to DDP guests, rides would be straight on through the exit... the only way for what you describe to happen is if they did it 'undercover boss' style and went in as civilians without plaids to assist them.

Is there anyone with any authority over WDW who doesn't have an ego the size of the moon and could stomach mucking in with everyone else like that for even a day? I doubt it, but if they did it would be really eye opening.

That's true - however you would have the POSSIBILITY of random interactions the so called 'EUREKA' moment which in the current structure has no possibility of happening.

 

[hopemax]

I'm not sure why my experience last NYE was so different from this Autumn. Crowds during NYE are insanely heavy. I'm used to that. And crowds this Autumn were heavier than previous years. But my expectation of availability and being able to adjust my schedule "on the go" was not met. I'm suspecting they are not holding back as many FP+ as they did during NYE. If that's the case, and FP+ has gotten to be as bogged down as the old ADR system, then it's even more useless to me than the paper FP+ system.

For your NYE trip, off-site guests were not permitted to reserve FP+ anywhere but AK, and day-off only. They were allowed to use the kiosks day-off in all parks, mid-January, and given 30 day privileges on March 31st. Off-site represents something like 40-50% of guests, so it was a very, very large group of people added to the system. And once they were added, resort or AP holders that had been lax to reserve started to reserve too. So there was a major jump in utilization rates, and therefore availability between your two trips.

 

[ford91exploder]

Eye rolling cast members should be canned. Their very job is to get with the program. If they can't do that, they need to go.

No they should be PROMOTED as they see what is wrong from the CUSTOMERS point of view, In the end the only opinion that matters is the customer's as in will I spend more money with you in the future.

 

[ford91exploder]

In my opinion, that one line boils down the problem that many have with FP+.

A 'Smattering' of us thought the ORIGINAL FP was a bad idea, FP+ the embodiment of evil and would like to go back to the all lines are STANDBY days.

 

[JediMasterMatt]

Eye rolling cast members should be canned. Their very job is to get with the program. If they can't do that, they need to go.

Sorry to disagree; but, steadfastly - NO.

Disney Parks were founded on the principle of giving outstanding customer service. It was part of Walt's original vision to beat the competition by striving for excellence. This is one of the pillars that the very foundation of the legacy of the resort and parks we love.

MM+ and FP+ are taking away Cast Members ability to provide ANY solutions to guest frustrations as the MM+ system has zero ability to handle imperfections built in. I'll relink my detailed thoughts on this from earlier in the thread in case you missed them: http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/fp-meltdown-part-x.891964/page-4#post-6384357. *BTW - I still don't have my response from management to my inquiry.

The very last thing that anyone that cares about this resort needs are more people toting the company line.

Cast Members are just as frustrated and unhappy with MM+/FP+ as we are. They have been provided no utilities to cope with the problems as they no longer exist in a tangible manner. The problems exist in a digital world; but, have to be resolved in the physical one.

WDW needs more Cast Members like the ones that voodoo321 encountered. It doesn't sound like that individual was providing negative feedback unsolicited. The guest engaged in a conversation about their negative experiences and since TDO hasn't given the Cast any tools to help change that perception - what else can they do. The Cast Member did the only thing that could make voodoo321 feel any better - he empathized and agreed with them.

If WDW is going to be saved, it needs everyone to tell them what is right and wrong with the resort. If they don't listen to what you are saying, typing, writing to them - change your language to that of your pocketbook.

 

[BroganMc]

For your NYE trip, off-site guests were not permitted to reserve FP+ anywhere but AK, and day-off only. They were allowed to use the kiosks day-off in all parks, mid-January, and given 30 day privileges on March 31st. Off-site represents something like 40-50% of guests, so it was a very, very large group of people added to the system. And once they were added, resort or AP holders that had been lax to reserve started to reserve too. So there was a major jump in utilization rates, and therefore availability between your two trips.

That explains AP holders taking up demand but the onsite guests getting access "day of" to only AK does not explain why availability is lacking "week of" as well as "day of". I'm talking about checking for FP+ the night before (between 11pm - 2am) and morning you get up (between 5am-8am). These times were suddenly inundated with time slots last NYE.

My logic tells me that if the same proportion of time slots were being held back this past Sep/Oct then I would have seen slots open every night/morning of my trip between park closing and opening. Well before the day guests could get to a kiosk. Since it wasn't, my logic tells me they aren't holding back as many slots.

The one time I did FP+ in staged releases was during the FP+ Only trial of TSMM. It started out flooding the system with times the night before the trial. Then it would get sporadically empty during the day. Around 2pm it would show full, but by 4pm it was open again. A similar thing happened with Anna & Elsa. The downside was though you got a "FP+" (more a permission to ride) your wait started at 30 minutes or more. And you had to sacrifice a FP+ for something else.

 

[Tod&BigMamaOdie]

Also, if you ever see someone attempting to get in the que for Stitch, please walk up to them, burp in their face, and say "You're welcome. I just saved you 10-15 minutes".

 

[hopemax]

That explains AP holders taking up demand but the onsite guests getting access "day of" to only AK does not explain why availability is lacking "week of" as well as "day of". I'm talking about checking for FP+ the night before (between 11pm - 2am) and morning you get up (between 5am-8am). These times were suddenly inundated with time slots last NYE.

My logic tells me that if the same proportion of time slots were being held back this past Sep/Oct then I would have seen slots open every night/morning of my trip between park closing and opening. Well before the day guests could get to a kiosk. Since it wasn't, my logic tells me they aren't holding back as many slots.

The one time I did FP+ in staged releases was during the FP+ Only trial of TSMM. It started out flooding the system with times the night before the trial. Then it would get sporadically empty during the day. Around 2pm it would show full, but by 4pm it was open again. A similar thing happened with Anna & Elsa. The downside was though you got a "FP+" (more a permission to ride) your wait started at 30 minutes or more. And you had to sacrifice a FP+ for something else.

I'd bet that in order to satisfy demand for off-site guests at 30 days, there is little room in the system to hold back slots the day before. Also, the word is out among the planners to check the week before and day before at midnight for any last minute additions. There are people that do nothing but refresh looking for times, and then post when they are available, telling others to run, run, run. So by the time you would randomly check, all the people hitting the system, systematically, had snatched them all up. Again, the difference is tons more people are using the system now than they were at NYE.

 

[BroganMc]

I'd bet that in order to satisfy demand for off-site guests at 30 days, there is little room in the system to hold back slots the day before. Also, the word is out among the planners to check the week before and day before at midnight for any last minute additions. There are people that do nothing but refresh looking for times, and then post when they are available, telling others to run, run, run. So by the time you would randomly check, all the people hitting the system, systematically, had snatched them all up. Again, the difference is tons more people are using the system now than they were at NYE.

I highly doubt that hypothesis. I was thinking maybe it was just increased crowds my last trip or bad luck, but then I found a nice handy dandy tool online that polls the FP+ system every 30 minutes looking for times over the next 3 months. Watching that for a few days gives you surprising results. A&E and 7DMT are continually booked solid up until Christmas week. Right through the 60 day window. TSMM is booked through the 30 day window. More discouragingly NO TIMES open the week or day of your search no matter when it checks. 2pm EST, 6pm EST, 11pm EST, 12midnight EST, 3am EST, 5amEST, 8am EST, etc. Occasionally a day will open within that window, but when you find out what time slot is available it is one for near park closing. Obviously the only availablity is due to cancellations.

No wonder people with APs are reporting finding absolutely nothing for the headliners when their 30 day window opens.

Even more frustrating, since Disney is allowing onsite guests to book FP+ for the entire length of their stay, some attractions like A&E are booked up days before the 60 day window opens.

The tool is here: http://www.thedibb.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=835236

That is the proverbial smoking gun to me. It gives data to explain why my experience was so different this last trip. It wasn't the crowds. It was how FP+ availability was implemented.

 

[BigTxEars]

Don't worry... I certainly didn't expect you to understand.

I could tell from your post that you did not understand the concept of immersion so I guess we are on the same page then.

 

[BrerJon]

The tool is here: http://www.thedibb.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=835236

That's amazing... I knew you had to get to the parks early to get a Fastpass and it might be for an unsuitable time, but I had no idea that *entire days* were booked up weeks in advance for things like 7 Dwarfs, that's awful.

So there's literally no way anyone who makes a plan at a couple of weeks notice or less can get a Fastpass. So basically they might as well have blocked the ability to use Fastpass at all for certain guests.

I see what they've done... When it comes to getting on the big headliners, Fastpass has become a resort guest exclusive perk in all but name. They've managed to do just what Universal does, make it something only hotel guests can get the most from, without being seen in public to be denying anyone access. Clever, Disney, very clever.

 

[1023]

You're a FAN!

Let's assume the following; Since you are here reading,contributing, or both, that you are a loyal Disney fan. You are passionate enough to seek out opportunities to read and share with others your thoughts on a variety of items related to that brand. You are the loyal customer that should be most prized.

Why are you most prized as a loyal customer? You are worth at least 10 times more than your initial purchase. In the case of Disney, because of the wide variety of business segments they have, that's a lot of initial purchases. A loyal customer is worth more than a "one and done".

The Effects Customer Service

The description "smattering" of complaints regarding MM+/FP+ maybe vague as it is not a specific number. Do you think that a "smattering" could be as low as .1%? Let's use that number here so we can actually do some math here. So at AK, let's say attendance is 30,000 guests and only .1% of those guests experience issues with that breaks their MAGICal day enough to go to Guest Relations. That means only 30 guests had a hard enough time walked to Guest Relations to deal with said problem. That number seems low to me, as I have stood in a queue at GR that was at least 10 deep with issues, but that is not the purpose of this exercise.

The problem is that those 30 guests only represent the 4% of the real dissatisfied customers. In customer service businesses, only 4% of Dissatisfied customers let a business know about it. For AK in our example 96% of the customers didn't bother to try and fix their issue. They let it go. Something else to consider, of the total number of dissatisfied customers, 86 to 91% never come back. That's about 700 people that day.

Disney NEEDS repeat LOYAL customers

Did you know, the probability of selling to a new customer is 5% to 20%? That means of the people interested in your product or service you get about 5 to 20 out of every hundred prospects. This number is likely higher for Disney's theme park division but those numbers for WDW have lost ground of late.

Did you know, the probability of selling to and existing customer is 60% to 70%? Loyal customers are easier to sell to. Ever get a mailer from Disney? They work and they are far cheaper than huge advertising campaigns around the world.

It is 6 to 7 times more expensive to acquire a new customer than it is to keep a current one. Customer retention is key. The saving grace for Disney is that most of the P&R guests are there for multiple days. This gives them a chance to retain that customer by providing 12 positive customer experiences to make up for the unreported negative experience. A 12 to 1 ratio of Good to Bad. Disney P&R can do that most of the time, but at WDW that is starting to slide.


How does this relate to the topic at hand?

There are satisfied customers utilizing the new system. There are times it works for the customer's benefit. It achieves it's goal of keeping guests longer in the park and reduces park hopping.

However, this system has numerous faults and flaws. It has been around long enough that most of the issues should have been solved. The system has been mandated use on a test basis for TSMM recently leaving off-site, locals, and non MDE guests out of luck. It is not uncommon to lose the ability to use MDE for hours on end. It requires further diligence on the guests part to be able to prove they have a line reservation to "eye-rolling" CMs. It can ruin parts of or all of someone's vacation.

If you have never been impacted negatively by this system, I envy you. It does impact people negatively. Negative experiences reduce or eliminate loyalty. At what point does the pendulum swing?

As I mention at the top, we are FANS. FANatical about Disney. We are a few of the people that actually use WDW parks regularly. We put up with more, (obviously, since I still have 1 more WDW vacation on the horizon). However, if portions of FANs decide to wait,skip, or change there themed entertainment based on the hassles of the new system, isn't that telling you and Disney something? Here on this board, with the number of those dissatisfied with NGE doesn't that say something?

When I get back from my upcoming visit, I will have even more personal anecdotal experience with MM+. You can bet that good or bad, I will communicate that on these forums. So far, it started off bad, no line reservations for 7DMT because I was looking at 59 days before my trip. "You should have been on at 12:01am 60 days out." Under the old system, I just grabbed my FP the day I visited the park. I wouldn't be locked out of a whole week unless the attraction was actually down.

Anyway, sources for my numbers and info come from the White House Office of Consumer Affairs, American Express, Marketing Metrics, and several books about the importance of customer satisfaction.

Have a great day.

*1023*

 

[BigThunderMatt]

On-site guests with passes in hand who have gotten their FPs at 60-days out will have a distinct advantage.

Which is one of the few areas Disney had the right mindset with. Although it was poorly executed. Prior to the implementation of FP+, everyone was on a fairly even playing field when it came to FastPass. From a business perspective though, this offered little incentive to stay on-site with Disney. Universal has offered free Unlimited Express Pass to their on-site guests for some time now, but the only real advantage to staying on-property were the Extra Magic Hours. And considering it only got you one additional ungodly early hour in the morning (as early as 6-7 a.m. during the peak season at MK) or three (now two) additional hours at the end of a night it wasn't really much of a perk.

Now on-site guests have a distinct advantage. Yes, you do not have to stay on-site to use the "free" FastPass+ system, however, if you stay on-site you have the ability to book your FP+ entitlements 60 days in advance of your visit for the length of your stay. So in this fashion they can still market it as "free" but in reality you're paying a premium to get the most out of the system. So essentially they've created a tiered pay system for FastPass without marketing it as such.

 

[hopemax]

That's amazing... I knew you had to get to the parks early to get a Fastpass and it might be for an unsuitable time, but I had no idea that *entire days* were booked up weeks in advance for things like 7 Dwarfs, that's awful.

So there's literally no way anyone who makes a plan at a couple of weeks notice or less can get a Fastpass. So basically they might as well have blocked the ability to use Fastpass at all for certain guests.

I see what they've done... When it comes to getting on the big headliners, Fastpass has become a resort guest exclusive perk in all but name. They've managed to do just what Universal does, make it something only hotel guests can get the most from, without being seen in public to be denying anyone access. Clever, Disney, very clever.

Worse than that, even resort guests with stays shorter than 5-7 days are reporting having an ever increasing level of difficulty getting what they want when their FP+ booking window opens. So you could say it's becoming a perk for those coming for at least a week or more, staying on-site. If you were a resort guest staying for less than a week, or can't book 60 days out, how would that make you feel? Eager to return? Some would say, "you're just rewarding your 'best' customers." I call it a recipe for making your attendance a function of the capacity of a handful of attractions, as people begin to see what they can't get and just stay away. Just imagine what a calendar for Frozen Maelstrom will look like. WDW will promote the heck of it, people booking vacations will be denied a FP+ if they aren't staying on-site, for X amount of days. It's a very dangerous game WDW is playing. They may not make the majority of their money from people with short stays, short notice trips, or off-site, but WDW can't afford to LOSE that business either. Not when trying to justify the money they spent on this.

 

[prberk]

I think this is what I find most frustrating. The whole discussion over who likes the system vs who doesn't like it basically comes down to your personality. If you're the type who likes to plan every minute of your vacation, you're going to like MM+. If you like being more relaxed, more spontaneous, you're going to have more issues with it. That's fine and understandable.

What irks me is that you really don't have any choice. In the past you could sort of throw a Disney day together last minute and it would be pretty decent. Maybe not as perfect as if you had planned it in advance, but still a pretty good time. The system was flexible enough that it could work for everyone regardless of how you liked to vacation.

But now, if you don't plan weeks and even months in advance, your day will be significantly downgraded - to the point that for the first time I'm questioning the value of my admission pass and AP. (And I did plan ahead - I just didn't really enjoy being tied strictly to the plan. But when I tried to make tweaks or mix things up, I got SLAMMED.)

You have said this better than I have in my other posts. I do not mind planning, and I often did it for WDW; BUT there needs to be an option to be spontaneous. In many ways they have taken that away or made a serious penalty for it. That is my problem. It just feels like they took a good idea and drove it into the ground.

How many of you have ever been the resident "Disney expert" in your group, who planned the vacation for everyone, including ADRs or priority seating, especially involving their own input, before you left; but later came to incur some irritation (and maybe downright wrath) from your group for trying to stick to the plan during the vacation? They were on vacation, and maybe saw something that they had not known about -- or just plain got tired of walking -- and wanted to change the plan. They knew that they were paying good money, but they also knew that they were tired, and maybe needed to rest -- or go to the pool for a respite from the amazing plan that you had made with them before they came. What happened if you pushed them to stick to the plan? I know for me that was the point where it stopped going well for me. I had to recognize their feelings and limitations.

This is nothing more than an automated version of that scenario. The inflexibility is the problem, especially for a company in the resort businee and built on a reputation of spectacular customer service.

 

[JillC LI]

If you're the type who likes to plan every minute of your vacation, you're going to like MM+. If you like being more relaxed, more spontaneous, you're going to have more issues with it.

I'm a planner. But I dislike the concept of FP+. Not because I have to book attractions 60 days in advance but because I am limited in what ride combinations and what time slots I am permitted to book.

 

[BroganMc]

How many of you have ever been the resident "Disney expert" in your group, who planned the vacation for everyone, including ADRs or priority seating, especially involving their own input, before you left; but later came to incur some irritation (and maybe downright wrath) from your group for trying to stick to the plan during the vacation? They were on vacation, and maybe saw something that they had not known about -- or just plain got tired of walking -- and wanted to change the plan. They knew that they were paying good money, but they also knew that they were tired, and maybe needed to rest -- or go to the pool for a respite from the amazing plan that you had made with them before they came. What happened if you pushed them to stick to the plan? I know for me that was the point where it stopped going well for me. I had to recognize their feelings and limitations.

This is nothing more than an automated version of that scenario. The inflexibility is the problem, especially for a company in the resort businee and built on a reputation of spectacular customer service.

Ding ding ding ding.... We have a winner!

I am the so-called "Disney Expert" when it comes to my family. I invested thousands of dollars buying DVC just so I could "treat" my family to vacations there. I loved the experience so much from 2001-2006 I just had to share it. I've purchased park tickets for the kids (just dropped $1000 on some non-expiring passes for two of them). I've paid for airfare. I've even paid to taken on Disney Cruises.

My last trip to Disney I took everyone's old legacy park passes down just so I could exchange them to newer RFIDs and add them to our MDE account. I manage everyone's Disney account. That's 16 people. They look to me to plan the perfect family vacation for them in Disney World. They want to see the magic I see.

When you have that many people, even if you are a laid back tour guide and intentionally allow freedom and self exploration, you still need some sort of plan. So you think about what parks to visit, which rides most people want to go on (even if you can't go on them yourself), where to eat, where the bathrooms are, who gets cranky at night, who gets hot, who gets up late, etc. You try to plan for every contingency possible so as many people as possible can have a good time. You may even draw up a pretty little itinerary to hang on the fridge at your resort so people know what park to visit that day or where a meal will be or when fireworks are.

At first they applaud you for all your hard work and planning. Sure they resent that you talk about it months in advance just to get an idea what they might like to do. ("I'm not ready to even think about that. Stop asking me if I want to ride Splash Mountain in December.") But then they get to the park and find that plan you sweated over just doesn't fit their "in the moment" expectations. They get tired, hungry or just plain cranky. They have a meltdown and you try to keep your patience while you figure out a way to make it better for them. Halfway through the experience you swear to yourself you will never ever be so foolish as to do this again. But you gotta salvage something from it. You have too much invested in it. So maybe you cobble something together. It's not as good as you expected. And you know you'll hear "Why didn't we do that?" when you get home. At least once per trip someone will accuse you of being the "Vacation Dictator" or an incompetent fool who doesn't really care that they have a good time.

Disney used to be my partner in rearranging plans on the fly and keeping this herd of cats happy. Now they are just one more "Vacation Dictator" making it harder for me to be flexible.

I am going into this NYE trip with a lot of dread. It is the busiest time of year I have ever gone. I know it's difficult for me to find my way. Herding 16 people through a complicated FP+ system and having to deal with all the construction in the parks is stressing me out.

 

[BroganMc]

Worse than that, even resort guests with stays shorter than 5-7 days are reporting having an ever increasing level of difficulty getting what they want when their FP+ booking window opens. So you could say it's becoming a perk for those coming for at least a week or more, staying on-site. If you were a resort guest staying for less than a week, or can't book 60 days out, how would that make you feel? Eager to return? Some would say, "you're just rewarding your 'best' customers." I call it a recipe for making your attendance a function of the capacity of a handful of attractions, as people begin to see what they can't get and just stay away. Just imagine what a calendar for Frozen Maelstrom will look like. WDW will promote the heck of it, people booking vacations will be denied a FP+ if they aren't staying on-site, for X amount of days. It's a very dangerous game WDW is playing. They may not make the majority of their money from people with short stays, short notice trips, or off-site, but WDW can't afford to LOSE that business either. Not when trying to justify the money they spent on this.

Exactly. I must have misunderstood your previous postings. I thought you were advocating that my experiences in Sep/Oct were an anomaly and should be discounted.

For the record I was staying offsite 6 days and onsite 15 days (though in 3 different resorts). I didn't get my new AP until a month before my stay so I was limited to the 30 day booking window. Surprised the heck out of me not to be able to easily get a 7DMT FP+. It only showed up sporadically toward the end of my trip and then late at night for 2 people. I cannot ride it myself so my family rode it Standby during EMH one night. There was actually less availability for things in Sep/Oct than I experienced the previous mega busy NYE. And it wasn't just the Headliners. Things like POTC would book out during my stay giving only random late day slots. As the Columbus Day crowd grew, availability plummeted for everything. I grew to hate the system.

I swear something has changed with it the last few months. I read another person's experiences on a different board who visited 4 times under FP+. Once during the early trials last Fall, again in Spring, then early summer and lastly in Autumn. That person reported the experience got significantly worse since August. Availability and flexibility just evaporated. Something is wrong.

One suggestion is there is greater demand and more people using FP+. another is they aren't staging the release of FP+ smartly. Allowing people with longer stays the ability to book an entire stay 60+ days in advance is begging for FP+ squatting.