Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

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Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Now were talkin!

Our course my AP perspective is largely derived from the west coast DL experience and what I read. I wasn't claiming that all AP's are the same, but trying to make an overall point how ticketing strategy radically changes how the park is experienced. I'm glad that this is spurring lots of great discussion about how the pace of your experience and motivation play a role in the Disney Show.

Keep it up! I'm learning alot!
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Agreed, anyone who thinks that every bulb should always be lit up is a bit off their rocker.
Well' it Should not happen TOO often because people do expect a quality experience from Disney. But if one or two bulbs are out I won't throw a fit.:animwink:
 

MKCP 1985

Well-Known Member
Our course my AP perspective is largely derived from the west coast DL experience and what I read. I wasn't claiming that all AP's are the same, but trying to make an overall point how ticketing strategy radically changes how the park is experienced. I'm glad that this is spurring lots of great discussion about how the pace of your experience and motivation play a role in the Disney Show.

Keep it up!

Speaking of those who point out the burned out light bulbs, it is funny how many people my age look back to what they remember from the "Weekly Readers" that used to be given to us in school, thinking that the 1970s Walt Disney World publicity machine used to tell us every light bulb is checked overnight and every park attraction is given fresh paint and/or dusted from park close to park open.

Even if that was never done, and even if the little magazine didn't even say those words exactly, that's what some of us remember. :lookaroun Needless to say, that created an expectation of a standard that would be hard if not impossible to meet!

As for the other part - the pacing - I agree that when you got a ticket book (yes, I am old enough to remember the ticket books) your goal was to try and use up all the tickets since "that's what you paid for" but if it came down to using an A ticket up to ride the trolly up Main Street or buying an extra E ticket to explore the oceans with Captain Nemo, we'd buy a few extra D and E tickets! And all of that, of course, meant pushing the limits each day to see and do as much as possible. And that routine has proven to be hard to break away from!
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Our course my AP perspective is largely derived from the west coast DL experience and what I read. I wasn't claiming that all AP's are the same, but trying to make an overall point how ticketing strategy radically changes how the park is experienced. I'm glad that this is spurring lots of great discussion about how the pace of your experience and motivation play a role in the Disney Show.

Keep it up!

I sometimes think there are 2 WDW's. There is the one that exists to validate the D&G crowd and the one that exists for everyone else.

I have lost count of the number of visits I've made. It's easily triple digit numbers. I have never not enjoyed being there.

The only argument that makes sense to me that those that feel WDW is not what it used to be relates to demographics. And I am specifically refering to the number of tourists that WDW attracts. WDW is a victim of it's own success. And the larger the crowds get the more homogenized the experience becomes for the average person. It is much more difficult to maintain a unique, magical and quality experience the larger a business becomes. It effects everything from food to the quality of CM's available for hire. There is only so much quality available. It's a problem that effects every corner of modern life, not just WDW.

That said, there is a solution I have found. The more I visit the more I have learned to work around the crowds. That is the advantage of frequent visits and research. Hence, I enjoy the place as much now as I ever have.

I also don't have the same expectations. To expect that every CM or dining experience or attraction would have the same magic for me that it did when seeing the place as a child and with a child's perspective is unreasonable. It seems to me that many D&G folks want that childhood experience and perspective of the magic back. And, as I've said before, there is not enough pixie dust in the world to make that happen. The problem is not with TWDC. They can only do so much.
 

SirGoofy

Member
It seems to me that many D&G folks want that childhood experience and perspective of the magic back. And, as I've said before, there is not enough pixie dust in the world to make that happen. The problem is not with TWDC. They can only do so much.

BS JT. We want QUALITY back. They could easily bring the quality of the food back up to where it was 10 years ago. They could easily refurb classic attractions more often to where their greatness shines through, instead of them being in disrepair. They could easily not have every store have homogenized merchandise.

There may only be so much they can do, but they certainly could be doing a lot more than they are now.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
BS JT. We want QUALITY back. They could easily bring the quality of the food back up to where it was 10 years ago. They could easily refurb classic attractions more often to where their greatness shines through, instead of them being in disrepair. They could easily not have every store have homogenized merchandise.

There may only be so much they can do, but they certainly could be doing a lot more than they are now.

They could, but the masses insist on cheaper prices. Just look what happens on these boards everytime they raise soda prices 25 cents. There are plenty of quality dining experiences available, you just have to find them. I don't think too many CS establishments are good candidates.

I couldn't care less about merchandise. But from what I have seen there are items of every price point at WDW. And if it isn't in the parks, it's available on line. Merchandise........really? Buying stuff in a theme park has always seemed like a rip off to me anyway. Even when I was a kid. But I've never been the type to want a t-shirt that says, "I went to this place so now I'm validated" either. :shrug:

As for what they could be doing. I'd like to see Liberty Square refurbished with an emphasis on HM and HoP, maybe a nice Luxo interactive on Pixar Place, a popular new talent show at DHS that actually allows guest to participate, smooth track in Space Mountain, a new Fantasyland overlay and stuff like that. But of course the walmarting strategy won't let all that happen as we know.
 

SirGoofy

Member
They could, but the masses insist on cheaper prices. Just look what happens on these boards everytime they raise soda prices 25 cents. There are plenty of quality dining experiences available, you just have to find them. I don't think too many CS establishments are good candidates.

But what about people, like myself, that can only afford a table service once a week while I'm there? I don't think it's fair that I have to suffer through horrible cheeseburgers for all my other meals.

I couldn't care less about merchandise. But from what I have seen there are items of every price point at WDW. And if it isn't in the parks, it's available on line. Merchandise........really? Buying stuff in a theme park has always seemed like a rip off to me anyway. Even when I was a kid. But I've never been the type to want a t-shirt that says, "I went to this place so now I'm validated" either. :shrug:

Well some of us enjoy buying T-shirts where we go, and we also would like for them to be of high quality, especially at the prices we pay. I bought an Animal Kingdom 10th anniversary shirt a year ago, and the logo is already starting to come off of it. And then there is the fact that many classic rides don't even have any merchandise for them, and instead we have shops filled with pins and Hannah Montana t-shirts.

As for what they could be doing. I'd like to see Liberty Square refurbished with an emphasis on HM and HoP, maybe a nice Luxo interactive on Pixar Place, a popular new talent show at DHS that actually allows guest to participate, smooth track in Space Mountain, a new Fantasyland overlay and stuff like that. But of course the walmarting strategy won't let all that happen as we know.

I'm ignoring the Space Mountain comment, because you have complained about the barebones refurb we are getting. AIE only happened because Disney barely paid for the thing. And in no way shape or form is Fantasyland a go.

And my problem is, how long will these newly refurbed attractions go before their next touch ups? Years? Decades? because we all know, if they shut down ONE ride, it's going to ruin someone's vacation.:rolleyes:
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
They could, but the masses insist on cheaper prices. Just look what happens on these boards everytime they raise soda prices 25 cents. There are plenty of quality dining experiences available, you just have to find them. I don't think too many CS establishments are good candidates.

I couldn't care less about merchandise. But from what I have seen there are items of every price point at WDW. And if it isn't in the parks, it's available on line. Merchandise........really? Buying stuff in a theme park has always seemed like a rip off to me anyway. Even when I was a kid. But I've never been the type to want a t-shirt that says, "I went to this place so now I'm validated" either. :shrug:

As for what they could be doing. I'd like to see Liberty Square refurbished with an emphasis on HM and HoP, maybe a nice Luxo interactive on Pixar Place, a popular new talent show at DHS that actually allows guest to participate, smooth track in Space Mountain, a new Fantasyland overlay and stuff like that. But of course the walmarting strategy won't let all that happen as we know.
What Sir Goofy is refering to is that almost every shop in WDW was unique and sold different merchandise. There were things you could only get in Tink's Treasures, PotC, etc. While that is still true it is only to the smallest degree. Now going into the Emporium is no different than walking in to Mouse Gears or WOD.
 

whylightbulb

Well-Known Member
Speaking of those who point out the burned out light bulbs...thinking that the 1970s Walt Disney World publicity machine used to tell us every light bulb is checked overnight...

Needless to say, that created an expectation of a standard that would be hard if not impossible to meet!
The Main Street bulbs checklist/matrix is not a myth. Maintenance used to change out each bulb before their rated hours expired. This practice was one victim of the operations cutbacks in the late 90's.

As a kid I remember walking down Main Street every time I visited to see if I could find a burnt out bulb. I never once could. Do I care as much as an adult? Not really. I will say however that the burnt bulb expeditions of my childhood help to shape my respect and love for Disney. It was but one more example of how Disney was different...special.

How much more would this affect children of today? You expect to see burnt bulbs at your local movie theater marquee or your local mall. But at Disney you are supposed to be in a "magical" world. I'm not even going to get into the other intrusions that have become so common place at WDW recently. But add them to the Main Street bulbs and you can see the slippery slope WDW is on.

Of course if you want to see an example of the standards we used to enjoy you can go to Tokyo. They still to this day maintain the quality and "magic" Disney used to be famous for. You can argue all you want that the Tokyo parks see a higher per cap spending and attendance: maybe that is partially because they have upheld the Disney legacy from the beginning. Maybe they have never snuffed at the idea of ensuring a guest never sees a burnt out light bulb.
 

SirGoofy

Member
What Sir Goofy is refering to is that almost every shop in WDW was unique and sold different merchandise. There were things you could only get in Tink's Treasures, PotC, etc. While that is still true it is only to the smallest degree. Now going into the Emporium is no different than walking in to Mouse Gears or WOD.

Exactly.:wave:
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
But what about people, like myself, that can only afford a table service once a week while I'm there? I don't think it's fair that I have to suffer through horrible cheeseburgers for all my other meals.

Again, the unreasonable demand for cheaper prices has really had negative consequences throughout our society. "You get what you pay for" and "there are no free lunches" are not cliche's. EVERYONE is about to learn that lesson!!!! It's not a problem unique to WDW.



Well some of us enjoy buying T-shirts where we go, and we also would like for them to be of high quality, especially at the prices we pay. I bought an Animal Kingdom 10th anniversary shirt a year ago, and the logo is already starting to come off of it. And then there is the fact that many classic rides don't even have any merchandise for them, and instead we have shops filled with pins and Hannah Montana t-shirts.

As I said....."meh" :shrug:

I'm ignoring the Space Mountain comment, because you have complained about the barebones refurb we are getting. AIE only happened because Disney barely paid for the thing. And in no way shape or form is Fantasyland a go.

SM is still a mystery in the long term. I just found out 2 days ago they are building track that can handle new generation ride vehicles. HM/HoP/LS refurb was not a "go" either at one point. Where was the praise from the D&G crowd when they were green lighted? The "I want it now!" :cry: pathology is pandemic.

And my problem is, how long will these newly refurbed attractions go before their next touch ups? Years? Decades? because we all know, if they shut down ONE ride, it's going to ruin someone's vacation.:rolleyes:

It seems to me they are doing refurbs. I agree with you though that management has to stop worrrying about closing attractions for refurbs. There are tons of options on property.
 

SirGoofy

Member
LS?

Anyway, I was ecstatic for the HM refurb. The place was falling apart before it went down. As for HoP it looks like it has turned out beautifully, but we knew we were getting a refurb once a new President was elected.

As for Space, so what if it's getting track that can eventually hold new cars. how long will will have to wait for that? if it's getting the new track, it should have the new cars on day.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
LS?

Anyway, I was ecstatic for the HM refurb. The place was falling apart before it went down. As for HoP it looks like it has turned out beautifully, but we knew we were getting a refurb once a new President was elected.

As for Space, so what if it's getting track that can eventually hold new cars. how long will will have to wait for that? if it's getting the new track, it should have the new cars on day.

....1

It's easy to "monday morning quarterback". I think I like phased refurbs. They should do phased refurbs now.

PS- LS = Liberty Square
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
This is a long post, but I think it's worth reading if someone wants to be part of a level-headed discussion. ;)

I have lost count of the number of visits I've made. It's easily triple digit numbers. I have never not enjoyed being there.

The only argument that makes sense to me that those that feel WDW is not what it used to be relates to demographics. And I am specifically refering to the number of tourists that WDW attracts. WDW is a victim of it's own success. And the larger the crowds get the more homogenized the experience becomes for the average person. It is much more difficult to maintain a unique, magical and quality experience the larger a business becomes. It effects everything from food to the quality of CM's available for hire. There is only so much quality available. It's a problem that effects every corner of modern life, not just WDW.

It's a bit of both arguments: the demographics have changed (mostly Disney's own fault), but the company also isn't investing as it should (Wall Street has said so and has downgraded Disney stock to "hold"). I personally try to be very balanced about WDW, because even though I always enjoy my days there (I go frequently on weekends), as an "insider," I see a lot of the behind-the-scenes nonsense that has stopped several fantastic projects from coming to the MK.

I agree that WDW has become a victim of its own success, but the marketing is screwed up right now, too: Guests feel it's their "right" to enjoy no lines, private time with the characters, and non-stop pixie dust, because that's how the place is advertised.

For business reasons I don't have time to explain, the mid-80s through mid-90s are generally considered WDW's heyday; the place was a cultural force that represented the pinnacle of American vacationing. WDW regularly added new attractions to its parks and remained immensely profitable. The Company marketed the full experience—the MK, Epcot Center, D-MGM, golf, parasailing, etc.—to attract the broadest demographic possible. WDW ads in high-end magazines like Condé Nast focused on Epcot, golf, and PI; newspaper ads generally targeted families. Broadcast network TV specials featured the latest, greatest attractions at the parks, increasing the "drool factor" among potential Guests.

Of course, it didn't hurt that the Studio was cranking out one high-quality hit after another, thereby increasing Disney's brand value and recognition among the general public. From "Roger Rabbit" to "Pretty Woman," and "The Little Mermaid" to "The Lion King," Disney's perceived value was at an all-time high since Walt's death. The public equated Disney with high quality and full experiences.

Fast forward to today. The parks aren't the trash heaps some jaded online bloggers claim, but they're also not as well maintained as they should be. The Marketing Machine pushes the MK, only the MK, and nothing but the MK, meaning that the park is swamped with Guests trying to get the magical experience falsely promised to them in the commercials. People-eating E-tickets have been closed with no replacements, meaning that those same Guests spend most of the day wandering from one overcrowded queue to another; and Disney has added enough seasonal events to effectively obliterate any true off season at the MK, which used to be utilized for routine maintenance. Add the resort's poor management, and even worse WDP&R management, which mindlessly blocked all necessary infrastructure upgrades back when profits were high (before the recession), and the MK is particularly in a precarious situation right now for Ops and Guest satisfaction.

Even worse, the studio hasn't turned out a well-regarded hit in a while, degrading people's perception of the WDC. Proof: Wall Street analysts have downgraded Disney stock to "hold," reasoning that the company's perceived brand value is dangerously low. Some analysts have even pointed out that the company hasn't presented any long-term growth plans for WDW to attract more Guests when the tourism industry picks up again. People equate Disney with Hannah Montana and the Jonas Brothers—great franchises for the Disney Channel, but bad for long-term profits, especially when the company once gave us "Beauty and the Beast." The public has become very savvy about Pixar vs. Disney, and Disney's CGI films have not been able to ride the Pixar coattails to success. I truly hope "The Princess and the Frog" changes this downhill slide!

Anyway, let me make this clear: I don't think WDW is falling apart. I don't think it's hopelessly stale or worthless, and I don't agree with the stupid fanboy mindset that the MK isn't worth visiting. There's still a lot of good stuff in WDW, and I enjoy it! BUT to maintain its long-term value, leadership is going to have to stop relying on the resort's nostalgic past, and start investing in it again. The MK cannot support its current Guest levels; what happens when the economy improves and attendance goes even higher? There is unfortunately a glut of character-centric attractions instead of original ideas, and we've already seen what happens when a character has been overused past its relevancy date (Stitch's Dance Party=epic fail). Epcot has two underused FW pavilions, creating unrealistic waits for the other FW attractions. DHS is finally getting the attention it has needed for about ten years, and DAK will need to add another land within the next ten years.

That's the unbiased fact. I still enjoy the place—heck, I personally don't agree with the online notion that DL effectively trumps the MK—but I do acknowledge that the resort needs a huge investment to maintain long-term growth and profitability. Frankly, I'd like to see it get new management too, all the way up to Rasulo, because the exec leadership needs to understand how the entertainment business works. That's what WDW is: entertainment. It's not the meaning of life; it's not the most important thing in America; it's not another business that can be run by spreadsheets. It's an entertainment-based resort for families who want to escape everyday life, and the only way to maintain the "Magic"—whatever the @!#$ that is considered to be right now—is to take creative risks.
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
....1

It's easy to "monday morning quarterback". I think I like phased refurbs. They should do phased refurbs now.

PS- LS = Liberty Square
I think I have told you this, but no...:brick::lol: This phased thing mystifies me. Wouldn't closing it and reopening it coast more money? Isn't it better to get it done in one swoop?:rolleyes:

But, as always...Capacity and ruining vacations take over.:snore:
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
This is a long post, but I think it's worth reading if someone wants to be part of a level-headed discussion. ;)



It's a bit of both arguments: the demographics have changed (mostly Disney's own fault), but the company also isn't investing as it should (Wall Street has said so and has downgraded Disney stock to "hold"). I personally try to be very balanced about WDW, because even though I always enjoy my days there (I go frequently on weekends), as a CM, I see a lot of the behind-the-scenes nonsense that has stopped several fantastic projects from coming to the MK.

I agree that WDW has become a victim of its own success, but the marketing is screwed up right now, too: Guests feel it's their "right" to enjoy no lines, private time with the characters, and non-stop pixie dust, because that's how the place is advertised.

For business reasons I don't have time to explain, the mid-80s through mid-90s are generally considered WDW's heyday; the place was a cultural force that represented the pinnacle of American vacationing. WDW regularly added new attractions to its parks and remained immensely profitable. The Company marketed the full experience—the MK, Epcot Center, D-MGM, golf, parasailing, etc.—to attract the broadest demographic possible. WDW ads in high-end magazines like Condé Nast focused on Epcot, golf, and PI; newspaper ads generally targeted families. Broadcast network TV specials featured the latest, greatest attractions at the parks, increasing the "drool factor" among potential Guests.

Of course, it didn't hurt that the Studio was cranking out one high-quality hit after another, thereby increasing Disney's brand value and recognition among the general public. From "Roger Rabbit" to "Pretty Woman," and "The Little Mermaid" to "The Lion King," Disney's perceived value was at an all-time high since Walt's death. The public equated Disney with high quality and full experiences.

Fast forward to today. The parks aren't the trash heaps some jaded online bloggers claim, but they're also not as well maintained as they should be. The Marketing Machine pushes the MK, only the MK, and nothing but the MK, meaning that the park is swamped with Guests trying to get the magical experience falsely promised to them in the commercials. People-eating E-tickets have been closed with no replacements, meaning that those same Guests spend most of the day wandering from one overcrowded queue to another; and Disney has added enough seasonal events to effectively obliterate any true off season at the MK, which used to be utilized for routine maintenance. Add the resort's poor management, and even worse WDP&R management, which mindlessly blocked all necessary infrastructure upgrades back when profits were high (before the recession), and the MK is particularly in a precarious situation right now for Ops and Guest satisfaction.

Even worse, the studio hasn't turned out a well-regarded hit in a while, degrading people's perception of the WDC. Proof: Wall Street analysts have downgraded Disney stock to "hold," reasoning that the company's perceived brand value is dangerously low. Some analysts have even pointed out that the company hasn't presented any long-term growth plans for WDW to attract more Guest when the tourism industry picks up again. People equate Disney with Hannah Montana and the Jonas Brothers—great franchises for the Disney Channel, but bad for long-term profits, especially when the company once gave us "Beauty and the Beast." The public has become very savvy about Pixar vs. Disney, and Disney's CGI films have not been able to ride the Pixar coattails to success. I truly hope "The Princess and the Frog" changes this downhill slide!

Anyway, let me make this clear: I don't think WDW is falling apart. I don't think it's hopelessly stale or worthless, and I don't agree with the stupid fanboy mindset that the MK isn't worth visiting. There's still a lot of good stuff in WDW, and I enjoy it! BUT to maintain its long-term value, leadership is going to have to stop relying on the resort's nostalgic past, and start investing in it again. The MK cannot support its current Guest levels; what happens when the economy improves and attendance goes even higher? There is unfortunately a glut of character-centric attractions instead of original ideas, and we've already seen what happens when a character has been overused past its relevancy date (Stitch's Dance Party=epic fail). Epcot has two underused FW pavilions, creating unrealistic waits for the other FW attractions. DHS is finally getting the attention it has needed for about ten years, and DAK will need to add another land within the next ten years.

That's the unbiased fact. I still enjoy the place—heck, I personally don't agree with the online notion that DL effectively trumps the MK—but I do acknowledge that the resort needs a huge investment to maintain long-term growth and profitability. Frankly, I'd like to see it get new management too, all the way up to Rasulo, because the exec leadership needs to understand how the entertainment business works. That's what WDW is: entertainment. It's not the meaning of life; it's not the most important thing in America; it's not another business that can be run by spreadsheets. It's an entertainment-based resort for families who want to escape everyday life, and the only way to maintain the "Magic"—whatever the @!#$ that is considered to be right now—is to take creative risks.
Tough post to follow!:lol: Well said, Tirian.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
The Main Street bulbs checklist/matrix is not a myth. Maintenance used to change out each bulb before their rated hours expired. This practice was one victim of the operations cutbacks in the late 90's.

As a kid I remember walking down Main Street every time I visited to see if I could find a burnt out bulb. I never once could. Do I care as much as an adult? Not really. I will say however that the burnt bulb expeditions of my childhood help to shape my respect and love for Disney. It was but one more example of how Disney was different...special.

How much more would this affect children of today? You expect to see burnt bulbs at your local movie theater marquee or your local mall. But at Disney you are supposed to be in a "magical" world. I'm not even going to get into the other intrusions that have become so common place at WDW recently. But add them to the Main Street bulbs and you can see the slippery slope WDW is on.

Of course if you want to see an example of the standards we used to enjoy you can go to Tokyo. They still to this day maintain the quality and "magic" Disney used to be famous for. You can argue all you want that the Tokyo parks see a higher per cap spending and attendance: maybe that is partially because they have upheld the Disney legacy from the beginning. Maybe they have never snuffed at the idea of ensuring a guest never sees a burnt out light bulb.

Yep, this isn't saying that a bulb never did burn out, but the Company used to care more about the product they presented to the public. But this slide isn't just in WDW: I can't think of one branch of the WDC that matches the standards set by Walt himself, or the late 80s/early 90s Disney Renaissance.

To be honest, the WDC's current problems seem to be plaguing every entertainment company except Pixar. Companies simply aren't taking the creative risks they used to, and they also don't care as much about the presentation.* There's a reason people have been rediscovering Hollywood films from the 30s through the early 90s (TCM recently announced its viewership is at an all-time high), and a reason that modern movies generally get low ratings: because the entertainment industry at large just seems to spit things out now. :brick:

*People who do care, like Peter Jackson, Pixar, and others, have maintained some degree of independence.
 
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