Early 90's Light Rail/Trolley System Proposal for WDW

Master Yoda

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
flynnibus said:
FT wilderness should not be seen as a model for anything..

And no trains aren't cheap - but everything put into the water is multiplied in costs right from the get go. And the great capacity through size, speed, and reduced cycle times all further multiply the gap.

Seven Seas Lagoon boats between the resorts aren't even in the same league when talking about wide area transportation network. They only need to traverse less than 1.5 miles at the worst case for a transit leg and do so with relatively low volume. They are a 'nice to have' - not the backbone of the transportation network.
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As evident when the monorail breaks down.
 
tl77

tl77

Well-Known Member
flynnibus said:
FT wilderness should not be seen as a model for anything..

And no trains aren't cheap - but everything put into the water is multiplied in costs right from the get go. And the great capacity through size, speed, and reduced cycle times all further multiply the gap.

Seven Seas Lagoon boats between the resorts aren't even in the same league when talking about wide area transportation network. They only need to traverse less than 1.5 miles at the worst case for a transit leg and do so with relatively low volume. They are a 'nice to have' - not the backbone of the transportation network.
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Ok, but you're talking in pretty generalized terms, I'm talking about what was specifically proposed in the attached documents that the OP posted on page 1. The trolley system in those blue prints is quite large and would have been rather expensive to build and maintain, but putting extra boats in the existing water ways is what was done instead of building this proposed trolley system... that and using buses
 
danlb_2000

danlb_2000

Premium Member
PeterAlt said:
A couple of months ago, I posted an observation I made. I saw trollies in the concept art for Disney Springs. I also read a rumor that trollies were being considered in the DHS facelift. Naturally, I put these two unrelated things together (hey, that's what I do!) and speculated that a trolly from Disney Springs to DHS may be on the design table. Seeing these real trolly plans from 1992, I just want to revisit that speculation. Knowing how far I got myself into with the monorails, I'm not going down that path again here, but anything's possible... So, who knows?
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The plans in the SFWMD permits for Disney Springs show no evidence of this.
 
PeterAlt

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Okay, so we find out that an extensive streetcar system for WDW had been in advanced planning stages in 1992 before ultimately getting the axed. Now there's news (dated from just a few months ago) coming from out west concern DLR. Neighboring cities Garden Grove and Santa Ana plan on joining Anaheim's already-announced street car project. The Anaheim project aims to build a trolly system (called ARC) from DLR to a new transit center (called ARTIC). Now, neighboring city Garden Grove wants to build a trolly from ARC's terminus at the Orange County Convention Center to their border with Santa Ana. Santa Ana plans on building their own street car system independently. Phase 2 of the Santa Ana system would end at the city line they share with Garden Grove and connect with the Garden Grove system. When it's all said and done, the three cities' systems would be continuous and have a direct link to Disneyland. This won't be the first trolly for DLR. Recently, a Red Trolley (my new avatar) attraction opened at DCA, and let's not forget the one on Main Street! Below is an article I found about the three systems as well as a map.

image.jpg


SANTA ANA – Imagine a streetcar that would allow you to get off a Metrolink train in Santa Ana, maybe take care of some business in the Civic Center, and then head to the Anaheim Resort for the evening.

Or, would take you from your home in Garden Grove to your job at Disneyland or west Santa Ana.

Three cities – Santa Ana, Garden Grove and Anaheim – are moving ahead with plans to develop a fixed guideway to connect people, jobs and entertainment destinations.

Santa Ana and Garden Grove, in cooperation with the Orange County Transportation Authority (OCTA), are proposing to build a system covering the four miles between the Santa Ana Regional Transportation Center and a proposed transportation center in Garden Grove. The cost is estimated at $180 million for a first phase ending at Raitt Street, to $250 million for a system that would run to Garden Grove.

In Santa Ana, the project would help connect people with government offices, courthouses, downtown businesses and the Artists Village.

The city foresees a system with streetcars running on rails embedded in the pavement, powered by electricity running through an overhead line, picking up passengers at regular stops – as many as 25 – about every 15 minutes from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m., with fares comparable to those for buses.

Plans call for a north/south corridor along busy Harbor Boulevard to Garden Grove's hotel district and the Anaheim Resort area, while a 3.5-mile Anaheim leg would connect the resort area and Platinum Triangle to the planned Anaheim Regional Transportation Intermodal Center (ARTIC), just off Katella Avenue east of the 57 freeway. Key destinations include the Disneyland Resort, Anaheim Convention Center, Angel Stadium and Honda Center.

Anaheim has issued a request for proposals from consultants interested in working on what's called the Anaheim Rapid Connection (ARC) Fixed-Guideway Project. Consultants, who face a Monday deadline to turn in their proposals, would prepare environmental documents, prepare applications for federal funding and coordinate preliminary engineering.

Santa Ana Mayor Miguel Pulido, who sits on the OCTA board, last week led a study session before the Santa Ana City Council on the project.

When the OCTA board meets on Monday, he plans to make a similar presentation and to provide several recommendations, he told the council. His city, he said, has both the need, and the potential ridership. He said seven of the most heavily used OCTA routes pass through Santa Ana, while a fixed guideway that would connect central Orange County would relieve traffic along I-5, benefiting commuters from cities north and south.

"What we're talking about is a circle that would connect Central County," he said. "If you travel around the world and look at transit systems, these circles are very important because that's the way, often, that transit works. People are able to get on at different points and go in diverse directions and connect."

He said he wants to see an initial operating system roll out in a first phase of the Santa Ana-Garden Grove portion of the project, connecting the city's train station, via Santa Ana Boulevard, with Raitt Street. Ultimately the line would run along the Pacific Electric right of way to a proposed Garden Grove regional transit facility, around Harbor Boulevard and Westminster Avenue. The city is still obtaining input on a preferred route.

A key, he said, is getting a $180 million initial operating system in place.

"I believe there is a possibility that we could begin with that," he said. "Often when you begin with something, it's easier to go back to Washington and say 'Let's add to the system' than to say 'We don't have a system' and we need money from the get-go."

The city has confronted some controversy over the project. A 2010 Orange County grand jury report, whose findings were contested by the city, criticized its selection of Cordoba Corp. for a $4.85 million contract on the project. Last week, the City Council agreed to spend an extra $322,491 for environmental analysis for the project after a sub-consultant to Cordoba failed to deliver environmental documents on time.

Santa Ana is exploring various options for funding, including federal and local sources.

Pulido said that the use of Measure M funds, rather than federal funds, would result in the project moving along more quickly, with construction beginning as early as 2015 versus 2017, and operations beginning in 2017, about 2 1/2 years ahead of a federally funded project.

He said that he will request a funding strategy both for construction and operation and maintenance.

"I believe that ultimately OCTA needs to own and operate the system," he said. "We will assist in development and in defining the routes, but this has to grow, and the way it grows is through OCTA."

The city is looking at two alternative routes. One would start at the Santa Ana Regional Transportation Center, with a downtown segment generally centered on a 4th Street and Santa Ana Boulevard loop. The second also starts at the train station, generally centered on a 5th Street and Civic Center Drive loop. Alternatives include such steps as improved bus service.

City officials expect the public to be able to see environmental studies by late summer, with the Santa Ana and Garden Grove city councils expected to choose a preferred alternative in the fall.

Some commuters question the need for the project, saying that bus service to and from the train station is adequate.

Others, like Woodland Hills lawyer Richard Kahanowitch, who rides the train to Santa Ana several times a year, say it would fit into their train-taking lifestyles. The lawyer, who was toting stacks of legal documents, said that getting to the courthouse can be a challenge.

"I'd get right on that puppy. It would be perfect for me," he said. "My clients wouldn't have to schlep me over there."

The streetcar project is an outgrowth of the voter-approved extension of Measure M, which was approved in 2006. Through its half-cent sales tax, it included funds to develop transit extensions to the Metrolink corridor, known as Project S funds.

OCTA is working with the cities to ensure that their work meets state and federal requirements, and also to identify funding sources, including local, state and federal funds.

About $23 million in Project S and additional funds have been awarded to Anaheim, while about $11 million has been awarded to the Santa Ana/Garden Grove team. The cities have also contributed, bring the totals to $25 million in local investment for Anaheim, and $12 million for Santa Ana.

Santa Ana expects its environmental report to be completed later this year.

Anaheim expects its environmental work to be done in 2014. It's anticipating an analysis of alternatives and selection of a preferred alternative by fall, with preliminary engineering in early 2014. The project could be designed and built by 2018.

Timelines for Garden Grove aren't as developed.

"The possible extension of the systems to connect along Harbor Boulevard is very preliminary," said Laura Scheper, an OCTA spokeswoman. "However, OCTA is supportive of providing that regional connection, and there is potential in the future for the two systems to connect along Harbor Boulevard."
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Texas84

Texas84

Well-Known Member
PeterAlt said:
Okay, so we find out that an extensive streetcar system for WDW had been in advanced planning stages in 1992 before ultimately getting the axed. Now there's news (dated from just a few months ago) coming from out west concern DLR. Neighboring cities Garden Grove and Santa Ana plan on joining Anaheim's already-announced street car project. The Anaheim project aims to build a trolly system (called ARC) from DLR to a new transit center (called ARTIC). Now, neighboring city Garden Grove wants to build a trolly from ARC's terminus at the Orange County Convention Center to their border with Santa Ana. Santa Ana plans on building their own street car system independently. Phase 2 of the Santa Ana system would end at the city line they share with Garden Grove and connect with the Garden Grove system. When it's all said and done, the three cities' systems would be continuous and have a direct link to Disneyland. This won't be the first trolly for DLR. Recently, a Red Trolley (my new avatar) attraction opened at DCA, and let's not forget the one on Main Street! Below is an article I found about the three systems as well as a map.

View attachment 41264
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Saw the ARTIC over Labor Day weekend. The half marathon ran past it. Still under construction but looks impressive.

Yeah, the Red Trolley is a blast. And even provides real transportation within DCA.
 
PeterAlt

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Texas84 said:
Saw the ARTIC over Labor Day weekend. The half marathon ran past it. Still under construction but looks impressive.

Yeah, the Red Trolley is a blast. And even provides real transportation within DCA.
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I've been trying to figure out ARC's exact alignment on Google Earth and I'm really confused. There are existing tracks much closer to DLR than near Angels Stadium. Why are they building ARCTIC way out there?! Also, all that land that has been cleared west of the stadium... Who owns that and what's going in there? Does Disney own the cleared land north of Garden Walk that stretches from DLR east to the freeway?
 
lazyboy97o

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
PeterAlt said:
I've been trying to figure out ARC's exact alignment on Google Earth and I'm really confused. There are existing tracks much closer to DLR than near Angels Stadium. Why are they building ARCTIC way out there?! Also, all that land that has been cleared west of the stadium... Who owns that and what's going in there? Does Disney own the cleared land north of Garden Walk that stretches from DLR east to the freeway?
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ARTIC is placed along the tracks that are used for passenger travel. Property ownership is public record.
 
PeterAlt

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
The land west of The stadium I was talking about is being developed for housing. Google Street View is more recent and shows apartment complexes being built throughout that area. I guess that is good for people who work in the area to be closer to their jobs. And with the trolley, they don't need a car to get to work.
 

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