Congress Questions Next Gen

[Genie of the Lamp]

It would also be nice to be able to decide what park I want to go to when I wake up in the morning, and not when I wake up 60 days before I leave, before I go to work, and hustle to the computer to reserve Space Mountain for 9:45a. And, what happens if I don't get that FP+. Maybe all they have is 5:30p. But I had dinner reservations at Via Napoli at 5:45p. Shoot, I guess no Space Mountain this trip. It is all too much planning. Too much effort.

Pretty soon Disney will expect us all to turn into Bob Saget/Danny Tanner like mode and nitpick literally every second,minute,etc. of our WDW trip (however that ep.was good and is one of my all time fav shows! ).

 

[xdan0920]

FP+ is a component of MyMagic+. In order to make FP+ selections in days in advance, you first must sign up for MyMagic+. Fail to agree to the terms of MyMagic+ and you will not receive FP+.

I'll post something later to clarify my position. In essence, my particular "beef" is not with profiling/marketing, it is with tracking. Once we accept MyMagic+, I do not believe we will have the option to "opt out" of tracking.

From Disney's letter to Markey, it seems like, if you use the card instead of the band, you are effectively opting out of the active tracking, while still having access to MyMagic+.

 

[ParentsOf4]

so how is that being punished? are you getting butterbeer spit on you by the camel in adventureland if you don't have MyMagic+?

Without FP+, WDW “guests” are forced to use the Standby attractions for all attractions. It’s common for Standby lines such as TSM and Soarin’ to exceed 120 minutes. The latest information from Disney suggests “guests” will receive 3 FP+ per day. Thus, guests who fail to participate in MyMagic+ can be expected to stand in line an extra 3 or more hours per day. If that’s not punishment at WDW, I don’t know what is.

 

[djlaosc]

While there may be a correlation between those two events (having a magicband and getting better FP options) I doubt there is a direct causation between those two. Who knows, they could use that to help upsell the band 'Buy the band, get one additional FP+ reservation per day!' - but I doubt it.

Well, the information that has been given has alleviated two of my concerns...

1. I do not have to wear a MagicBand that will leave a wonderful suntan line on my arm (we don't wear watches in the parks because of this)
2. I do not have to attach a credit card to my account - I can continue to pay in cash (is it just me, or is part of the "holiday experience" if you are going to another country not going to get the new currency/new currency smell (very distinct for US Dollars) and looking at the coins that you get?). It also means that I do not need to keep a running total on paper to know how much we are spending.

Of course, now the concern (to go with all of the rest of them) is whether I will be "punished" somehow by not getting a MagicBand or by not attaching my credit card, but there is no way to know whether this will happen until the system is fully operational and we get first-hand reports (or unless Disney release that information publically)

 

[flynnibus]

FP+ is a component of MyMagic+. In order to make FP+ selections in days in advance, you first must sign up for MyMagic+. Fail to agree to the terms of MyMagic+ and you will not receive FP+.

I'll post something later to clarify my position. In essence, my particular "beef" is not with profiling/marketing, it is with tracking. Once we accept MyMagic+, I do not believe we will have the option to "opt out" of tracking.

So you now have a problem with the ability the parks have had since FP and KTTW were originally introduced? How have you survived all these years?

 

[rioriz]

Disagree.

We are not assuming FP will be phased out, Disney has said it will be. And the freak outs remain. Many people do not want to book ride reservations months or weeks in advance. It sucks a lot of the fun out of "vacation". It makes it more like a job. The tracking aspect is just one thing people are upset about. There are plenty of other reasons to have "a total freak out".

Can you send me a link where Disney has said it will be phased out? Even if so the FP+ will be a flexible in ones ability to change their times throughout the day multiple times. You can skip out on your early reservation if you can't make it and pick up another. As I understand, from what I just read, if I drop my 10am for a 12am my 10am instantly becomes available for someone else. You do not have to plan weeks in advanced as you say as you can pick up FP+ the day of and throughout.

A total assumption but if FP is phased out, Disney will release FP+ tickets the day of as they do now except you don't have to physically be in the park to get them. I can get up openeing time of MK and grab a SM FP+ from my phone w/o even leaving my bed. That is much more convenient than it ever was. Again this, and everyone elses opinons, are nothing but assumptions at this point in time.

It is of my opinion that it only "sucks" the fun out of the vacation if you allow it to. Disney is not making anyone "freak out", those who do are are choosing to do it on their own. I and many others are choosing not to at this time and allowing the process to take hold and make a judgment call from there on.

 

[GrumpyFan]

Without FP+, WDW “guests” are forced to use the Standby attractions for all attractions. It’s common for Standby lines such as TSM and Soarin’ to exceed 120 minutes. The latest information from Disney suggests “guests” will receive 3 FP+ per day. Thus, guests who fail to participate in MyMagic+ can be expected to stand in line an extra 3 or more hours per day. If that’s not punishment at WDW, I don’t know what is.

Granted, nobody likes standing in long lines, but I have a hard time calling this "punishment". Disney isn't "punishing" you, any more than they are when you choose not to buy a soft drink or purchase a souvenir, you are simply choosing a less than premium experience. The hard part in this is that they are removing something that was a feature that was free, well, it was included as part of your admission, now they're just attaching a price to it.

 

[ParentsOf4]

From Disney's letter to Markey, it seems like, if you use the card instead of the band, you are effectively opting out of the active tracking, while still having access to MyMagic+.

The cards are simply a less effective means of tracking you. With the cards, Disney will simply be unable to track you with long-range readers.

As I mentioned before, everyone is assuming the technology is stagnant. I am completely confident that improved technology will be used within 10-20 years. Disney's ability to track you will only improve over time.

 

[flynnibus]

Can you send me a link where Disney has said it will be phased out? Even if so the FP+ will be a flexible in ones ability to change their times throughout the day multiple times. You can skip out on your early reservation if you can't make it and pick up another. As I understand, from what I just read, if I drop my 10am for a 12am my 10am instantly becomes available for someone else. You do not have to plan weeks in advanced as you say as you can pick up FP+ the day of and throughout.

The arguement used by some against that flexibility is they believe there will be no worthwhile FPs available to switch to at that point. An assumption.. for which none of us can definitiately state if it will be true or not. There are ways Disney can avoid it.. but we don't know if they will.

I think it's clear from Disney's various pieces of info.. the original 'walk up, paper FP' as you know it now is going away when this new FP+ system is fully functional.

How much FP+ availability will there be on day of, or for rescheduling is still indeterminable by us.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Granted, nobody likes standing in long lines, but I have a hard time calling this "punishment". Disney isn't "punishing" you, any more than they are when you choose not to buy a soft drink or purchase a souvenir, you are simply choosing a less than premium experience. The hard part in this is that they are removing something that was a feature that was free, well, it was included as part of your admission, now they're just attaching a price to it.

If Disney offered me a ticket discount because I opted for the "lesser" experience, then I would be comfortable with what you suggest. Instead, I am always being charged for a "premium" experience but only receiving it if I agree to let Disney track me in one form or another. Disney didn't need to track me with FP. Why do they need to track me with FP+?

 

[ParentsOf4]

Let me start by stating that, whether we like it or not, Disney has the “right” to collect certain information about us. Disney can learn through legal means our gender, age, marital status, address, income bracket, etc. Furthermore, Disney has the “right” to collect information about our transactions with Disney, including park admission since this is part of a financial transaction. For practical reasons (so that FP can be evenly distributed), I personally accept that if we choose to use FP, Disney can collect that information too. Disney has the “right” to collect all this information and more, cross-reference it, and use it for legal business purposes. Hopefully, if we so choose, Disney won’t share this information with others but I even give companies leeway on this since, IMHO, these companies “own” information legally collected about us.

This type of information has been collected long before the information age by, for example, banking institutions. In general, any time we consciously interact with a system, the other party has the “right” to collect information about that transaction. IMHO, both parties should have equal access to information exchanged during a cognizant transaction and the Supreme Court has effectively ruled this to be the case, which is why the Financial Privacy Act was passed in the 1970s.

However, the “opt out” options provided by MyMagic+ do not prevent Disney from tracking us, only who might receive information collected by Disney during that tracking. As suggested by Iger’s letter, Disney intends to collect “location information” no matter which options we select. Disney indicates that we can be “tracked” with either the MagicBands or the card, although we can be tracked more effectively (i.e. with the long-range readers) if we use MagicBands.

Where I believe Disney crosses the line is in collecting this “location information” on individuals without those people actively engaging Disney’s system. When Disney follows our individual movements without our conscious knowledge, Disney is effectively stalking us. We have the “right” not to be stalked and there are laws in place to protect us against stalking.

As stated in Judge Samuel Alito in last year’s United States v. Jones Supreme Court ruling:

In the pre-computer age, the greatest protections of privacy were neither constitutional nor statutory, but practical. Traditional surveillance for any extended period of time was difficult and costly and therefore rarely undertaken. The surveillance at issue in this case — constant monitoring of the location of a vehicle for four weeks — would have required a large team of agents, multiple vehicles, and perhaps aerial assistance. Only an investigation of unusual importance could have justified such an expenditure of law enforcement resources. Devices like the one used in the present case, however, make long-term monitoring relatively easy and cheap. In circumstances involving dramatic technological change, the best solution to privacy concerns may be legislative.

In the past, our privacy was protected as a matter of practicality. It was impractical for government agencies and private corporations to follow us unless there was a reason for it. However, technology has reached the point where it has become cost-effective to "stalk" all of us all the time. I don’t want to be stalked. I want Disney to stop stalking us.

If a complete stranger followed us and our families for a week, 24 hours-per-day, we’d have a reasonable case of bringing up stalking charges against that person. Disney is a complete stranger and has the technology to track our movements throughout our entire vacation. Although Disney certainly would fail to meet the “credible threat” criteria necessary for aggravated stalking, a (weak) case could be made that Disney is engaged in simple stalking, usually a misdemeanor. The fact that Disney arm-twists us into accepting their “stalking terms” with the threat of having to wait in longer lines if we don’t agree, suggests we are not truly volunteering to be stalked by Disney. Legally, I am certain the case would be thrown out but, hopefully, this makes it a bit more apparent Disney intends to engage in a behavior that might end up landing an individual in jail. There are legal ways individuals can be tracked but, as suggested in Alito’s opinion, laws have not kept pace with technology.

Furthermore, I am greatly disturbed that Disney (with parents’ “permission” of course) intends to collect similar information on children. There are laws protecting children but, as I’ve suggested above and in other posts, this “permission” is a joke. If we fail to grant Disney permission to stalk our children, we will be “punished” at a minimum by not receiving FP+, standing in line many more hours each day as a result. We are putting ourselves and our families at significant disadvantages if we don’t “volunteer” to participate in MyMagic+. At what point does “volunteer” become coercion?

Beyond those points, Disney, like most corporations, tries to disclose as little possible when parents provide their “permission”. I strongly suspect more parents would “opt out” if they knew and understood the full extent of Disney’s MyMagic+ policies. I still believe most would give their permission but an appreciable percentage would be scared off by the invasive nature of MyMagic+. Disney does not want to scare these “guests” and so intentionally does not fully disclose, their disclosure agreements containing only the vaguest notions of Disney’s intentions.

Rep. Markey’s letter was an attempt to get Disney to fully disclose. Despite Iger’s protest to the contrary, Iger’s letter clearly contained new information that previously was unavailable from any official Disney source.

 

[rioriz]

Correct and maybe it is just me, but I see no reason going back and forth over an assumption of what may or may not happen in the near or distant future. I will be visiting the World in a couple months and plan on enjoying my time there regardless if I have a band on my arm or not. In the future if things become too restrictive for my taste I will deal with it at that point in time.

Thanks for your input in the conversation!

 

[GrumpyFan]

If Disney offered me a ticket discount because I opted for the "lesser" experience, then I would be comfortable with what you suggest. Instead, I am always being charged for a "premium" experience but only receiving it if I agree to let Disney track me in one form or another. Disney didn't need to track me with FP. Why do they need to track me with FP+?

Luxury/Convenience comes at a price. Every other business does this, and we've accepted it. The airlines charge more for a premium (first class) experience, or to carry more luggage. The rental car company charges more for a bigger (luxury) car. You want a room with a bigger bed, you have to pay. Why is Disney any different? I still don't get the "tracking" argument though. What are you concerned with about their ability to "track" you?

 

[GrumpyFan]

There seem to be a lot of reckless assumptions being made about what Disney plans to do with the data they might be collecting. Does anybody have anything that would show some proof or an indication that it might be used in a harmful way? Or that they have done something harmful with data they've previously collected?

 

[flynnibus]

However, the “opt out” options provided by MyMagic+ do not prevent Disney from tracking us, only who might receive information collected by Disney during that tracking. As suggested by Iger’s letter, Disney intends to collect “location information” no matter which options we select. Disney indicates that we can be “tracked” with either the MagicBands or the card, although we can be tracked more effectively (i.e. with the long-range readers) if we use MagicBands.

Since you are dealing with a topic that includes both historical data collection, capturing a personal ID in data points, location services, AND people's fears of being explicitly followed...

I suggest your usage of the term 'tracked' is ambiguous and causing more confusion because it can be interpreted as part of location following and/or simply historical data collection.

What you are really talking about here with this data collection you are going on about is more accurately described as PROFILING. That makes it clear you are not talking about location services or other 'find me' type activities.

Using descriptive terminology that avoids confusion would help you in communicating your point.

 

[rioriz]

Per the tracking argument, I "get it" if people are coming from an idealogical standpoint. They probably have the same viewpoint about the gov't and other agencies when it comes ot privacy.

However, I view Disney as small potatoes compared to others and really do not feel their tracking me from SM to BTMR as a big deal. If they saw I bought a Slushee and sent me a coupon for two for one thinking I may like it, I see no problem in that. When I go to the grocery store they do the same thing when they spit out coupons for items I may buy in the future.

When I leave WDW I may get extra advertisement in the mail enticing me to come back sooner than I plan but that it way too harmless for me to worry about.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Correct and maybe it is just me, but I see no reason going back and forth over an assumption of what may or may not happen in the near or distant future. I will be visiting the World in a couple months and plan on enjoying my time there regardless if I have a band on my arm or not. In the future if things become too restrictive for my taste I will deal with it at that point in time.

Thanks for your input in the conversation!

Each person needs to make this decision individually but, as I suggested here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/congress-questions-next-gen.858932/page-18#post-5297534

Each person needs the information necessary to make an informed decision.

You are talking about allowing a private corporation to track your movements. Once you accept that premise, where do you draw your line? Is it OK if you are tracked in a store, at a mall, at school, on public roads, in your hotel room? Where do you draw your line in the sand?

I've suggested that with WDW, the precedent has been set. Eventually, we can be tracked anytime anywhere.

 

[GrumpyFan]

I suggest your usage of the term 'tracked' is ambiguous and causing more confusion because it can be interpreted as part of location following and/or simply historical data collection.

What you are really talking about here with this data collection you are going on about is more accurately described as PROFILING. That makes it clear you are not talking about location services or other 'find me' type activities.

Regardless, Disney (and others such as Retailers, Google, Apple, Restaurants, etc.) have tracked and profiled us for years without the use of RFID technology. What's the difference?

 

[dcibrando]

Each person needs to make this decision individually but, as I suggested here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/congress-questions-next-gen.858932/page-18#post-5297534

Each person needs the information necessary to make an informed decision.

You are talking about allowing a private corporation to track your movements. Once you accept that premise, where do you draw your line? Is it OK if you are tracked in a store, at a mall, at school, on public roads, in your hotel room? Where do you draw your line in the sand?

I've suggested that with WDW, the precedent has been set. Eventually, we can be tracked anytime anywhere.

ONLY within Disney property - and I'm having a hard time understanding why it WOULD be a problem for Disney to know when I'm at DTD or at my resort.

your cell phone, gps, government, etc. track you everywhere and we don't know all the detail behind it

 

[flynnibus]

Regardless, Disney (and others such as Retailers, Google, Apple, Restaurants, etc.) have tracked and profiled us for years without the use of RFID technology. What's the difference?

I don't disagree - but the problem is magnified when people confuse each other with misleading points or ambiguous posts. The 'telephone game' is horrible on forums.