Avatar Land may be duplicated (and few more observations from the TV special)

[No Name]

I think it would be foolish of them to build a second Pandora. And here's why.

The Avatar IP holds less value today than do many of Disney's own franchises. Now, yes, I understand and fully agree that a land does not need a popular IP to be successful. The common thing I read is "nobody knows Song of the South but they love Splash Mountain," and that is very true, and may very well apply to Avatar Land.

But the key difference is, Disney doesn't have to give up any of their merchandise sales from Splash Mountain. They keep 100% of what they make. On the other hand, and while I don't know the percentage, they'll have to pay James Cameron a royalty fee on sales of Avatar merchandise.

So, if the benefit of using the Avatar IP doesn't make up for the royalty fee, it's not worth it. They'd be better off cloning Star Wars Land or Cars Land, or using any of their other IP or original ideas.

Every resort has rejected Avatar Land, in large part for that reason. Unless there is some contractual benefit to Disney building a second one, that we don't know about, I don't expect to see it happen. In fact, I'd be beyond shocked if it did. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[DDLand]

Interesting.

This is the first time we've heard about other lands in a while.

From the 2013 10k:
In September 2011, the Company announced an agreement with James Cameron’s Lightstorm Entertainment and Fox Filmed Entertainment for the exclusive global theme park rights to create themed lands based on the AVATAR franchise with the first land planned for Disney’s Animal Kingdom. Scheduled to open in 2017, the AVATAR-inspired land will be a part of an expansion in Disney's Animal Kingdom, which will include new entertainment and nighttime experiences.

This stands in stark contrast with the most recent report:



The Company has a long-term agreement for the exclusive global theme park rights to build AVATAR-themed lands and plans to open Pandora - The World of AVATAR at Disney’s Animal Kingdom in summer 2017.

Notice the language has been changed; they chose to drop the word "first." Now they seem to be reconsidering. DLP and WDS are so desperate for good new draws that they have to get the best IP in there, even if that isn't a Disney draw.

Here are some non inflation adjusted grosses of AVATAR versus SWTFA in key Disneyland Paris markets:

France) $175,615,305/$88,527,046

Germany) $162,333,962/$111,351,219

Spain) $109,992,746/$36,296,516

Denmark) $22,889,076/$11,987,128

Sweden)$22,187,194/$21,346,653

Italy) $83,498,193/$28,214,141

United Kingdom)$150,025,197/$163,599,922

In most cases Avatar vanquished Force Awakens by significant margins, and even in the U.K. were roughly in line. It's performance in markets like these (and in Latin America and Asia) that kept Avatar comfortably on top of the worldwide box office even as TFA made strong showings in domestic ticket sales.


There's no doubt which IP I'd choose for a French theme park that draws guests from all over Southern and Western Europe.

If Shanghai gets everest or any other major WDW attraction then there major hypocrites. If i remember correctly the Government allowed Disney to build in Shanghai if the majority of the attractions where original. They can't have it both ways i'm afraid.

The Shanghai government would be most concerned with competition from other Disney Resorts that could theoretically steal attendance from Shanghai. I think of all the Resorts a Mainland Chinese Guest was going to visit, Walt Disney World would be lowest on the list with Hong Kong, SoCal, and Paris much more likely.

Everest remains a fairly exclusive attraction for most guest.

 

[lazyboy97o]

couldnt disney do it at paris now that the ownership shifted so wd owns 73% versus the 49% in 2014

While The Walt Disney Company may now be the majority owner of Euro Disney SCA, they are still separate companies and Euro Disney SCA would have to pay for the new, very, very, very expensive land.

If Shanghai gets everest or any other major WDW attraction then there major hypocrites. If i remember correctly the Government allowed Disney to build in Shanghai if the majority of the attractions where original. They can't have it both ways i'm afraid.

Everest was on the Master Plan as an expansion for Shanghai Disneyland.

The Chinese have a long running problem with Tibet so I doubt you will see Everest at Shanghai.

The government doesn't care, to them Tibet is China.

 

[MisterPenguin]

The government doesn't care, to them Tibet is China.

True. Their beef is when outsiders call that part of China "Tibet" as if it were distinct from China.

 

[truecoat]

I think it would be foolish of them to build a second Pandora. And here's why.

The Avatar IP holds less value today than do many of Disney's own franchises. Now, yes, I understand and fully agree that a land does not need a popular IP to be successful. The common thing I read is "nobody knows Song of the South but they love Splash Mountain," and that is very true, and may very well apply to Avatar Land.

But the key difference is, Disney doesn't have to give up any of their merchandise sales from Splash Mountain. They keep 100% of what they make. On the other hand, and while I don't know the percentage, they'll have to pay James Cameron a royalty fee on sales of Avatar merchandise.

So, if the benefit of using the Avatar IP doesn't make up for the royalty fee, it's not worth it. They'd be better off cloning Star Wars Land or Cars Land, or using any of their other IP or original ideas.

Every resort has rejected Avatar Land, in large part for that reason. Unless there is some contractual benefit to Disney building a second one, that we don't know about, I don't expect to see it happen. In fact, I'd be beyond shocked if it did. It just doesn't make sense.

True but execs like success and successful things. Having 4 more Avatar movies coming every 2 years starting next year is additional advertising. I know a lot of people keep saying how they didn't like Avatar or the story but don't bet against James Cameron. He's been one of the most successful and innovative directors of all time.

1984 Terminator #21 that year
1986 Aliens #7 that year
1989 The Abyss #24 that year
1991 Terminator 2 #1 that year
1994 True Lies #3 that year
1997 Titanic #1 and #1 all time until....
2009 Avatar #1 and now #1 all time
2018 Avatar 2 All of these will be filmed at the same time.
2020 Avatar 3
2022 Avatar 4
2023 Avatar 5

Then again, even if they started building Avatar right now in Paris it would be lucky to open by 2023.

 

[Mike S]

Then again, even if they started building Avatar right now in Paris it would be lucky to open by 2023.

More like 2020. Ours started actual construction sometime in 2014. It was announced 3 years early.

 

[truecoat]

More like 2020. Ours started actual construction sometime in 2014. It was announced 3 years early.

A little sarcasm.

 

[BD-Anaheim]

Animal Kingdom is perhaps the most "unique" Disney theme park across the globe, there is little to no duplication of its attractions or its mission. It's an incredibly ambitious park. I do hope it remains as such, as AVATAR and the nighttime attractions are breathing new life into an already great experience.

 

[Stripes]

If they're indeed considering building another Pandora, I think that speaks volumes.

 

[Thebolt]

The most interesting thing about this thread is how it sums up the change of attitude to Avatar Land. The initial launch was generally met with "why are they making this?". The overall response now is "get you hands off our treasure"...
Opinion has really turned around on this project.

 

[No Name]

True but execs like success and successful things. Having 4 more Avatar movies coming every 2 years starting next year is additional advertising. I know a lot of people keep saying how they didn't like Avatar or the story but don't bet against James Cameron. He's been one of the most successful and innovative directors of all time.

1984 Terminator #21 that year
1986 Aliens #7 that year
1989 The Abyss #24 that year
1991 Terminator 2 #1 that year
1994 True Lies #3 that year
1997 Titanic #1 and #1 all time until....
2009 Avatar #1 and now #1 all time
2018 Avatar 2 All of these will be filmed at the same time.
2020 Avatar 3
2022 Avatar 4
2023 Avatar 5

Then again, even if they started building Avatar right now in Paris it would be lucky to open by 2023.

Box office numbers are wonderful to look at, but they sure aren't the most important thing. Lots of people watched Gone with the Wind too.

Current and lasting popularity is more important, and Avatar does not have much of it. One could argue it will resurrect once the sequels come out, but I don't see it. If Avatar's popularity died so quickly after the first massively-successful, highest-grossing movie, what's to say it won't die even sooner after the next movie?

Merchandise sales is another big factor in the theme park business. Numbers are hard to find in this area. But Avatar has sold around $200 million or so in merchandise, to date. Note that this all includes licensed merchandise. In comparison, Frozen sold $5 billion in merchandise in just one year. Star Wars did around that too. Cars and Toy Story are big, and consistent, sellers as well. Generic things like dragons and unicorns do more in sales than blue cat people.

Overall, it just hasn't left a pop-culture impact (apart from a 3D fad - again, concerning). Lots of people saw the movie, but it's no longer popular and it's no longer driving sales. The quality of the land may be superb, but I see absolutely zero reason, zero reason, why Disney would choose to copy it over other quality lands like Star Wars Land or Cars Land, or really anything else, especially given that they have to pay a royalty fee. Zero reason. Zilch. I don't know how to explain it any further. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[DDLand]

True but execs like success and successful things. Having 4 more Avatar movies coming every 2 years starting next year is additional advertising. I know a lot of people keep saying how they didn't like Avatar or the story but don't bet against James Cameron. He's been one of the most successful and innovative directors of all time.

1984 Terminator #21 that year
1986 Aliens #7 that year
1989 The Abyss #24 that year
1991 Terminator 2 #1 that year
1994 True Lies #3 that year
1997 Titanic #1 and #1 all time until....
2009 Avatar #1 and now #1 all time
2018 Avatar 2 All of these will be filmed at the same time.
2020 Avatar 3
2022 Avatar 4
2023 Avatar 5

Then again, even if they started building Avatar right now in Paris it would be lucky to open by 2023.

This cracks me up. Despite his obvious success, I don't think I like any of those movies... I guess he's not my style!

Box office numbers are wonderful to look at, but they sure aren't the most important thing. Lots of people watched Gone with the Wind too.

Current and lasting popularity is more important, and Avatar does not have much of it. One could argue it will resurrect once the sequels come out, but I don't see it. If Avatar's popularity died so quickly after the first massively-successful, highest-grossing movie, what's to say it won't die even sooner after the next movie?

Merchandise sales is another big factor in the theme park business. Numbers are hard to find in this area. But Avatar has sold around $200 million or so in merchandise, to date. Note that this all includes licensed merchandise. In comparison, Frozen sold $5 billion in merchandise in just one year. Star Wars did around that too. Cars and Toy Story are big, and consistent, sellers as well. Generic things like dragons and unicorns do more in sales than blue cat people.

Overall, it just hasn't left a pop-culture impact (apart from a 3D fad - again, concerning). Lots of people saw the movie, but it's no longer popular and it's no longer driving sales. The quality of the land may be superb, but I see absolutely zero reason, zero reason, why Disney would choose to copy it over other quality lands like Star Wars Land or Cars Land, or really anything else, especially given that they have to pay a royalty fee. Zero reason. Zilch. I don't know how to explain it any further. It just doesn't make sense.

While I agree with your point for certain Resort properties, I don't think it holds true globally. Take Walt Disney Studios Park for example. This isn't Walt Disney World or Disneyland. This is a park in a different market with a whole different set of challenges.

Let's see some of the factors that would lead to AvatarLand there:
1) AvatarLand centers around the night. It is designed to draw guests into the evening combating the label of "half day park." Walt Disney Studios is in the same boat as DAK (even though I adore DAK and don't think they're in the same league) with the need to draw guests into the evening. AvatarLand could work wonders by drawing guest stays out longer into the evening boosting guest spending and keeping them from straining Parc Disneyland.
2) WDS is a barren wasteland of "soundstages" (warehouses) that aren't beautiful, stunning, or even decorated. Sure you can point to exceptions -the Rat area is quite impressive- but overall things are pretty ugly. This Park needs diversity of landscape, water, and green. Some variety. While Star Wars looks like it will have rock work and green, Avatar brings with it an intense focus on Nature (well sort of) that is much needed.
3) Both Avatar attractions are indoors meaning rain or weather related shut downs are unnecessary and the land can operated regardless of condition. Compare that to RSRs with a lengthy outdoor segment, and logistically it makes some sense to focus on Avatar.
4) Avatar was a major cultural phenomenon in Europe, and even though you can nitpick on its lasting effects, made huge waves that not even TFA could reach.
5) The attractions and tech are already designed and they're supposed to be impressive.

That's not to say they will build it there, and not in Shanghai or Hong Kong, but there is reasonable logic in building another AvatarLand.

Not that I like it in Disney's Animal Kingdom.

 

[DDLand]

(1) Good point.

(2) Walt Disney Studios seems in better condition then its sister park, Disney's Hollywood Studios (Shivers), and Star Wars seems to be the magic solution to DHS. Though it is a bit odd that Paris isnt focused on nature at all especially considering Disneynature headquarters is also located in paris.

(3) So is Star Wars Land.

(4) Star wars has a lot more content currently and has proven its popularity.

(5) Star Wars Land as well. :3

I think you missed the point.

This isn't to say they will build in x spot, but an analysis for why in fact they could utilize this land in the future. Just because there are strengths with the other lands doesn't negate the strengths in Avatar.

I will challenge the notion that Avatar and TFA are on the same footing in Europe. It appears Avatar truly blew TFA out of the water. You're also too quick to dismiss the benefits of bringing an almost jungle like setting to a park like WDS with place making that is far worse than even DHS (Classic Hollywood Streets, Echo Lake, and massive Toy Story land that dwarfs a Playland help to further soften the park).

Though I suspect that your mind is already pretty well made up. I take it cloning Avatar would rub you the wrong way.

 

[Next Big Thing]

Shanghai or Hong Kong would make the absolute most sense if it was to ever be duplicated in any form. AVATAR was the highest grossing movie of all-time in China and it is getting a sit-down production of the TORUK Cirque show due to the popularity in China.

 

[Robbiemoo]

I don't understand the Avatarland or Star Wars land argument. We haven't seen either yet yet but both lands look very different from the art and description of the attractions.

If Walt Disney world has both I could see both ending in other resorts down the line and they could always change the design of Star Wars land to another planet to avoid any similarities

 

[DisneyJayL]

Would make sense... you don't spend millions of dollars to develop something only to use it once. Be it ride systems (Indiana Jones/Dinosaurs, Test Track/Radiator Springs Racers), complete rides (Soarin', Seven Dwarves, Little Mermaid), or complete lands (Toy Story Land, Wizarding World of Harry Potter, Star Wars Land). Heck, even the ride system for Na'vi River Journey (from the rumors we've been hearing) appears to be the same system that Pirates in Shanghai uses. Cloning the area would/could also at least partially offset the overruns the Animal Kingdom version is seeing.

Yet, we don't have Carsland in Florida.

 

[Clamman73]

Yet, we don't have Carsland in Florida.

I-4?

 

[Coaster Lover]

Yet, we don't have Carsland in Florida.

No, but the ride system for all three rides in Carsland were either based on preexisting ride systems (Test Track to Radiator Springs) or are being used in upcoming Disney rides. Just because the complete package wasn't cloned doesn't mean lots of money wasn't saved by reusing the ride systems.

 

[Magic Feather]

No, but the ride system for all three rides in Carsland were either based on preexisting ride systems (Test Track to Radiator Springs) or are being used in upcoming Disney rides. Just because the complete package wasn't cloned doesn't mean lots of money wasn't saved by reusing the ride systems.

To be honest, I cant think of one ride system that isn't in multiple places. Reusing ride systems greatly helps with R&D, and poses no real integrity challenges, unless the system if forced onto the ride.

 

[DisneyJayL]

I-4?

That's the new Tomorrowland Race Track, right?