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Monorail Accident
- Thread starter PatNSCT
- Start date
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
If Monorail Pink was indeed trying to back onto the spur then the safety systems would have been off.
Keep calm everyone. This is a tragedy, and many of you who know a great deal about the monorail are providing the rest of us with a wealth of knowledge about how the system works. For that, we are grateful. All of us are also sympathetic to the victim and his family. I am sure he was an ambitious young man with a bright life ahead of him. To find answers, the only place we can really go is to Church, and even that is not completely satisfying during such times. Time heals, but there will always be a scar.
As far as what's happened is concerned, it is therapeutic, but rarely accurate, to place blame or engage in too much speculation. After all, here is all we really know for sure right now:
1. The crash occurred very late somewhere near the TTC, and a young operator died.
2. None of us really knows what caused it.
3. The monorail, which has transported millions of people safely for nearly 4 decades, is an incredibly safe system. Boats and busses would certainly not be any safer.
4. The accident may have several possible causes, including.
a. Electrical problem.
b. Software failure, including a possible virus.
c. Driver or other error, including a possible medical problem (seizure, heart, diabetes, etc . . .), all of which is entirely speculative.
d. Lightning strike.
e. Any number of causes not yet considered.
5. The monorail will run again, if it isn't already.
6. Being afraid of riding the monorail is understandable due to the immediate shock, but continuing to live in such fear from here on out is not healthy. Walt, and all of the Disney animated heroes, would never let fear rule them. Many people were afraid to fly or go into tall buildings after 9/11, but the vast majority got over it.
7. Eventually we will have more answers, and the problem will be cured in competent fashion. Hopefully we will have at least another 38 years before another such accident happens.
This is all we really know, so don't become panicky with the speculative hysteria. Answers will come, and safety will return. What I truly do not understand: With this tragedy, wars in the middle east, a nut shooting missiles in North Korea, a lingering economic downturn, and an unexplained murder of a Hall of Fame quarterback, why is CNN spending at least half of its coverage on the all too predictable premature death of Michael Jackson?
As the castle show said, for a brief while, Disney World is the place where a nightmare came true. Shock and sadness are understandable, but don't let the anger or the fear take over. Pray for the victim and his family, and use the emotion productively if at all possible.
I am sure all of our hearts go out to everyone involved. Just try not to type in something that you may eventually regret.
As far as what's happened is concerned, it is therapeutic, but rarely accurate, to place blame or engage in too much speculation. After all, here is all we really know for sure right now:
1. The crash occurred very late somewhere near the TTC, and a young operator died.
2. None of us really knows what caused it.
3. The monorail, which has transported millions of people safely for nearly 4 decades, is an incredibly safe system. Boats and busses would certainly not be any safer.
4. The accident may have several possible causes, including.
a. Electrical problem.
b. Software failure, including a possible virus.
c. Driver or other error, including a possible medical problem (seizure, heart, diabetes, etc . . .), all of which is entirely speculative.
d. Lightning strike.
e. Any number of causes not yet considered.
5. The monorail will run again, if it isn't already.
6. Being afraid of riding the monorail is understandable due to the immediate shock, but continuing to live in such fear from here on out is not healthy. Walt, and all of the Disney animated heroes, would never let fear rule them. Many people were afraid to fly or go into tall buildings after 9/11, but the vast majority got over it.
7. Eventually we will have more answers, and the problem will be cured in competent fashion. Hopefully we will have at least another 38 years before another such accident happens.
This is all we really know, so don't become panicky with the speculative hysteria. Answers will come, and safety will return. What I truly do not understand: With this tragedy, wars in the middle east, a nut shooting missiles in North Korea, a lingering economic downturn, and an unexplained murder of a Hall of Fame quarterback, why is CNN spending at least half of its coverage on the all too predictable premature death of Michael Jackson?
As the castle show said, for a brief while, Disney World is the place where a nightmare came true. Shock and sadness are understandable, but don't let the anger or the fear take over. Pray for the victim and his family, and use the emotion productively if at all possible.
I am sure all of our hearts go out to everyone involved. Just try not to type in something that you may eventually regret.
Gepettotrevor
Member
blah blah blah blah blah
There are five million ways it could have happened. We will all know the REAL way it happened shortly. Speculation, rumors....alskdfjlaksdjflaksjdf. Right now, the internet investigation seems like it's finished by fellow internet detectives. However, the real investigation is still taking place and we will find out what happened when that is finished.
There are five million ways it could have happened. We will all know the REAL way it happened shortly. Speculation, rumors....alskdfjlaksdjflaksjdf. Right now, the internet investigation seems like it's finished by fellow internet detectives. However, the real investigation is still taking place and we will find out what happened when that is finished.
majortom1981
Active Member
Then thats a system and safety issue and would be a major problem for the park. If thats the case could the state of florida make disney not run the monorail till it fixes its safety issues?
I dont see the reason in being able to turn the safety controls off in the first place.
haveyoumetmark
Well-Known Member
Bingo.
Rob562
Well-Known Member
WHEW! I've been reading this thread for hours (with a multi-hours break to go see a movie). I didn't want to chime in until I'd read everything on here.
While I admit this is pure speculation, I have a theory on how the trains got back into the TTC station. Imagine you're backing up in your car or other vehicle. You hear a BANG and a thud. What is your first instinct? To drive forward again, away from whatever it is you hit.
So my (totally speculative) theory on the sequence of events *if* Pink backed into Purple is:
-Pink, for whatever reason, is backing into the station on MAPO override.
-Purple was either arriving at the station (would have required MAPO override) or was stopped just outside the station. I've been on trains that come to a full stop just before entering a station before, well past the typical hold-point out over the parking lot. Or perhaps the reverse movement of Pink gave Purple a red MAPO light, and Purple came to a stop where it was.
-Pink runs through the station and hits Purple.
-The driver of Pink is momentarily startled and freezes, then pulls forward, away from the collision. This pause would coincide with the witness statements of a 10-15 second pause before going the other direction.
-Because the two trains are now mangled togther, Pink unknowingly pulls Purple along with it into the station, where the videoed rescue occurred.
Again, this is a purely speculative theory, based on what I've read on here.
There are two possible operational changes that I could conceivably see them implementing in the future:
One is the installation of some sort of camera on each end so that the driver can see what is at the *other* end when driving in reverse.
Alternatively, any train movement that requires movement in one direction followed by going in the other direction, whether it be beam switching or otherwise, will be a two-person job. One driver at each end of the train, each driving the train "forward" for their particular part of the process so that at no time is any monorail driver driving blind going backwards. Each driver would have the full view out their windshield. I don't know the specifics of how the monorail software is set up, but I'm sure this wouldn't be TOO difficult to add.
-Rob
DryCreek
Member
Condolences
Wow. This is bad news. I always enjoyed riding in the front with the pilot, and on our last trip in February, that was one of the highlights for our in-laws.
There is a lot of speculation right now. The most plausible scenario right now seems to be that they were going to switch MR Pink to the Express Loop. MR Control (Central) might have mistakenly thought that MR Pink had been switched to the intermediate track and cleared it to back through the station while in override. Either the ordered switch did not occur, or MR Pink had not passed the switchpoint before starting the backing maneuver.
Either way (MR Pink backing into MR Purple, or MR Purple striking MR Pink), I am sure that there will be many unanswered questions left for us all - and worst of all, a horrible sense of guilt for those that survived (MR Pink pilot, and the dispatcher in MR Control).
As for the video, I don't think it is in poor taste. I like to think it is along the line of the Hindenberg disaster video. The only difference is in the reporters dialoge he expresses his own sadness and amazement; "Oh the humanity of it all!".
For those of you worrying about the age of the pilot - I offer something more to keep you awake at nights; a 21 year old may operate any tanker truck and obtain a HazMat endorsement. That's right, the truck carrying lethal liquid chlorine to the paper mill could be right next to you in traffic! As a side note, I am 47 - so I'm not taking up for the younger crowd, I just feel it is a non-issue.
As pointed out before, for an accident to occur, many safety systems had to be overidden or ignored. I work in an industry with many, many layers of safety engineered features. Even with all of the safeguards, people still have a way of creating incidents. It's human nature to think that you have all of the cintigencies covered and the outcome is assured.
Oh, and to be very picky - those are "BRAKES" that may have failed, not "breaks". And it is spelled SAFETY. And - oh, never mind.
Wow. This is bad news. I always enjoyed riding in the front with the pilot, and on our last trip in February, that was one of the highlights for our in-laws.
There is a lot of speculation right now. The most plausible scenario right now seems to be that they were going to switch MR Pink to the Express Loop. MR Control (Central) might have mistakenly thought that MR Pink had been switched to the intermediate track and cleared it to back through the station while in override. Either the ordered switch did not occur, or MR Pink had not passed the switchpoint before starting the backing maneuver.
Either way (MR Pink backing into MR Purple, or MR Purple striking MR Pink), I am sure that there will be many unanswered questions left for us all - and worst of all, a horrible sense of guilt for those that survived (MR Pink pilot, and the dispatcher in MR Control).
As for the video, I don't think it is in poor taste. I like to think it is along the line of the Hindenberg disaster video. The only difference is in the reporters dialoge he expresses his own sadness and amazement; "Oh the humanity of it all!".
For those of you worrying about the age of the pilot - I offer something more to keep you awake at nights; a 21 year old may operate any tanker truck and obtain a HazMat endorsement. That's right, the truck carrying lethal liquid chlorine to the paper mill could be right next to you in traffic! As a side note, I am 47 - so I'm not taking up for the younger crowd, I just feel it is a non-issue.
As pointed out before, for an accident to occur, many safety systems had to be overidden or ignored. I work in an industry with many, many layers of safety engineered features. Even with all of the safeguards, people still have a way of creating incidents. It's human nature to think that you have all of the cintigencies covered and the outcome is assured.
Oh, and to be very picky - those are "BRAKES" that may have failed, not "breaks". And it is spelled SAFETY. And - oh, never mind.
board57796
New Member
I would like to shed some light on the process for removing trains from the Epcot Beam.
Monorail Pink would be "deadheaded" at Concourse, meaning the Pilot announces that the train is going out of service and must be fully unloaded. The pilot walks through the train to ensure this, then closes the doors and goes back to Cab 1 (normal driving cab for Epcot.) At this point the conversation goes similar to this:
"Central, Monorail Pink is deadheaded at Concourse."
"10-4, Normal Visual to Pylon 30, hold at notify Central"
Pink then continues out in forward to Pylon 30, which places the end of his train (Cab 6) just past the switch point to take trains from Epcot to Express. Once Pink gets to 30 and notifies Central, Central radios shop to move "Switches 8 and 9 to the Spur Line, with power." This is where something went wrong last night. Either Shop didnt comply, Central didn't call, or something malfunctioned. Either way, something went wrong at this point last night.
Central will also call Purple and say
"Monorail Purple you are Normal Visual [if you have a green MAPO and no visual obstructions ahead, go ahead] to Pylon 379, hold and notify."
Pylon 379 is the primary holdpoint for Concourse, meaning if a train is at the station, the train behind will stop at Pylon 379. Pylon 379 is right over the handicapped parking, by the way.
Last night, from what I have been told by people who had radios on them (and switching is really the only interesting thing going on at 2am) that Pink was "Clear to use MAPO Override, in reverse, through 9, through 8, THROUGH BASE, through Poly, through Grand Flo to the Magic Kingdom, switch ends" meaning, had the switches been aligned properly, Pink would have been expecting to reverse COMPLETELY through Base on Express and all the way to the MK. "CLEAR" from Central means you GO. Even if you get an MBS, you MAPO override. Clear is as good as gold, when given from Central.
By this point, Purple has reached 379 and notified so. Central will then say "Purple you are normal visual to pylon 385 [directly above the tram station] then MAPO Override to reach Concourse, hold and notify."
Purple has to MAPO Override because, had the switches been aligned to the spur, there would have been a gap ahead of Purple, which would have given an RED MBS, even though Purple only needed to reach Concourse.
So IN MY OPINION, last night Pink was coming in Reverse in MAPO Override (as required to pass over a switch) but instead of being on the Spur Line, was in fact still on Epcot beam. I do not know why the Pilot did not realize this, but that is not for me to debate. At the same time, Purple was MAPO Overriding from pylon 385. The pilots did not realize their RED MBS was not from a switch being open, but in fact due to the other train. So Pink came through Concourse at 15mph in reverse (as restricted by computers) as Purple was approaching Concourse in forward, in MAPO Override, just past pylon 385 (as indicated by the photos showing it past the tram loading area) and this is where the collision I believe occured.
I have tried to be as factual about the switching process as I can without being too confusing, and the last paragraph was pure speculation, although I feel I have some credence as I took trains to shop nearly every night. Either way, it is a tragedy that a Cast Member was killed, and I can't imagine what the other driver must be feeling, as well as everyone else involved.
Monorail Pink would be "deadheaded" at Concourse, meaning the Pilot announces that the train is going out of service and must be fully unloaded. The pilot walks through the train to ensure this, then closes the doors and goes back to Cab 1 (normal driving cab for Epcot.) At this point the conversation goes similar to this:
"Central, Monorail Pink is deadheaded at Concourse."
"10-4, Normal Visual to Pylon 30, hold at notify Central"
Pink then continues out in forward to Pylon 30, which places the end of his train (Cab 6) just past the switch point to take trains from Epcot to Express. Once Pink gets to 30 and notifies Central, Central radios shop to move "Switches 8 and 9 to the Spur Line, with power." This is where something went wrong last night. Either Shop didnt comply, Central didn't call, or something malfunctioned. Either way, something went wrong at this point last night.
Central will also call Purple and say
"Monorail Purple you are Normal Visual [if you have a green MAPO and no visual obstructions ahead, go ahead] to Pylon 379, hold and notify."
Pylon 379 is the primary holdpoint for Concourse, meaning if a train is at the station, the train behind will stop at Pylon 379. Pylon 379 is right over the handicapped parking, by the way.
Last night, from what I have been told by people who had radios on them (and switching is really the only interesting thing going on at 2am) that Pink was "Clear to use MAPO Override, in reverse, through 9, through 8, THROUGH BASE, through Poly, through Grand Flo to the Magic Kingdom, switch ends" meaning, had the switches been aligned properly, Pink would have been expecting to reverse COMPLETELY through Base on Express and all the way to the MK. "CLEAR" from Central means you GO. Even if you get an MBS, you MAPO override. Clear is as good as gold, when given from Central.
By this point, Purple has reached 379 and notified so. Central will then say "Purple you are normal visual to pylon 385 [directly above the tram station] then MAPO Override to reach Concourse, hold and notify."
Purple has to MAPO Override because, had the switches been aligned to the spur, there would have been a gap ahead of Purple, which would have given an RED MBS, even though Purple only needed to reach Concourse.
So IN MY OPINION, last night Pink was coming in Reverse in MAPO Override (as required to pass over a switch) but instead of being on the Spur Line, was in fact still on Epcot beam. I do not know why the Pilot did not realize this, but that is not for me to debate. At the same time, Purple was MAPO Overriding from pylon 385. The pilots did not realize their RED MBS was not from a switch being open, but in fact due to the other train. So Pink came through Concourse at 15mph in reverse (as restricted by computers) as Purple was approaching Concourse in forward, in MAPO Override, just past pylon 385 (as indicated by the photos showing it past the tram loading area) and this is where the collision I believe occured.
I have tried to be as factual about the switching process as I can without being too confusing, and the last paragraph was pure speculation, although I feel I have some credence as I took trains to shop nearly every night. Either way, it is a tragedy that a Cast Member was killed, and I can't imagine what the other driver must be feeling, as well as everyone else involved.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
That actually sounds plausible.
majortom1981
Active Member
I think this is what could have happened. I think the only way to make this safer is to make it just like roller coasters work . Make it so yo ucant override a saftey problem. They would have to manually move the train via the diesel mover to the next block (or fix the sensor if its a bad sensor) before the system can start up again.
A monorail driver being able to override the system is not very safe in my opinion.
Gepettotrevor
Member
you are my hero buddy!
Smartiewdw
New Member
Concur
From what I've been able to get out of my sources with knowledge of the situation and experience in the area this theory was presented more than once, which also helps explain the timeline of the pictures.
From what I've been able to get out of my sources with knowledge of the situation and experience in the area this theory was presented more than once, which also helps explain the timeline of the pictures.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
To be honest with you...Make them driverless.:shrug:
Have Control run the trains and put a CM on each one to radio the "tower" to monitor the systems.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
Double post... sorry.
Gepettotrevor
Member
Let's get mythbusters to test this.
Oh wait, we already have already gotten the professional internet investigators on this. Yeah, they sit at their desk and make their decisions on rumors and random facts. No need to hire anybody with a degree to go out to the scene and professionally investigate. We already have that solved. Whoopdedoo? :shrug:
Oh wait, we already have already gotten the professional internet investigators on this. Yeah, they sit at their desk and make their decisions on rumors and random facts. No need to hire anybody with a degree to go out to the scene and professionally investigate. We already have that solved. Whoopdedoo? :shrug:
majortom1981
Active Member
I dont see what is wrong with discussing this. This is a discussion board. if we couldnt discuss how disney worked we wouldnt have these boards in the first place. no need to post just to say stop posting about it.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
Nothing wrong with just talk as long as it is respectful to the loss WDW and all of us, really, suffered today.:shrug:
majortom1981
Active Member
hmm
The news paper said the monorails do have black boxes that tell disney what happened so we will know what happened eventually if disney feels like releasing the info.
I am just worried that this could leave the monorail down for months depending on how the state of florida handles this.
The news paper said the monorails do have black boxes that tell disney what happened so we will know what happened eventually if disney feels like releasing the info.
I am just worried that this could leave the monorail down for months depending on how the state of florida handles this.