Rapid Fill Mug Program Fails (at more ways than you might think)

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Yeah the same way my local bakery does it, removing crumbs from the bakery cabinet with frequent applications of wipes saturated with sanitizer. Same goes for the outdoor dispensers wipe up spills and wipe machines down with sanitizer

Oh wait this requires EMPLOYEES to spend time performing non-revenue work. Impractical at WDW...
Again, let's not take the magnitude of the human element in this scenario. I don't want sanitizer or wipe downs every time I go to get a drink or a pastry. Sanitizer will not stop the insects anyway and you are talking about having a steady spray of the stuff constantly. Chemicals are actually more of a possible problem then a few natural insects. I don't think it is that big of a problem in an enclosed case anyway, however, out in the open, it is a losing battle. There are way more of them then there are of us (see It's tough to be a bug) and the idea that all you have to do is continually wipe down a spigot to solve the problem is not even close to a real solution. Again the accusation that they don't have procedures in place to keep it as much under control as possible, is just an assumption on your part and not based on realistic possibilities. Something called Alternative Facts. It's not the crumbs they be after... it's the mother-load! Arrrrrr!
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
Again, let's not take the magnitude of the human element in this scenario. I don't want sanitizer or wipe downs every time I go to get a drink or a pastry. Sanitizer will not stop the insects anyway and you are talking about having a steady spray of the stuff constantly. Chemicals are actually more of a possible problem then a few natural insects. I don't think it is that big of a problem in an enclosed case anyway, however, out in the open, it is a losing battle. There are way more of them then there are of us (see It's tough to be a bug) and the idea that all you have to do is continually wipe down a spigot to solve the problem is not even close to a real solution. Again the accusation that they don't have procedures in place to keep it as much under control as possible, is just an assumption on your part and not based on realistic possibilities. Something called Alternative Facts. It's not the crumbs they be after... it's the mother-load! Arrrrrr!

Wait, doesn't Disney have an extravagant insect management program?
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Wait, doesn't Disney have an extravagant insect management program?
That doesn't mean that they are not needed to maintain the environment. They cannot be eliminated without doing significant harm to the balance of nature. What they can do is not offer fountain drinks out in the open. Bottled or nothing. How well do you think that would go over? Again, See It's tough to be a Bug.
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
That doesn't mean that they are not needed to maintain the environment. They cannot be eliminated without doing significant harm to the balance of nature. What they can do is not offer fountain drinks out in the open. Bottled or nothing. How well do you think that would go over? Again, See It's tough to be a Bug.

That's the right idea, but how would TWDC make money on their $20 resort mugs if they did that? :joyfull:
 

Gringrinngghost

Well-Known Member
Seeing there is a discussion about this, and while everyone is fighting about the RFID the reason that Disney is implementing them is due to the fact that the 19 cents extra the sticker cost (when among a sheet of 1000) are a two-sided issue. Fortunately, I've been on the inside and on the outside of these parks to the point of I know how much it costs even for a cup of soda. There was rampant abuse with guess asking for a cup of water and filling them up with soda, even at universal all this I'll such a rampant abuse with that they actually had to disable the option for water out of all the Coke freestyle machines because of guests doing this to the point that they had to replace the filters fairly quick and the filters and those machines are expensive but that's beside the point.

At Universal Orlando, it's the same exact cost for a normal soda that is a Disney $3.29 before tax. These machines use bibs (bags in the box) essentially that carry the high fructose corn syrup for all your nondiet beverages and then the nonnutritive sweetener for all your diet beverages. These bibs are around $13 each, what's the high fructose corn syrup in a 5-gallon bib we'll only make it 239 20 ounce beverages, where the nonnutritive sweetener comes in a 2.5-gallon bib and I will make 830 20 ounce beverages (I'm using this information sans pricing from the Coke Freestyle User manual; $13 price came from Reddit, I was able to find online Coke high fructose corn syrup bibs for $37). The cost for the soda syrup alone is higher, with the pricing I found (Ironically at Sam's Club) that a 2.5-gallon bib costs $48 while the 5-gallon bib costs $82.

It's costly to run these machines even if you look at it from the cost of the Bibs and water filter (since Coke touts especially in the Freestyle owner documents that "water makes up over 80% of all beverages,"). Also knowing about how the parks get their soda and usually at the cost, Coke gives them the syrup for free, but Coke also sets the cost of the soda based on since when you go to purchase a Coke at Disney you are paying for the cup/container that comes from Coke, as well as Disney’s upcharge. The RFID feature could have been Coke's hand (since the Coke Freestyles DO phone home about selling habits; I will discuss that here more depth). I know that by using the Freestyle drink dispenser, Coca-Cola is able to collect value piece of data on consumer habits especially which drinks are being consumed, and when. Since each flavor cartridge is tagged with a RFID chip, and each dispenser contains an RFID reader, the dispenser is able to collect data on what customers are drinking and how much. Eventually, this data is sent over a wireless network to Coke’s SAP data warehouse system in Atlanta, GA. From there, the data will be analyzed in order to develop reports that assess how new drinks are thriving in the marketplace, and divide up results by regional tastes, ultimately helping fast-food places decide which drinks to serve. They also use the RFID so Businesses can see a graphical view of drink consumption reports, ranking which drinks sold at specific time periods, through an e-business portal. Since most fast-food restaurants collect POS data only on the number and sizes of beverage cups sold, it allows visibility on data that has not previously been collected. Since all the cartridge information is all stored on a network, it will be easy to recall a flavor because the network will instantly disable the dispensers simultaneously across the nation.

Disney and Universal use ValidFill as the company for the RFID receivers; ValidFill even goes to the point of using photographs from both companies. The beauty of ValidFill is how blatant they are about allowing the operator to milk money out of guests. This is literally on their page about Theme Parks (added bolding for emphasis) "Theme Park operators can now create prepaid big offers like “Good All Day” and “Good All Season” to optimize up front revenue and deliver the ultimate beverage convenience for park guests. With a network of control dispensers that allows the guest to avoid POS registers and crew serve lines for their entire visit, operators can charge a premium for this high level of convenience. The successful execution of these offers drives the elimination of hundreds of thousands of transactions in your POS line queue each year and the avoidance of hundreds of thousands of consumables all while being able to charge a premium retail for this premium offer." And for the Resort side of things (again added bolding for emphasis) "Resort operators can now expand their fountain audience with 100+ drink choices, 70+ of which are low or no calorie options and offer the fastest speed of service during peak and 24 hour access to fountain refreshment to their guests. This convenience, the value of unlimited fills for the length of stay and a distinctive branded souvenir vessel for your destination is a powerful combination that resort operators are leveraging to drive large prepaid fountain profits." ValidFill does allow for real-time results and to conduct program optimization which is partial to why they are both for it, especially since VaildFill is partnered with Whirley Drink Works so they can still sell their souvenir soda cups. So at Universal, since they have a plethora of Freestyle machines, They are pulling double duty to not only help Coke but to help themselves as well. Disney, I have heard does the same now with the additions of the Freestyle machines.

Why the 5 limit refills? That's a good question, and I do believe that it is there to discourage guests to just sitting there all day mindlessly drinking soda, and would require more guest spending. (Fun anecdote: When I worked in the Orlando Parks, my co-workers were told to stop on numerous occasions mind you to the act of keeping our day old paper soda cups in the fridge because we would use them the next day to save money). So yes, its there to discourage guests to just sitting there all day mindlessly drinking soda, and would require more guest spending; even employees too. But if I were to go with the marketing of ValidFill, its to allow operators to "place dispensers in high traffic areas and give you the control to get paid for every pour." They even go on to note that "revenue improvement from these offers and the operational improvement combine to boost food service operator performance in dramatic ways." Mind you the frequently asked questions do answer that "Each location specifies the wait time required between fills. This wait time is set by each company and can vary, but typically the wait time is 5 minutes." They also time the pours at approximately 70 seconds " Once the guest starts to fill their cup, the guest has approximately 70 seconds to use the allowable ounces for that fill. After 70 seconds, the cup is charged a fill regardless of how many ounces of soda was dispensed." They can also limit the amount of soda that can be dispensed "The RFID enabled cup stores the capacity of the cup and will dispense up to that amount. Some clients elect to have the total number of ounces dispensed to be more or less than the size of the cup."

Is ValidFill or RFID invincible to abuse? No. In August of 2014, I discovered a flaw in the RFID system of ValidFill, which would permit for multiple beverages to poured. I haven't reported it nor tested it but I am fairly confident in it. I am not about to condone theft of services so I will not share anything about the exploit other than one could fill multiple beverages in the 70-second window if there isn't a limit of the total ounces allowed to dispense. The downside of the system is that it has a limited capacity, "Yes, for multi-valve dispensers the system is designed to handle up to 6 guests using the same machine at one time. "

Overall, they have these systems in place for multiple reasons. but as I have explained hopefully well enough for the average non-tech savy reader or one who doesn't understand the new systems well enough why its in place. It does have benefits for all those involved. Personally, I would rather get 5 refills from a 3.29 cup rather than one fill for 3.29.

I know I went on longer than I wanted, but I wanted to explain these systems as best as I could. Sorry if it drags anywhere.
 
Last edited:

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
Seeing there is a discussion about this, and while everyone is fighting about the RFID the reason that Disney is implementing them is due to the fact that the 19 cents extra the sticker cost (when among a sheet of 1000) are a two-sided issue. Fortunately, I've been on the inside and on the outside of these parks to the point of I know how much it costs even for a cup of soda...

... I know I went on longer than I wanted, but I wanted to explain these systems as best as I could. Sorry if it drags anywhere.

Well, I found it all thoroughly fascinating.

Thank you for taking the time to share.
 

King Racoon 77

Thank you sir. You were an inspiration.
Premium Member
Seeing there is a discussion about this, and while everyone is fighting about the RFID the reason that Disney is implementing them is due to the fact that the 19 cents extra the sticker cost (when among a sheet of 1000) are a two-sided issue. Fortunately, I've been on the inside and on the outside of these parks to the point of I know how much it costs even for a cup of soda. There was rampant abuse with guess asking for a cup of water and filling them up with soda, even at universal all this I'll such a rampant abuse with that they actually had to disable the option for water out of all the Coke freestyle machines because of guests doing this to the point that they had to replace the filters fairly quick and the filters and those machines are expensive but that's beside the point.

At Universal Orlando, it's the same exact cost for a normal soda that is a Disney $3.29 before tax. These machines use bibs (bags in the box) essentially that carry the high fructose corn syrup for all your nondiet beverages and then the nonnutritive sweetener for all your diet beverages. These bibs are around $13 each, what's the high fructose corn syrup in a 5-gallon bib we'll only make it 239 20 ounce beverages, where the nonnutritive sweetener comes in a 2.5-gallon bib and I will make 830 20 ounce beverages (I'm using this information sans pricing from the Coke Freestyle User manual; $13 price came from Reddit, I was able to find online Coke high fructose corn syrup bibs for $37). The cost for the soda syrup alone is higher, with the pricing I found (Ironically at Sam's Club) that a 2.5-gallon bib costs $48 while the 5-gallon bib costs $82.

It's costly to run these machines even if you look at it from the cost of the Bibs and water filter (since Coke touts especially in the Freestyle owner documents that "water makes up over 80% of all beverages,"). Also knowing about how the parks get their soda and usually at the cost, Coke gives them the syrup for free, but Coke also sets the cost of the soda based on since when you go to purchase a Coke at Disney you are paying for the cup/container that comes from Coke, as well as Disney’s upcharge. The RFID feature could have been Coke's hand (since the Coke Freestyles DO phone home about selling habits; I will discuss that here more depth). I know that by using the Freestyle drink dispenser, Coca-Cola is able to collect value piece of data on consumer habits especially which drinks are being consumed, and when. Since each flavor cartridge is tagged with a RFID chip, and each dispenser contains an RFID reader, the dispenser is able to collect data on what customers are drinking and how much. Eventually, this data is sent over a wireless network to Coke’s SAP data warehouse system in Atlanta, GA. From there, the data will be analyzed in order to develop reports that assess how new drinks are thriving in the marketplace, and divide up results by regional tastes, ultimately helping fast-food places decide which drinks to serve. They also use the RFID so Businesses can see a graphical view of drink consumption reports, ranking which drinks sold at specific time periods, through an e-business portal. Since most fast-food restaurants collect POS data only on the number and sizes of beverage cups sold, it allows visibility on data that has not previously been collected. Since all the cartridge information is all stored on a network, it will be easy to recall a flavor because the network will instantly disable the dispensers simultaneously across the nation.

Disney and Universal use ValidFill as the company for the RFID receivers; ValidFill even goes to the point of using photographs from both companies. The beauty of ValidFill is how blatant they are about allowing the operator to milk money out of guests. This is literally on their page about Theme Parks (added bolding for emphasis) "Theme Park operators can now create prepaid big offers like “Good All Day” and “Good All Season” to optimize up front revenue and deliver the ultimate beverage convenience for park guests. With a network of control dispensers that allows the guest to avoid POS registers and crew serve lines for their entire visit, operators can charge a premium for this high level of convenience. The successful execution of these offers drives the elimination of hundreds of thousands of transactions in your POS line queue each year and the avoidance of hundreds of thousands of consumables all while being able to charge a premium retail for this premium offer." And for the Resort side of things (again added bolding for emphasis) "Resort operators can now expand their fountain audience with 100+ drink choices, 70+ of which are low or no calorie options and offer the fastest speed of service during peak and 24 hour access to fountain refreshment to their guests. This convenience, the value of unlimited fills for the length of stay and a distinctive branded souvenir vessel for your destination is a powerful combination that resort operators are leveraging to drive large prepaid fountain profits." ValidFill does allow for real-time results and to conduct program optimization which is partial to why they are both for it, especially since VaildFill is partnered with Whirley Drink Works so they can still sell their souvenir soda cups. So at Universal, since they have a plethora of Freestyle machines, They are pulling double duty to not only help Coke but to help themselves as well. Disney, I have heard does the same now with the additions of the Freestyle machines.

Why the 5 limit refills? That's a good question, and I do believe that it is there to discourage guests to just sitting there all day mindlessly drinking soda, and would require more guest spending. (Fun anecdote: When I worked in the Orlando Parks, my co-workers were told to stop on numerous occasions mind you to the act of keeping our day old paper soda cups in the fridge because we would use them the next day to save money). So yes, its there to discourage guests to just sitting there all day mindlessly drinking soda, and would require more guest spending; even employees too. But if I were to go with the marketing of ValidFill, its to allow operators to "place dispensers in high traffic areas and give you the control to get paid for every pour." They even go on to note that "revenue improvement from these offers and the operational improvement combine to boost food service operator performance in dramatic ways." Mind you the frequently asked questions do answer that "Each location specifies the wait time required between fills. This wait time is set by each company and can vary, but typically the wait time is 5 minutes." They also time the pours at approximately 70 seconds " Once the guest starts to fill their cup, the guest has approximately 70 seconds to use the allowable ounces for that fill. After 70 seconds, the cup is charged a fill regardless of how many ounces of soda was dispensed." They can also limit the amount of soda that can be dispensed "The RFID enabled cup stores the capacity of the cup and will dispense up to that amount. Some clients elect to have the total number of ounces dispensed to be more or less than the size of the cup."

Is ValidFill or RFID invincible to abuse? No. In August of 2014, I discovered a flaw in the RFID system of ValidFill, which would permit for multiple beverages to poured. I haven't reported it nor tested it but I am fairly confident in it. I am not about to condone theft of services so I will not share anything about the exploit other than one could fill multiple beverages in the 70-second window if there isn't a limit of the total ounces allowed to dispense. The downside of the system is that it has a limited capacity, "Yes, for multi-valve dispensers the system is designed to handle up to 6 guests using the same machine at one time. "

Overall, they have these systems in place for multiple reasons. but as I have explained hopefully well enough for the average non-tech savy reader or one who doesn't understand the new systems well enough why its in place. It does have benefits for all those involved. Personally, I would rather get 5 refills from a 3.29 cup rather than one fill for 3.29.

I know I went on longer than I wanted, but I wanted to explain these systems as best as I could. Sorry if it drags anywhere.

Thanks for the explanation. Very interesting.
 

Laketravis

Well-Known Member
Seeing there is a discussion about this, and while everyone is fighting about the RFID the reason that Disney is implementing them is due to the fact that the 19 cents extra the sticker cost (when among a sheet of 1000) are a two-sided issue. Fortunately, I've been on the inside and on the outside of these parks to the point of I know how much it costs even for a cup of soda. There was rampant abuse with guess asking for a cup of water and filling them up with soda, even at universal all this I'll such a rampant abuse with that they actually had to disable the option for water out of all the Coke freestyle machines because of guests doing this to the point that they had to replace the filters fairly quick and the filters and those machines are expensive but that's beside the point.

At Universal Orlando, it's the same exact cost for a normal soda that is a Disney $3.29 before tax. These machines use bibs (bags in the box) essentially that carry the high fructose corn syrup for all your nondiet beverages and then the nonnutritive sweetener for all your diet beverages. These bibs are around $13 each, what's the high fructose corn syrup in a 5-gallon bib we'll only make it 239 20 ounce beverages, where the nonnutritive sweetener comes in a 2.5-gallon bib and I will make 830 20 ounce beverages (I'm using this information sans pricing from the Coke Freestyle User manual; $13 price came from Reddit, I was able to find online Coke high fructose corn syrup bibs for $37). The cost for the soda syrup alone is higher, with the pricing I found (Ironically at Sam's Club) that a 2.5-gallon bib costs $48 while the 5-gallon bib costs $82.

It's costly to run these machines even if you look at it from the cost of the Bibs and water filter (since Coke touts especially in the Freestyle owner documents that "water makes up over 80% of all beverages,"). Also knowing about how the parks get their soda and usually at the cost, Coke gives them the syrup for free, but Coke also sets the cost of the soda based on since when you go to purchase a Coke at Disney you are paying for the cup/container that comes from Coke, as well as Disney’s upcharge. The RFID feature could have been Coke's hand (since the Coke Freestyles DO phone home about selling habits; I will discuss that here more depth). I know that by using the Freestyle drink dispenser, Coca-Cola is able to collect value piece of data on consumer habits especially which drinks are being consumed, and when. Since each flavor cartridge is tagged with a RFID chip, and each dispenser contains an RFID reader, the dispenser is able to collect data on what customers are drinking and how much. Eventually, this data is sent over a wireless network to Coke’s SAP data warehouse system in Atlanta, GA. From there, the data will be analyzed in order to develop reports that assess how new drinks are thriving in the marketplace, and divide up results by regional tastes, ultimately helping fast-food places decide which drinks to serve. They also use the RFID so Businesses can see a graphical view of drink consumption reports, ranking which drinks sold at specific time periods, through an e-business portal. Since most fast-food restaurants collect POS data only on the number and sizes of beverage cups sold, it allows visibility on data that has not previously been collected. Since all the cartridge information is all stored on a network, it will be easy to recall a flavor because the network will instantly disable the dispensers simultaneously across the nation.

Disney and Universal use ValidFill as the company for the RFID receivers; ValidFill even goes to the point of using photographs from both companies. The beauty of ValidFill is how blatant they are about allowing the operator to milk money out of guests. This is literally on their page about Theme Parks (added bolding for emphasis) "Theme Park operators can now create prepaid big offers like “Good All Day” and “Good All Season” to optimize up front revenue and deliver the ultimate beverage convenience for park guests. With a network of control dispensers that allows the guest to avoid POS registers and crew serve lines for their entire visit, operators can charge a premium for this high level of convenience. The successful execution of these offers drives the elimination of hundreds of thousands of transactions in your POS line queue each year and the avoidance of hundreds of thousands of consumables all while being able to charge a premium retail for this premium offer." And for the Resort side of things (again added bolding for emphasis) "Resort operators can now expand their fountain audience with 100+ drink choices, 70+ of which are low or no calorie options and offer the fastest speed of service during peak and 24 hour access to fountain refreshment to their guests. This convenience, the value of unlimited fills for the length of stay and a distinctive branded souvenir vessel for your destination is a powerful combination that resort operators are leveraging to drive large prepaid fountain profits." ValidFill does allow for real-time results and to conduct program optimization which is partial to why they are both for it, especially since VaildFill is partnered with Whirley Drink Works so they can still sell their souvenir soda cups. So at Universal, since they have a plethora of Freestyle machines, They are pulling double duty to not only help Coke but to help themselves as well. Disney, I have heard does the same now with the additions of the Freestyle machines.

Why the 5 limit refills? That's a good question, and I do believe that it is there to discourage guests to just sitting there all day mindlessly drinking soda, and would require more guest spending. (Fun anecdote: When I worked in the Orlando Parks, my co-workers were told to stop on numerous occasions mind you to the act of keeping our day old paper soda cups in the fridge because we would use them the next day to save money). So yes, its there to discourage guests to just sitting there all day mindlessly drinking soda, and would require more guest spending; even employees too. But if I were to go with the marketing of ValidFill, its to allow operators to "place dispensers in high traffic areas and give you the control to get paid for every pour." They even go on to note that "revenue improvement from these offers and the operational improvement combine to boost food service operator performance in dramatic ways." Mind you the frequently asked questions do answer that "Each location specifies the wait time required between fills. This wait time is set by each company and can vary, but typically the wait time is 5 minutes." They also time the pours at approximately 70 seconds " Once the guest starts to fill their cup, the guest has approximately 70 seconds to use the allowable ounces for that fill. After 70 seconds, the cup is charged a fill regardless of how many ounces of soda was dispensed." They can also limit the amount of soda that can be dispensed "The RFID enabled cup stores the capacity of the cup and will dispense up to that amount. Some clients elect to have the total number of ounces dispensed to be more or less than the size of the cup."

Is ValidFill or RFID invincible to abuse? No. In August of 2014, I discovered a flaw in the RFID system of ValidFill, which would permit for multiple beverages to poured. I haven't reported it nor tested it but I am fairly confident in it. I am not about to condone theft of services so I will not share anything about the exploit other than one could fill multiple beverages in the 70-second window if there isn't a limit of the total ounces allowed to dispense. The downside of the system is that it has a limited capacity, "Yes, for multi-valve dispensers the system is designed to handle up to 6 guests using the same machine at one time. "

Overall, they have these systems in place for multiple reasons. but as I have explained hopefully well enough for the average non-tech savy reader or one who doesn't understand the new systems well enough why its in place. It does have benefits for all those involved. Personally, I would rather get 5 refills from a 3.29 cup rather than one fill for 3.29.

I know I went on longer than I wanted, but I wanted to explain these systems as best as I could. Sorry if it drags anywhere.


Thanks for sharing this, great info and even fun to read. Confirms that overall revenue optimization is the primary goal with abuse control a secondary benefit.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Seeing there is a discussion about this, and while everyone is fighting about the RFID the reason that Disney is implementing them is due to the fact that the 19 cents extra the sticker cost (when among a sheet of 1000) are a two-sided issue. Fortunately, I've been on the inside and on the outside of these parks to the point of I know how much it costs even for a cup of soda. There was rampant abuse with guess asking for a cup of water and filling them up with soda, even at universal all this I'll such a rampant abuse with that they actually had to disable the option for water out of all the Coke freestyle machines because of guests doing this to the point that they had to replace the filters fairly quick and the filters and those machines are expensive but that's beside the point.

At Universal Orlando, it's the same exact cost for a normal soda that is a Disney $3.29 before tax. These machines use bibs (bags in the box) essentially that carry the high fructose corn syrup for all your nondiet beverages and then the nonnutritive sweetener for all your diet beverages. These bibs are around $13 each, what's the high fructose corn syrup in a 5-gallon bib we'll only make it 239 20 ounce beverages, where the nonnutritive sweetener comes in a 2.5-gallon bib and I will make 830 20 ounce beverages (I'm using this information sans pricing from the Coke Freestyle User manual; $13 price came from Reddit, I was able to find online Coke high fructose corn syrup bibs for $37). The cost for the soda syrup alone is higher, with the pricing I found (Ironically at Sam's Club) that a 2.5-gallon bib costs $48 while the 5-gallon bib costs $82.

It's costly to run these machines even if you look at it from the cost of the Bibs and water filter (since Coke touts especially in the Freestyle owner documents that "water makes up over 80% of all beverages,"). Also knowing about how the parks get their soda and usually at the cost, Coke gives them the syrup for free, but Coke also sets the cost of the soda based on since when you go to purchase a Coke at Disney you are paying for the cup/container that comes from Coke, as well as Disney’s upcharge. The RFID feature could have been Coke's hand (since the Coke Freestyles DO phone home about selling habits; I will discuss that here more depth). I know that by using the Freestyle drink dispenser, Coca-Cola is able to collect value piece of data on consumer habits especially which drinks are being consumed, and when. Since each flavor cartridge is tagged with a RFID chip, and each dispenser contains an RFID reader, the dispenser is able to collect data on what customers are drinking and how much. Eventually, this data is sent over a wireless network to Coke’s SAP data warehouse system in Atlanta, GA. From there, the data will be analyzed in order to develop reports that assess how new drinks are thriving in the marketplace, and divide up results by regional tastes, ultimately helping fast-food places decide which drinks to serve. They also use the RFID so Businesses can see a graphical view of drink consumption reports, ranking which drinks sold at specific time periods, through an e-business portal. Since most fast-food restaurants collect POS data only on the number and sizes of beverage cups sold, it allows visibility on data that has not previously been collected. Since all the cartridge information is all stored on a network, it will be easy to recall a flavor because the network will instantly disable the dispensers simultaneously across the nation.

Disney and Universal use ValidFill as the company for the RFID receivers; ValidFill even goes to the point of using photographs from both companies. The beauty of ValidFill is how blatant they are about allowing the operator to milk money out of guests. This is literally on their page about Theme Parks (added bolding for emphasis) "Theme Park operators can now create prepaid big offers like “Good All Day” and “Good All Season” to optimize up front revenue and deliver the ultimate beverage convenience for park guests. With a network of control dispensers that allows the guest to avoid POS registers and crew serve lines for their entire visit, operators can charge a premium for this high level of convenience. The successful execution of these offers drives the elimination of hundreds of thousands of transactions in your POS line queue each year and the avoidance of hundreds of thousands of consumables all while being able to charge a premium retail for this premium offer." And for the Resort side of things (again added bolding for emphasis) "Resort operators can now expand their fountain audience with 100+ drink choices, 70+ of which are low or no calorie options and offer the fastest speed of service during peak and 24 hour access to fountain refreshment to their guests. This convenience, the value of unlimited fills for the length of stay and a distinctive branded souvenir vessel for your destination is a powerful combination that resort operators are leveraging to drive large prepaid fountain profits." ValidFill does allow for real-time results and to conduct program optimization which is partial to why they are both for it, especially since VaildFill is partnered with Whirley Drink Works so they can still sell their souvenir soda cups. So at Universal, since they have a plethora of Freestyle machines, They are pulling double duty to not only help Coke but to help themselves as well. Disney, I have heard does the same now with the additions of the Freestyle machines.

Why the 5 limit refills? That's a good question, and I do believe that it is there to discourage guests to just sitting there all day mindlessly drinking soda, and would require more guest spending. (Fun anecdote: When I worked in the Orlando Parks, my co-workers were told to stop on numerous occasions mind you to the act of keeping our day old paper soda cups in the fridge because we would use them the next day to save money). So yes, its there to discourage guests to just sitting there all day mindlessly drinking soda, and would require more guest spending; even employees too. But if I were to go with the marketing of ValidFill, its to allow operators to "place dispensers in high traffic areas and give you the control to get paid for every pour." They even go on to note that "revenue improvement from these offers and the operational improvement combine to boost food service operator performance in dramatic ways." Mind you the frequently asked questions do answer that "Each location specifies the wait time required between fills. This wait time is set by each company and can vary, but typically the wait time is 5 minutes." They also time the pours at approximately 70 seconds " Once the guest starts to fill their cup, the guest has approximately 70 seconds to use the allowable ounces for that fill. After 70 seconds, the cup is charged a fill regardless of how many ounces of soda was dispensed." They can also limit the amount of soda that can be dispensed "The RFID enabled cup stores the capacity of the cup and will dispense up to that amount. Some clients elect to have the total number of ounces dispensed to be more or less than the size of the cup."

Is ValidFill or RFID invincible to abuse? No. In August of 2014, I discovered a flaw in the RFID system of ValidFill, which would permit for multiple beverages to poured. I haven't reported it nor tested it but I am fairly confident in it. I am not about to condone theft of services so I will not share anything about the exploit other than one could fill multiple beverages in the 70-second window if there isn't a limit of the total ounces allowed to dispense. The downside of the system is that it has a limited capacity, "Yes, for multi-valve dispensers the system is designed to handle up to 6 guests using the same machine at one time. "

Overall, they have these systems in place for multiple reasons. but as I have explained hopefully well enough for the average non-tech savy reader or one who doesn't understand the new systems well enough why its in place. It does have benefits for all those involved. Personally, I would rather get 5 refills from a 3.29 cup rather than one fill for 3.29.

I know I went on longer than I wanted, but I wanted to explain these systems as best as I could. Sorry if it drags anywhere.

Thanks for this thorough explanation of the Freestyle machines
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
Well, I found it all thoroughly fascinating.

Thank you for taking the time to share.

Thanks for the explanation. Very interesting.

Thanks for sharing this, great info and even fun to read. Confirms that overall revenue optimization is the primary goal with abuse control a secondary benefit.

Thanks for this thorough explanation of the Freestyle machines

^ What they said.
 

righttrack

Well-Known Member
The perceived value of refillable mugs drops considerably when you have to go to such limited places to do so. You also have to carry them around with you and they are indiscernible from other guests' mugs so it's not like you can put them down anywhere. When we've had them, we filled them in the evening and that's about it. I'd much rather WDW put a case of water in your room every three or four days if you're on the meal plan.
 

dmatt87

Well-Known Member
It isn't common? All they would have to do is not order a drink with their meal and refill their coffee mug or sports bottle. Or ask for regular water, be handed a small empty cup, and fill it with Sprite. Or order three meals and just one beverage. Those 16 year olds behind the counter don't care. Millions of people walk into a McDonald's (or Burger King, or Whataburger, etc) every day and each one is a potential beverage thief. Many of those locations are hot as well. I've sat in the lobby of both Drury hotels on the San Antonio Riverwalk numerous times and observed a number of people walk in, grab a clear plastic cup next to the soda fountain, fill it with a beverage of their choice, and then leave. Unless someone has some hard stats I'm inclined to believe their exposure to pilferage is just as high and common as WDW resorts, if not more so.

And as stated earlier, it's one thing to restrict beverage dispensing to a particular beverage holder for the length of your stay. That would effectively address many of the situations you described. But it's another to limit the time interval between those refills during that stay. As hot as it is and as thirsty as I might be, who's to say I can't down a couple of Cokes in a 3 minute period? :)

I think in the end the reason is simple - it's to sell more cups to each member of a party to make more money. Whether your McDonalds or Disney, the actual cost of soda is only a smear in the overall budget - they don't care of the the actual act of stealing it. The difference is WDW has guests there for numerous nights, hence willing to buy a special unlimited refill cup!!! So by limiting the quantity you can fill in a given period, it encourages people to buy many cups, which WDW profits from.

Very simple, but it can be frustrating to some.
 

Laketravis

Well-Known Member
Okay, so let me throw a wrench in this discussion by mentioning something that has always bothered me about the "Unlimited" beverage option. And that is the inability to refill them in the parks. Now that Disney has had a few years to figure out how to prevent abuse thru metered and timed usage and has the programmable intelligence to know if the beverage cup user is actually the beverage cup owner admitted to the park that day, why not allow the option of in-park refills?
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Thanks for sharing this, great info and even fun to read. Confirms that overall revenue optimization is the primary goal with abuse control a secondary benefit.
Aren't the 2 completely related? Isn't the potential loss in revenue directly the result of guests taking soda without paying? Is there another reason why the rapid fill system would generate more revenue?

I thought the debate was whether they implemented the system to reduce costs from stolen soda or increase revenue from sales to former soda thiefs. In that case the revenue is a much bigger driver. Either way the system was implemented to protect profits due to abuse.
 

dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
So here is a slightly off topic question then. If we are checking in the 10th and checking out on the 18th, with a DDP that would be 8 days worth of meal points. Does the RFID for the cup turn off after we leave on the 18th, or at 11:59 on the 17th?

The cups should be good for 14 days as soon as you pay for them (confirmable via the LED screen on the fountain) at any WDW resort. If you are staying longer than the 14 days, you should be able to bring your mug + receipt back to a cashier and they will extend or issue a new mug (I think it's the later from the number of reports that the mugs cannot be reused).
 

Laketravis

Well-Known Member
Is there another reason why the rapid fill system would generate more revenue?

I think there are several reasons why it would/could generate additional revenue, many of which are cited by the vendor themselves. Increased marketing flexibility, a variety of offerings, ability to create custom refill programs, etc. Preventing abuse is both a byproduct and a benefit of those capabilities. But then I wonder why you can't purchase an additional option to refill in the parks; my bet is Disney has already done the math and determined if even more guests purchased that option it wouldn't be sufficient to offset their in-park purchase of beverages not related to their resort mug.
 

larryz

I'm Just A Tourist!
Premium Member
I think there are several reasons why it would/could generate additional revenue, many of which are cited by the vendor themselves. Increased marketing flexibility, a variety of offerings, ability to create custom refill programs, etc. Preventing abuse is both a byproduct and a benefit of those capabilities. But then I wonder why you can't purchase an additional option to refill in the parks; my bet is Disney has already done the math and determined if even more guests purchased that option it wouldn't be sufficient to offset their in-park purchase of beverages not related to their resort mug.
And then they'd have to stock refillable mugs in the parks, too, because everyone will want one, else you'll generate bad will among the cheapskates day guests, and we don't want that, now, do we...?
 

njDizFan

Well-Known Member
Oh man a refillable mug debate, haven't see one of these in a few months!

BTW McDonalds just implemented their $1 beverage program. $1 for any soft drink/coffee of any size or variety.
Wall Street was not happy with them last quarter. Soda is such a high profit item the cups are more costly than the product.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Oh man a refillable mug debate, haven't see one of these in a few months!

BTW McDonalds just implemented their $1 beverage program. $1 for any soft drink/coffee of any size or variety.
Wall Street was not happy with them last quarter. Soda is such a high profit item the cups are more costly than the product.

Huh? It's been done for year(s)... in fact it's been quietly rolled back since at a lot of locations. They did this all the way back in 2013 or later. I guess the reporters today missed that in their eagerness to cover McDonald's announcements.
 

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