GAC to Become DAS

[BroganMc]

Wheelchairs can appear much wider than they actually are. I recently toured a public building with a wheelchair-bound friend and was shocked to see, over and over, how she sailed through spaces that I thought looked much too narrow for her chair to fit through.

It depends on the wheelchair. I have a newer powerchair (with a tilting base) that is 26 inches wide and a lot longer. (I do not bring it to Disney but instead use my petite 22" chair.) The new one, while comfier, is really too big to maneuver well into my HA van or tight corridors. An ADA pathway is supposed to be at least 30-36 inches wide. The "tightness" comes when you round those corners of Buzz or Finding Nemo. The wider the wheelchair the wider the turning radius required.

Since Disney is lumping ECVs into the wheelchair category, I honestly think they need to redefine what they consider an ADA queue. An ECV is much longer and therefore has a much bigger turning radius than a wheelchair. That's why they can be so difficult for newbies to drive and get hung up on corners so often. The rear of an ECV is wider than the front which throws many newbies off.

My last trip to EPCOT I was in Finding Nemo when I encountered a perfect example of what goes wrong in a narrow queue with an ECV. (Caveat: I like driving thru the Nemo queue with it's dark, twisty turns. It's an obstacle course for wheelies. Provided I only go to it when there is no line. Just me and the pathway.)

I made may way (happily) through the first section of twists then stopped dead in the second as I encountered a lady in front of me with a broken ECV. It was a rental, which are notoriously overused and prone to breaking. Poor dear tried and tried to get her ECV working again. Her family helped. The CM on duty tried to help. Thing kept beep beep beeping at her. (Mechanical issues.) Behind me were three other ECVs and a manual wheelchair followed by about 100 pedestrians. Now my powerchair is on the small size (22 inches wide) so I could squeeze around the broken ECV, but the other wheelies behind me were stuck.

Between my mechanically-inclined cousin and I we managed to get the broken ECV working and direct the pedestrians around us.

But the experience begs the question: what happens when you have an ECV broken-down inside Finding Nemo, TSM, Buzz or all the other queues that are really just big enough for a small wheelchair? Sometimes ADA regs are not sufficient for the situation they were written. (which explains why handicapped parking is pretty much useless for handicapped vans... most ADA regulated spaces are for car dimensions not vans with ramps)

I can envision one of the unintended consequences of DAS is that Disney is going to get a hard lesson in what should be considered an accessible queue. And exactly what do you do with a guest who cannot stand for more than 20 minutes, but you've told to get an ECV and then told they cannot use it in a 20+ minute queue? Not everyone can push themselves in a manual chair and not every guest travels with a party that can push them. So you let the ECVs into a queue not meant to accommodate them, one breaks down or gets caught on a tight turn and the WHOLE LINE shuts down in the sudden traffic jam. Or people start climbing over wheelies (which some do anyway) creating a moblike scene. So not pretty. That's when you end up with personal injury lawsuits and Disney at the heart of it.

The very worst queue for wheelies in WDW right now is IASW. This one suffers from that very circumstance of being too narrow to swing a cat or turn and retreat. After being caught inside it last March I learned my lesson to avoid it UNLESS I can get down to the very bottom unencumbered. Shame because it used to be a very easy to handle wheelchair queue BEFORE the remodel. People who design these things really should be required to go about the parks in a wheelchair and ECV themselves for a week first.

 

[BroganMc]

@brogranmc did you know Osborne lights usually run an hour past park close? Just making sure, sounds like a cool tradition I hope you can continue this NYE

I stay until the last song is played. Then the lights go out and we say goodbye for another year. It is a beautiful tradition. My family also puts together a large Christmas train garden in my house complete with a Magic Kingdom section: monorail, Castle, train station, Emporium, rides, characters and a big screen TV backdrop to play all the WDW fireworks and holiday decor I've filmed over the years. Being at Osborne on NYE (and on Main Street MK the night before) until and after park closing is like being inside our family train garden. That's why I love it so much.

(I just need to stay out of the rumors threads here. I just read one from July that said they WEREN'T going to put up Osborne Lights next year for construction purposes. I'm really hoping that was disproved and I just haven't read it yet. DHS without Osborne is like Christmas without Santa.)

I don't even know how I could abuse walking up a curb cut out.

By parking yourself, your family or (my personal favorite) your child's stroller on it while you contemplate your navel. Unfortunately having to say "Excuse me, I need the ramp" is something a wheelie must say at least three times a day in a Disney park. Unintended I know, but it happens. That's what I was referring to as "abuse".

Bathrooms we've debated to death, they are not marked reserved like parking and certain bus seats neither are the curb cut outs. I even use the handicapped accessible entrances to attractions, we guests share the ADA accessible entrances to attractions they are not reserved either for disabled. The definition of accessible in ADA is not reserved, it is however an indicator that it is accessible, nothing more.

Bathrooms are a pet peeve of mine. In most places they are clearly marked with a wheelchair symbol just like every wheelchair seat on a bus or handicapped parking spot. The definition is clearly "Stall For The Disabled". There are guidelines that regulate their design and how they can be outfitted. Putting a baby changing station inside one violates the rules just as mounting those humongous toilet paper rolls under the grab bar is. Yet business will do it sometimes until they get violated or sued. Then they'll try to argue for an exemption and hilarity ensues.

I really wish we taught better etiquette on a HA stall's use so people understood. The priority goes to the disabled. That's what it is designed and regulated for. If there are no other options available then it may be used by a non-disabled guest. Since there are fewer HA stalls than regular stalls, I would hope everyone had enough courtesy to share the resource with a deference to need. When I see a wheelchair or disabled person arrive at the stall while I'm in one, I politely expedite my routine so I can vacate the stall sooner. (Because once I've "gone" my need is not as great as the person waiting outside who hasn't "gone".) Same goes for a non-disabled person. If you see signs of a disabled person arriving, then don't dawdle or act like you own the place because you got there first. The "abuse" I speak of comes in when people who are not disabled either race to snap up the stall ahead of a disabled person they see (rare but does happen) or uses the stall much longer than is really necessary (like using it as a changing room, checking e-mail, talking on the phone, having a war with your child). The worst "abuse" situation I ever encountered was a woman who kept her son inside the HA stall for 20 minutes arguing with him over whether he had to go. I can handle the 2-3 minute wait for someone to use a stall, but that was just ridiculous.

FWIW those HA hotel rooms are held back from regular booking until the last possible minute so it is available to a disabled guest. They get released to non-disabled guests only after there appears to be no demand for it. That's not the same as "abuse". Now if you were to book an HA room when you didn't need it because you thought it gave you some perk, that would be abusive. If a hotel didn't hold back the room from inventory but assigned it to whoever booked first, that would be abusive. It's gotten a lot better with hotel bookings since they updated ADA regs to make these rooms visible to online bookings. Now guests can see what is available and those who do not like the HA rooms (there are many who dislike the roll-in showers) can book according to their needs.

And that is the premise of ADA compliant, inclusion. Not 'this is mine,mine, mine.' That is as wrong as lacking inclusion. I love those birds.

Best entrance to an attraction IMHO.

i hope you understand my point better now. It's not that I expect things to go unused but rather it irks me when things designated for the disabled are not available because someone without the need assumes they are entitled to use it simply because it is available. That's the "mine mine mine" attitude I see at play. People who claimed GAC and rented wheelchairs or refuse to vacate HA bus seats because they claim "it's publicly available and I'm the public" end up taking away from the very people these things are created to serve. One answer is to take away all the special accommodations so these cheaters can't abuse it. I find that a harsh policy because it also takes it away from the people who need it. Just because my 9 yo nephew is whining that he doesn't get a birthday present at his 7 yo brother's birthday party, doesn't mean I should not give the 7 yo a present. You tell the abuser/cheater no and then ignore him.

 

[flynnibus]

Bathrooms are a pet peeve of mine. In most places they are clearly marked with a wheelchair symbol just like every wheelchair seat on a bus or handicapped parking spot. The definition is clearly "Stall For The Disabled". There are guidelines that regulate their design and how they can be outfitted. Putting a baby changing station inside one violates the rules just as mounting those humongous toilet paper rolls under the grab bar is. Yet business will do it sometimes until they get violated or sued. Then they'll try to argue for an exemption and hilarity ensues.

I really wish we taught better etiquette on a HA stall's use so people understood. The priority goes to the disabled. That's what it is designed and regulated for

No they aren't - they are built to be handicap ACCESSIBLE - not priority, not exclusive, nothing. They are mandated that a facility have them so a handicapped individual is not excluded. They are marked so someone can identify which stall will have the amenities needed - not to say 'out of bounds' or the like. The ADA law dictates they be available - not prioritized for the disabled.

Allowing the disabled over the non is about courtesy - not mandate.

 

[BroganMc]

Then why did they leech off the GAC and use it as a FOTL pass instead of waiting in the standby queues like they were supposed to? These losers cost my kid and all those who are wheelchair bound and can't transfer immediate access to a ride so we could "hurry up and wait" for the wheelchair accessible ride vehicle. Now the truly disabled are going to have to wait a lot longer than the average guest just because a bunch of lazy bottom-feeders took advantage. I have every right to be upset with those who abused the system.

I can relate to this frustration and experience. You see it a lot whenever you are waiting for a wheelchair vehicle. Unfortunately DAS does nothing to prevent it from happening.

I have no first hand knowledge but I think that you are making assumptions that just aren't true. Gac was never for wheelchair bound folks and DAS to a large extent isn't either. I don't see anywhere in what has been described a situation where wheelchair bound are going to be treated any different then they always were even way before there was such a thing as GAC or DAS or even Fastpass, for that matter. I would expect that a communication effort this large is going to run into a few misinformed CM's and some that just plain misunderstood the intent. But it will get straightened out. Inclusion may prevent the family of a wheelchair bound person non-rider from extra privileges but that was not who the system was supposed benefit. Other then that, I really see no real downside to anyone that cannot transfer on their own.

And here's where we get into my initial gripe about DAS. Before the new program I talked to a lot of people in WDW about the new program. Several CMs rejoiced in the idea of it because they saw it as a way to eliminate the "miracle walkers" as mr spalding described them. I heard lots of stories about what they believed to be apparent faking/cheating (not those borderline folks who are ambulatory) and how with DAS they would be denied. CMs were downright gleeful at the prospect that now only the "real truly disabled looking" guests would be given the extra help.

But the DAS rules specifically state that guests in wheelchairs are not ALLOWED to use DAS. (I've quoted the wording on this thread.) The intention, of course, is that guests who use wheels to overcome stamina, balance or other limited mobility issues have no need of also avoiding a queue line. This does seem to make it impossible for the cheater/faker to infiltrate and abuse the system. Right?

Wrong! See now that person just needs to claim autism or anxiety or some other disability that equates to "line avoidance" issues and they magically qualify for a service denied to the person who's main disability is served by being confined to a wheelchair and wheelchair ride vehicles. So I politely pointed out to those nice gleeful ride CMs they are more likely to see more perfectly healthy looking ambulatory guests using DAS while the wheelchair-bound folks will be ushered into the long Standby queues. (A child with Autism looks very normal compared to a child with severe Cerebral Palsy.)

That's the unintended consequence of the new program. In order to exclude the cheaters, you're actually including them while specifically excluding the people you really meant to help.

Now we can argue over what could possible stop a wheelchair-bound person from being able to enter a queue all day. (I've tried to illustrate experiences of pathway problems, exits and drive home the point that people with disabilities so severe they are wheelchair-bound tend to have much more fragile bodies and medical conditions.) But the simple fact is DAS is a program designed to stop cheating; not assist the disabled.

The "tweaking" Disney will be doing over the next months and year is figuring out how to adapt their rules to serve the people they actually want to serve and have served for years while also keeping up a bold pretention of keeping the cheaters out.

This is how GAC got adapted from just serving those with hidden disabilities to include the severely physically wheelchair-bound disabled. But make no mistake. It's all just a game of moving goal posts. Once the cheaters find a way inside, they'll have to change it again.

 

[BroganMc]

No they aren't - they are built to be handicap ACCESSIBLE - not priority, not exclusive, nothing. They are mandated that a facility have them so a handicapped individual is not excluded. They are marked so someone can identify which stall will have the amenities needed - not to say 'out of bounds' or the like. The ADA law dictates they be available - not prioritized for the disabled.

Allowing the disabled over the non is about courtesy - not mandate.

That depends on the jurisdiction. Did you know in California it is a fine-able offense to use a handicapped stall if you are not disabled? It'll cost you $400+ to find out.

At the very least it is proper etiquette to give priority to a disabled person for the handicapped stalls. Just because you can use it, doesn't mean you should when there are other choices available to you. Everyone understands that if the stalls are occupied and the HA one is the only one left, it's perfectly acceptable to use it. But if you have 10 other regular stalls open and free for your use, going to the HA one is showing your false sense of entitlement. Just hope you're not in a jurisdiction that has legislated against you doing it.

 

[luv]

Then why did they leech off the GAC and use it as a FOTL pass instead of waiting in the standby queues like they were supposed to? These losers cost my kid and all those who are wheelchair bound and can't transfer immediate access to a ride so we could "hurry up and wait" for the wheelchair accessible ride vehicle. Now the truly disabled are going to have to wait a lot longer than the average guest just because a bunch of lazy bottom-feeders took advantage. I have every right to be upset with those who abused the system.

People who need wheelchairs aren't leeching.

The leeches are the people who didn't have real problems, but used the GAC, anyway. These people were rarely, if ever, found in wheelchairs.

I, too, am angry with those people.

 

[flynnibus]

That depends on the jurisdiction. Did you know in California it is a fine-able offense to use a handicapped stall if you are not disabled? It'll cost you $400+ to find out.

Well I thought we were talking about WDW here... but I'd love to see the Cali Statue citation as well. I can't find any...

At the very least it is proper etiquette to give priority to a disabled person for the handicapped stalls. Just because you can use it, doesn't mean you should when there are other choices available to you

Well that boils back to the jist of most of the hate in this thread... people believing they are OWED something vs what is courtesy. I don't find it surprising at all that the trend carries over to more than just the access in theme parks...

 

[minninedaisy74]

That depends on the jurisdiction. Did you know in California it is a fine-able offense to use a handicapped stall if you are not disabled? It'll cost you $400+ to find out.

At the very least it is proper etiquette to give priority to a disabled person for the handicapped stalls. Just because you can use it, doesn't mean you should when there are other choices available to you. Everyone understands that if the stalls are occupied and the HA one is the only one left, it's perfectly acceptable to use it. But if you have 10 other regular stalls open and free for your use, going to the HA one is showing your false sense of entitlement. Just hope you're not in a jurisdiction that has legislated against you doing it.

Then they need to stop putting the changing tables in the handicap stalls.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I can relate to this frustration and experience. You see it a lot whenever you are waiting for a wheelchair vehicle. Unfortunately DAS does nothing to prevent it from happening.



And here's where we get into my initial gripe about DAS. Before the new program I talked to a lot of people in WDW about the new program. Several CMs rejoiced in the idea of it because they saw it as a way to eliminate the "miracle walkers" as mr spalding described them. I heard lots of stories about what they believed to be apparent faking/cheating (not those borderline folks who are ambulatory) and how with DAS they would be denied. CMs were downright gleeful at the prospect that now only the "real truly disabled looking" guests would be given the extra help.

But the DAS rules specifically state that guests in wheelchairs are not ALLOWED to use DAS. (I've quoted the wording on this thread.) The intention, of course, is that guests who use wheels to overcome stamina, balance or other limited mobility issues have no need of also avoiding a queue line. This does seem to make it impossible for the cheater/faker to infiltrate and abuse the system. Right?

Wrong! See now that person just needs to claim autism or anxiety or some other disability that equates to "line avoidance" issues and they magically qualify for a service denied to the person who's main disability is served by being confined to a wheelchair and wheelchair ride vehicles. So I politely pointed out to those nice gleeful ride CMs they are more likely to see more perfectly healthy looking ambulatory guests using DAS while the wheelchair-bound folks will be ushered into the long Standby queues. (A child with Autism looks very normal compared to a child with severe Cerebral Palsy.)

That's the unintended consequence of the new program. In order to exclude the cheaters, you're actually including them while specifically excluding the people you really meant to help.

Now we can argue over what could possible stop a wheelchair-bound person from being able to enter a queue all day. (I've tried to illustrate experiences of pathway problems, exits and drive home the point that people with disabilities so severe they are wheelchair-bound tend to have much more fragile bodies and medical conditions.) But the simple fact is DAS is a program designed to stop cheating; not assist the disabled.

The "tweaking" Disney will be doing over the next months and year is figuring out how to adapt their rules to serve the people they actually want to serve and have served for years while also keeping up a bold pretention of keeping the cheaters out.

This is how GAC got adapted from just serving those with hidden disabilities to include the severely physically wheelchair-bound disabled. But make no mistake. It's all just a game of moving goal posts. Once the cheaters find a way inside, they'll have to change it again.

I think what I keep trying to say and you keep using thousands of words to ignore is that they never did rely on GAC to take care of someone that was wheelchair bound. If they need to use a different vehicle to transfer a person into it would make no sense at all to make them just stay in a line until they could get to it. DAS from my understanding is also not essential to that same treatment for a wheelchair bound person, but it will help immediately identify that need without lengthy discourse with a CM. One also has to understand that the DAS is supposed to identify the needs more clearly. If as you say, it is obvious, even if you didn't have a DAS card you will be taken care of in the same way AS NEEDED. It will specify quicker, no sit in line, service, just not necessarily the "well, I'm here, take care of me now" situation, but it might do just that depending on the need. In other words, if you need to go in immediately without delay, that is what is going to happen. If you don't need too, it won't...I don't understand what the problem is with something that gives you what you need.

 

[Gabe1]

I stay until the last song is played. Then the lights go out and we say goodbye for another year. It is a beautiful tradition. My family also puts together a large Christmas train garden in my house complete with a Magic Kingdom section: monorail, Castle, train station, Emporium, rides, characters and a big screen TV backdrop to play all the WDW fireworks and holiday decor I've filmed over the years. Being at Osborne on NYE (and on Main Street MK the night before) until and after park closing is like being inside our family train garden. That's why I love it so much.

(I just need to stay out of the rumors threads here. I just read one from July that said they WEREN'T going to put up Osborne Lights next year for construction purposes. I'm really hoping that was disproved and I just haven't read it yet. DHS without Osborne is like Christmas without Santa.)



By parking yourself, your family or (my personal favorite) your child's stroller on it while you contemplate your navel. Unfortunately having to say "Excuse me, I need the ramp" is something a wheelie must say at least three times a day in a Disney park. Unintended I know, but it happens. That's what I was referring to as "abuse".



Bathrooms are a pet peeve of mine. In most places they are clearly marked with a wheelchair symbol just like every wheelchair seat on a bus or handicapped parking spot. The definition is clearly "Stall For The Disabled". There are guidelines that regulate their design and how they can be outfitted. Putting a baby changing station inside one violates the rules just as mounting those humongous toilet paper rolls under the grab bar is. Yet business will do it sometimes until they get violated or sued. Then they'll try to argue for an exemption and hilarity ensues.

I really wish we taught better etiquette on a HA stall's use so people understood. The priority goes to the disabled. That's what it is designed and regulated for. If there are no other options available then it may be used by a non-disabled guest. Since there are fewer HA stalls than regular stalls, I would hope everyone had enough courtesy to share the resource with a deference to need. When I see a wheelchair or disabled person arrive at the stall while I'm in one, I politely expedite my routine so I can vacate the stall sooner. (Because once I've "gone" my need is not as great as the person waiting outside who hasn't "gone".) Same goes for a non-disabled person. If you see signs of a disabled person arriving, then don't dawdle or act like you own the place because you got there first. The "abuse" I speak of comes in when people who are not disabled either race to snap up the stall ahead of a disabled person they see (rare but does happen) or uses the stall much longer than is really necessary (like using it as a changing room, checking e-mail, talking on the phone, having a war with your child). The worst "abuse" situation I ever encountered was a woman who kept her son inside the HA stall for 20 minutes arguing with him over whether he had to go. I can handle the 2-3 minute wait for someone to use a stall, but that was just ridiculous.

FWIW those HA hotel rooms are held back from regular booking until the last possible minute so it is available to a disabled guest. They get released to non-disabled guests only after there appears to be no demand for it. That's not the same as "abuse". Now if you were to book an HA room when you didn't need it because you thought it gave you some perk, that would be abusive. If a hotel didn't hold back the room from inventory but assigned it to whoever booked first, that would be abusive. It's gotten a lot better with hotel bookings since they updated ADA regs to make these rooms visible to online bookings. Now guests can see what is available and those who do not like the HA rooms (there are many who dislike the roll-in showers) can book according to their needs.



Best entrance to an attraction IMHO.

i hope you understand my point better now. It's not that I expect things to go unused but rather it irks me when things designated for the disabled are not available because someone without the need assumes they are entitled to use it simply because it is available. That's the "mine mine mine" attitude I see at play. People who claimed GAC and rented wheelchairs or refuse to vacate HA bus seats because they claim "it's publicly available and I'm the public" end up taking away from the very people these things are created to serve. One answer is to take away all the special accommodations so these cheaters can't abuse it. I find that a harsh policy because it also takes it away from the people who need it. Just because my 9 yo nephew is whining that he doesn't get a birthday present at his 7 yo brother's birthday party, doesn't mean I should not give the 7 yo a present. You tell the abuser/cheater no and then ignore him.

I understand, I just don't agree.

Dealing with policies for children with disabilities that parents want them in inclusion classrooms our approach is very different. Our big buses even accommodate a wheelchair now, so no special buses and students get boarded where they come in the route in inclusion. Unless there is a medical condition which we have to deal with differently, they all line up and use the restrooms in the order they are in line, wheelchair students too. They are guided to be self sufficient and taught independence and not to be catered to. Our tables are all accessible so they sit where they want and with whom they want at lunch. Our doors all accommodate wheelchairs. The policies are written not to treat any student differently. If parents want a contained classroom our district complies and there are self contained classrooms that do not attempt to teach inclusion or independence. In certain situations and types of disabilities I do understand those parents requests it just can't cut both ways.

I'm not sure where you are from but you would likely enjoy visiting the University of Illinois where my DD attends. They are the countries leader in accessibility however everything is shared except parking where there is different laws that define who has access and who does not along with how many spots. If the dorm has 3 showers and one is accessible everyone uses it or it would be a nightmare for the community of students. Same for the restroom stalls. There is signage to indicate which one will accommodate but it is not an indicator of reserved. I don't know where that presumption started as it is not part of ADA compliant laws. Everything is on a first come basis. Everyone waits in line for books, buses, food. The only difference in the cafeteria is wheelchair students are given a tray where other students are not. U of I was the first University to become adaptive after the end of WWII. They have the highest percentage of wheelchair students. Watching these student I am in awe. The campus is massive and these particular students acclimate to college life like they are exactly the same as everyone else and they have made themselves equal not special. You never see these students say that is mine or unwilling to share resources. They have a mind set that I admire immensely. They do get hired because these students have the reputation for being self sufficient, productive and acclimate well into their chosen fields without turning human resource departments upside down.

I think what works best at UoI is the mutual respect for resources and each other. Most of these students have ACT scores between 30-34 so you are dealing with an intelligent group of students. There isn't the friction or demands between students like there seems to be among guests at WDW. WDW like UofI is very accessible but the tone of expectations and special services is very different.

 

[Gabe1]

That depends on the jurisdiction. Did you know in California it is a fine-able offense to use a handicapped stall if you are not disabled? It'll cost you $400+ to find out.

At the very least it is proper etiquette to give priority to a disabled person for the handicapped stalls. Just because you can use it, doesn't mean you should when there are other choices available to you. Everyone understands that if the stalls are occupied and the HA one is the only one left, it's perfectly acceptable to use it. But if you have 10 other regular stalls open and free for your use, going to the HA one is showing your false sense of entitlement. Just hope you're not in a jurisdiction that has legislated against you doing it.

There is a difference between what everyone feels is proper etiquette and what is ADA compliant law. I just read the California State Law for ADA compliant section and am not finding that law. Please link me to the Cali State law.

I cannot imagine how that law could be written. How is it enforced and fined? It is against the law to ask for proof of disability to be serviced. Do you get a special ID card for ADA bathroom use? Who polices the toilets?
I never saw this at Disneyland or any signage to a $400 fine if you pee in the inappropriate stall. Handicapped parking you immediately find the California Laws.

Boy I want to hear more about this..........

 

[Gabe1]

Then they need to stop putting the changing tables in the handicap stalls.

On a whole you do not see this in new facilities. You do see it in retrofitted buildings. Now that mens rooms are also getting changing tables in retro fitted restrooms you are seeing more shared special needs spaces. When there is only so many square feet in a retrofitted restroom they tend to be both ADA compliant and special needs.

 

[asianway]

I stay until the last song is played. Then the lights go out and we say goodbye for another year. It is a beautiful tradition. My family also puts together a large Christmas train garden in my house complete with a Magic Kingdom section: monorail, Castle, train station, Emporium, rides, characters and a big screen TV backdrop to play all the WDW fireworks and holiday decor I've filmed over the years. Being at Osborne on NYE (and on Main Street MK the night before) until and after park closing is like being inside our family train garden. That's why I love it so much.

(I just need to stay out of the rumors threads here. I just read one from July that said they WEREN'T going to put up Osborne Lights next year for construction purposes. I'm really hoping that was disproved and I just haven't read it yet. DHS without Osborne is like Christmas without Santa.)

As of now, the rumor mill says SOA(and Osborne) are safe for now - Indy and AIE are on the immediate chopping block.

 

[flynnibus]

Boy I want to hear more about this..........

I said the same... I'm not holding my breath

 

[minninedaisy74]

People who need wheelchairs aren't leeching.

The leeches are the people who didn't have real problems, but used the GAC, anyway. These people were rarely, if ever, found in wheelchairs.

I, too, am angry with those people.

Yes they are found riding EVC 's insisting on waking up sleeping children on the bus the just rolled up to.

 

[Gabe1]

And a bit of lightness....a service dog in training. He'd love the flowers at Disney.

 

[BroganMc]

I think what I keep trying to say and you keep using thousands of words to ignore is that they never did rely on GAC to take care of someone that was wheelchair bound. If they need to use a different vehicle to transfer a person into it would make no sense at all to make them just stay in a line until they could get to it. DAS from my understanding is also not essential to that same treatment for a wheelchair bound person, but it will help immediately identify that need without lengthy discourse with a CM. One also has to understand that the DAS is supposed to identify the needs more clearly. If as you say, it is obvious, even if you didn't have a DAS card you will be taken care of in the same way AS NEEDED. It will specify quicker, no sit in line, service, just not necessarily the "well, I'm here, take care of me now" situation, but it might do just that depending on the need. In other words, if you need to go in immediately without delay, that is what is going to happen. If you don't need too, it won't...I don't understand what the problem is with something that gives you what you need.

I think the confusion you and I are encountering is that Disney did away with the wheelchair access lines when they switched to FP and GAC. (A couple notable exceptions exist like Spaceship Earth and American Adventure. I think Splash and Space Mountain too. I can't ride those so have never experienced the access.) It used to be that if you were a wheelchair user and couldn't transfer you'd be directed to an alternate enhance to wait for appropriate boarding. This meant those wheelchair cars had their own line. Now you proceed thru the Standby or FP line before you are then diverted into a wheelchair car line. In some cases they divert you halfway thru those other lines to equal the wait, but in most cases that diversion happens at the actual regular boarding area. That's why it always takes longer for a guest to use a wheelchair car than not. It's not as much a function of their being too much demand for the car as the line forming after regular boarding.

Disney did this because they just don't have space to form a FP and wheelchair car line any sooner. To compensate they allowed guests to get a GAC which allowed them to enter FP and go directly to the wheelchair car line. DAS takes that away either by flat or denying these guests from getting one or given a Return Time that is based on the longer Standby time. That's why the policy specifically states guests with wheelchairs will encounter longer waits.

There's an interesting proposal on another form that may help to correct this flaw. It is that instead of giving a Return Time for a ride guests are given a Blackout Time to use the pass again. They'd be admitted to FP right away but be given a time based on Standby when they'd be able to use the pass again. So you'd go to TSM with a posted 2hr Standby, be admitted to FP and have a blackout of 2hrs before you could use the card to go on another ride. If it took you 30 mins to get thru the wheelchair line this is just part of your 2 hr blackout period. As it stands now, that same guest may spend 2.5 hrs to rude TSM: 2hrs waiting outside the queue and another 30mins inside the wheelchair line.

If I understand people of switching to DAS it is to give every guest the same experience in terms of line waiting. But it is inherently biased against those who need special access vehicles. They must always wait longer. So it is not providing the same experience. That is where you could argue a violation of ADA.

 

[BroganMc]

I said the same... I'm not holding my breath

I'll find the exact post for you guys when I'm not on a tablet. It refers to a report from someone fined in Huntington Beach, CA for using the designated HA stall when not disabled. Fine was in the $200s (I got that wrong). Person fought it in court and lost.

 

[willtravel]

Are there any reports on how well DAS is going at WDW?

 

[BroganMc]

Well that boils back to the jist of most of the hate in this thread... people believing they are OWED something vs what is courtesy. I don't find it surprising at all that the trend carries over to more than just the access in theme parks...

What I see of the "hate" (as you put it though I'd call it confusion in points of view that fuels the vitriol) is some people who presume a person requesting consideration for a special need is somehow getting something better than them. Not what they're actually doing in trying to have an equal experience by making up for a disadvantage with an accommodation.

It comes off as being oblivious to the difficulties others face and concentrating solely on the accommodation as a perk instead of making up for a disadvantage.

Think of it this way. Two people are traveling down a path. One is walking the other has wheels. The person walking starts to feel their feet hurt and says to to the person with the wheels how lucky they are to have a seat. They may even think it is so unfair that person always has a seat and why can't they. The wheelchair person is thinking about how their backside hurts from all the sitting or how nice it would be to be able to get up and stretch their legs without enduring god awful pain. Or knowing that not being able to use their legs means their digestive system doesn't work properly as well. The difference in these perceptions of what the accommodation means and provides doesn't become apparent until both get to the end of the pathway. That's where there are three steps. The person walking climbs the steps and continues going. The wheelchair person is stopped and can go no further or must look for an alternate route. And hence you have the old allegory "I felt sorry for myself for having no shoes until I met the man who had no feet."

I imagine the fine I referenced in Huntington Beach came as a result of people using the HA stalls as changing rooms oblivious to the fact they were excluding a wheelchair person from using the accommodation set aside to make up for their limitation. When a problem gets bad enough someone has to make a law to correct it.