We may get budget cuts, but take a look!!!

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Originally posted by djmatthews
We need to look back to '92 when MGM opened, this park was very empty at the time, with only a handful of attractions,

Er..1989!! It really was that long ago! The original MGM lineup was small, but the attractions were quality - Superstar Television, Monster Sound Show, THE GREAT MOVIE RIDE, a 2 hour backstage tour, Here come the Muppets, Magic of Disney Animation, plus within the year Star Tours and Indiana Jones Stunt Show Spectacular. Not to mention great themeing, attention to detail and one of the best firework displays ever performed in a Disney Park. WDS has been open 2 years now, and they have added a few lame mini stage shows and a toilet block.
 

Pat X

New Member
I had the opportunity to visit the WDS last New Year's and I enjoyed my time there. Was it a smaller park? Yes, but all Disney parks start off small and grow over time.

I do think the theme at WDS is more cohesive than MGM where things are kinda placed a bit haphazzardly. The WDS studios is supposed to be like you are walking into a real studio whereas MGM is based around the "hollywood that never was" concept. For example, at MGM you have a 1930's hotel next to a current day recording studio...huh? Doesn't make thematic sense.

There are parts of MGM today that are just as "industrial" and "unthemed" as the WDS. The walkway where the ABC Commisary is located is pretty bland. What about the eatery area by the "Honey, I shrunk the Kids Playset?" Some of the walls are just made out of metal sheets.

As far as some of the ques at WDS being "unthemed," well what about some of the ques at Epcot. Spaceship Earth's que is pretty bland...it just has a mural. The Land's que is really nothing to look at....again, just a bunch of environmental quotes. Also, remember the original Journey Into Imagination que? IT just had a painting on the wall with Dreamfinder. Boy, WDI was cheap back then too I guess.

Finally, I would encourage you to all read the following article from Laughing Place reviewing the WDS. The author did a great job of seeing the little details and thought processes behind the park.

http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID505650.asp
 

cherrynegra

Well-Known Member
The Disney Studios in Paris is another shining example of lack of imagination and imagineering by suits. And I don't know if it's necessarily a good thing to have a Disney park just for the sake of having a Disney park.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Originally posted by cherrynegra
The Disney Studios in Paris is another shining example of lack of imagination and imagineering by suits. And I don't know if it's necessarily a good thing to have a Disney park just for the sake of having a Disney park.

Well said cherrynegra.

WDS may be supposed to be like walking onto a real studio, but even these on the most part don`t look as cheap as that. The truth is its a cheap inferior excuse for what was once going to be Disney-MGM Studios: Europe`.
 

civileng68

Account Suspended
.

Originally posted by grandmath
1) The entrance price is not 59 Euro :mad: but 39 EURO with a 5pm access to DL Park. Or 49 EURO for a one-day hopper pass so to say "it is not worth it" isn't fair anymore.

2) Walt on the partner statue always show the exit in every park ;)

Seriously, I too think WDS is the worst Disney park on earth. But to say people leave after 4 hours in the park, it isn't true. Most guests leave at around 5 PM. And most guests really enjoy the attractions. Cheering and clapping at the end of Cinemagique and Armageddon. Loving RRC. Amazed by Moteurs...Action! (people leave after 30 min? Not true!!! One week ago, I was the first to leave in the entire audience (it was packed), 5 minutes before end) Kids sing with and enjoy Animagique. So what's the problem?

-The size of the park
-The theming of the outside, with remains sub-standart for Disney and totally non-magical
-Horrible and boring queulines
-Not enough attractions

Some parts of the park are poorly executed compared to MGM or DCA (Animation tour & Tram Tour) but that doesn't count because less than 1% of the guests notice.

But as you see, the park is pretty much easy to repair. We have some good attractions, we have one of the best looking Disney park entrance, the studio theme is attractive worldwide. Throw in a couple of "blockbuster attractions", a couple of C or D-Tickets (one of which a small dark ride), a few street sets and a nightime show, along with a few more shops and restaurants. Enhance the theming, make it more refined. What we dont have is money :brick: 300 million $ would pretty much transform and save the park.

That said, TOT will definately help in the near future.



There's one problem..................you are from france and completely bias.

I think the park should be moved from Paris to another country, and don't worry Grandmath, we wouldnt ask France to help. :) WHOOPS! SLIP!
 

DigitalDisney

New Member
WDS makes DCA look like DLP or the MK. Seriously, folks, a lot of people complain that DCA is lacking, but it is a complete park when compared to WDS. A lot of rides are off the shelf, but there is also some quality innovation and some great theming, none of which is present at WDS (with the possible exception of the auto show)

I felt Rock N Roller Coaster was themed nicely. Ok, so its a light show, but those lights were designed and synched up with the ride and are slightly random so your ride can be a little different each time you ride. ITs got a definate theme to it (making of a Rock video).
I've heard that it actually is a pleasant ride to go on. The exterior theming is horrible, but
the ride is allegedly very thrilling and somewhat disorienting. The ride's exterior certainly isn't very inviting. :(

Walt on the partner statue always show the exit in every park
This is true. However, I'm willing to bet that there isn't anything magical about the W&M statue at WDS. At WDW and DL, you have the castle behind the statue...and when the fireworks show is running, it sends a shiver down your spine.

Was it a smaller park? Yes, but all Disney parks start off small and grow over time.
Not true.

You've got to admit that the "original" parks (DL, MK, TDL, DLP)
were all pretty well equipped.

Here's the thing though. The secondary parks were all reasonably well done too. Epcot was loaded with attractions and details. TDS is one of the best parks in the world. DCA, while somewhat cheap, does have a lot of attractions, innovation, and is very well themed. WDS, on the other hand, doesn't offer much in any aspect.

Also consider the status of parks after 2 years. 2 years after MGM opened, we had Star Tours, MuppetVision, HISTK Playground, and Beauty and the Beast added to the roster. AK added Asia within 2 years. What has WDS added? Nothing

Another thing to note is the level of theming in the parks. Parks like AK and MGM survived because they were immersive and extremely well themed. AK transports you to lush jungles, the heart of Africa, and primeval forests. MGM sends you to the golden age of Hollywood, and New York. Where does WDS take you?

The WDS studios is supposed to be like you are walking into a real studio whereas MGM is based around the "hollywood that never was" concept.
MGM combines both themes, and more. When MGM first opened, it was supposed to be like a real working movie studio. The backstage tour took you through actual soundstages and showed you how movies were made. There was a real focus on the production of movies. Of course, Hollywood Blvd and Echo Lake provide the fun, themed golden age of Hollywood.

For example, at MGM you have a 1930's hotel next to a current day recording studio...huh? Doesn't make thematic sense.
I believe that this is because of the power requirements for both TOT and RNRC. Both rides require a lot of power, and a power subsystem was already built for TOT. Since RNRC needs a lot of power too, it was placed right next door to TOT.

There are parts of MGM today that are just as "industrial" and "unthemed" as the WDS.
Those areas are called the backlot

The walkway where the ABC Commisary is located is pretty bland.
Sort of. There are some small details to look at. It is also a minor, less-travelled walkway.

What about the eatery area by the "Honey, I shrunk the Kids Playset?" Some of the walls are just made out of metal sheets.
It's in the backlot area. This is the part of the park that's supposed to look like a real studio (to use your defense of WDS)

You're missing the big picture. Every park has flaws in some area. You're using small, isolated examples from other parks to defend what apparantly happens on a grand scale at WDS.

Whew
 

grandmath

Active Member
Re: .

Originally posted by civileng68
There's one problem..................you are from france and completely bias.


This is one stupid thought :rolleyes: . And after you wonder why the pure AMERICAN model of Disneyland never worked here. I'm the first one to aknowlegde that WDS is the worst Disney park on the planet, so why do you say I'm bias? Besides, no luck, but DLRP will stay in France :wave: so it would be more intelligent to discuss what could be done to please the audience (and therefore the 40% french, and on that I'm perhaps more able than you to judge the park) and stop complaining about the location.

No offense, though, but your remark... well, was just useless.
 

BeachClubVillas

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Pat X
Finally, I would encourage you to all read the following article from Laughing Place reviewing the WDS. The author did a great job of seeing the little details and thought processes behind the park.

http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID505650.asp

That's exactly the problem!! We shouldn't have to look at the "little details" and the "thought processes behind the park" to find scenery and theming! This is Disney we're talking about, not Six Flags for crying out loud. I must say, all the pictures I've seen of DLP seem like the park is beautiful and definitely worth seeing. But the Studios definitely seem like a waste. I was hugely disappointed in that picture of RnRC! What was it, dropped in the middle of a parking lot?? At first glance, I thought it was a building from Pop Century!!
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Originally posted by BeachClubVillas
At first glance, I thought it was a building from Pop Century!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

DLP`s Disneyland Park (MK to Americans) = the best

DLP`s WDS = the worst

One of the worst things is that they are literally side by side.
 

Ultra Magnus

New Member
Rock 'n' Roller preshow time

Orlando's = in the region of minutes.

DLP's = 20 seconds . I know, I've timed it, that's how disappointed I was about the preshow compared to the Orlando one.

And to make it worse, you have to infer that you're supposed to be testing the rollercoaster for Aerosmith. Most people would not be able to get that in time. Orlando's one at least makes it obvious that you're trying to get to the concert in time.
 

civileng68

Account Suspended
Re: Re: .

Originally posted by grandmath
This is one stupid thought :rolleyes: . And after you wonder why the pure AMERICAN model of Disneyland never worked here. I'm the first one to aknowlegde that WDS is the worst Disney park on the planet, so why do you say I'm bias? Besides, no luck, but DLRP will stay in France :wave: so it would be more intelligent to discuss what could be done to please the audience (and therefore the 40% french, and on that I'm perhaps more able than you to judge the park) and stop complaining about the location.

No offense, though, but your remark... well, was just useless.


Well you are in fact aware that Paris or France anywhere, was not a first choice, and if it were not for the lure of special money to bring it in, there would be no Disney there.

Are you going to legitimately tell me Paris, France, the place where Americans are highly looked down upon because of big government and because we find ourselves bailing helpless countries out (not to mention one in particular) and the French think we're in everyone's business.

All I'm saying is that sure it's beautiful there in the winter but you cannot tell me that going to an amusement park is the best choice when it's freaking snowing outside? Cmon!
 

grandmath

Active Member
Re: Re: Re: .

Originally posted by civileng68
All I'm saying is that sure it's beautiful there in the winter but you cannot tell me that going to an amusement park is the best choice when it's freaking snowing outside? Cmon!

I already said in another topic that Christmas is now the busiest time at the Resort. They provide adequate entertainment for this kind of weather, and the majority of the park's attractions are "inside". Besides, it is the same (or even worse) weather at Tokyo and this park attracted (before Disney Sea opened) 17 million guests / year, more than the MK in Florida. It's time to understand that weather isn't an issue. Adapting the park and its attractions is the key, and remember the Resort targets people that are used to the weather. Sure, you won't go there for 1 week, but more people will go there for a week-end. It's different than in Florida but it can work! From Halloween to the Lion King Carnaval, and Christmas just in the middle of it all, yes, November-March is becoming as attractive as the summer season!!
 

DisneyFan 2000

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Re: Re: Re: Re: .

Originally posted by grandmath
I already said in another topic that Christmas is now the busiest time at the Resort. They provide adequate entertainment for this kind of weather, and the majority of the park's attractions are "inside". Besides, it is the same (or even worse) weather at Tokyo and this park attracted (before Disney Sea opened) 17 million guests / year, more than the MK in Florida. It's time to understand that weather isn't an issue. Adapting the park and its attractions is the key, and remember the Resort targets people that are used to the weather. Sure, you won't go there for 1 week, but more people will go there for a week-end. It's different than in Florida but it can work! From Halloween to the Lion King Carnaval, and Christmas just in the middle of it all, yes, November-March is becoming as attractive as the summer season!!

I'm with you on this! I never thought the weather was a rightful excuse for park failures! DLP needs to make itself attractive for the French, not try to improve the weather! From what I've seen, most of the park's attractions are indoors anyway!
 

civileng68

Account Suspended
Re: Re: Re: Re: .

Originally posted by grandmath
I already said in another topic that Christmas is now the busiest time at the Resort. They provide adequate entertainment for this kind of weather, and the majority of the park's attractions are "inside". Besides, it is the same (or even worse) weather at Tokyo and this park attracted (before Disney Sea opened) 17 million guests / year, more than the MK in Florida. It's time to understand that weather isn't an issue. Adapting the park and its attractions is the key, and remember the Resort targets people that are used to the weather. Sure, you won't go there for 1 week, but more people will go there for a week-end. It's different than in Florida but it can work! From Halloween to the Lion King Carnaval, and Christmas just in the middle of it all, yes, November-March is becoming as attractive as the summer season!!

Ok well I have another question then. Let's just say it's not the weather. It is a fact that attendances (yearly) are not even in the "ballpark" to what is needed to keep the place open and build bigger and better.

Not speaking about you on this but rather the country, government and people of the country. Could the attendances be because the French are so anti-American, especially right now? Could it be that we brought our Western style of entertainment to a country that is itself trying to figure out where it is? I say that in terms of the government moving to a secular state.

I am not bashing so please do not take it as that but it is becoming more and more obvious that the French want nothing to do with Americans, so could that be the reason, since Disney is the prime example of American entertainment?
 

grandmath

Active Member
The Disneyland Park was making money and attracted enough visitors. Anti americanism has nothing to do with the success of DLRP. It is not as extreme as you pretend it to be, trust me, not everyone says here: "I hate americans!! grrrr" It is not like that!

And the fact that Disney is american... some people were afraid at first, because they didn't know...they didn't know the concept, it was a first in Europe. But everyone loves it today, french included. The only ones that don't like DLRP are the ones who never went and won't ever go. Period.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Overall, Disneyland Paris IS successful (its the top visited park in Europe, I believe. Or was)

Whats killing it (WDS image aside) is the intrest payments on its original loans, and the debts this entails.... The Parks and resorts make money, just not enough to pay back the banks. I Think thats the jist of it - I was never good at economics.
 

civileng68

Account Suspended
management

Originally posted by marni1971
Overall, Disneyland Paris IS successful (its the top visited park in Europe, I believe. Or was)

Whats killing it (WDS image aside) is the intrest payments on its original loans, and the debts this entails.... The Parks and resorts make money, just not enough to pay back the banks. I Think thats the jist of it - I was never good at economics.

Ok then, so what in the world was management thinking? Ok, so we have a park that is doing well and bringing in money and with even making good money and being sucessful the park still can't pay bills. Who signed that document? That is outrageous if that is the reason that the park is not making the money on the books.

About Anti-Americanism, I'll take your word for it that it's not as bad as I feel. However, whether people come out and say it aloud or not, I can't help but feel that inside most despise us. I don't care because I'm not leaving this country, but, my point was that maybe it was hurting the parks, but I'll roll with you on this one.
 

Al

Well-Known Member
I recently spent a few days in DLP (my trip report is in the DLP forum).

I agree with some comments made about WDS, although we really enjoyed ourself, we were able to do the main attractions in under 2 hours. We went on the tram tour which was quite interesting, but did not have the feel of a real film studio. We went on armageddon special effects which I think is one of the highlights of the park, I would really recommend it. Finally, we went on the Rock n Rollercoaster (twice) which was good .. we weren't in WDW, so I didn't compare it, I took it for what it was, and enjoyed it. Part of the reason that I enjoyed it so much was that although it wasn't brillianty themed, it was a step up from what we have in the UK, and basically it was Disney....with my friends, and although lacking in numbers and not comparable to wdw, the rides are still good and better than many others in europe.

We then had the rest of the day to do the DL park, which we did pretty much all the attractions (except for the fantasyland ones). That was good for us, but I doubt it is for the management.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
civileng68 - As we know, DL and WDW opened with little (or no) hotels... by the time sufficent were built to cater for demand - it took Esiner/Wells/Katzenburg to turn roung the Walker/Miller no new hotel idea at WDW, where it was 15 years since the last hotel was opened (Palm/Magnolia clubhouse was extended into the Golf Resort in `73.. the Grand Floridian opened in `88).

Walt hated the cheap Motels around Disneyland, so WDW opened with 2 official Disney hotels and a campground (the other 3 were mothballed then scrapped..but thats in another thread). By the time the 90s came, and there were 12 official Disney hotels and a (twice) extended campground, we all know what International Drive and 192 looked like.

So, when EuroDisney Resort was planned, they decided to go for it and build a complete resort from day one - get in there before the rivals open off property, and capture the guests money. Even then, one hotel was mothballed, and another 2 were scrapped - 13,000 rooms worth!

When EDL opened April 12th 1992, it had 6 hotels and a campground... 2 luxury, 2 intermediate and 2 economy. Ready for the anticipated influx of guests. But April 1992 was the WORST possible time to open a new European resort.. The Gulf War, world economic slowdown (and a big european recession), strong currency against a weak dollar... not to mention a park thast could be squeezed into a long single day, misjudged guest spending habits, cultural errors and in what seemed a good idea at the time, a railway station right at the park entrance - stay off site (or in Paris, or even travel in a day on Eurostar) and just visit the park, then leave. The hotels were loosing money all over, and the largest of them all, Newport Bay, was actually mothballed over the winter months - it cost too much to run.

Things have changed now, but those HUGE debts from the early days just keep coming back. Of course, the park itself did incur debt which has now been paid off, but due to a complex legal arrangement over what parts TWDC and EDLSCA own and who owes who what, financially its a real mess. And the banks who are owed a lot of money won`t keep extending the debt forever.. Opening a lame half park to encouage another nights stay didn`t really help either....
 

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